ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

 

[Yellowtail]

Watching the video, I doubt very much it is economically viable. 

[KhunLA]

Toyota .. 

https://electrek.co/2024/03/01/toyota-says-it-would-rather-buy-credits-than-waste-money-on-evs/

[JBChiangRai]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Watching the video, I doubt very much it is economically viable. 

When you consider how much work goes into mining these rare earths for one EV battery originally (200,000 Kg) this has to be a fraction of the cost.

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

When you consider how much work goes into mining these rare earths for one EV battery originally (200,000 Kg) this has to be a fraction of the cost.

You might be right (first time for everything), but it would very much depend on what the yield is, and what the cost and longevity of the "proprietary" liquid is, and how difficult/costly it is to dispose of.  

 

If it were profitable, they would be loaded up with work, it did not look like they were, it looked to me like someone got public finding to build a facility and develop a process. 

 

The plastic is worthless, and the steel is virtually worthless. Scrap value of the Al is about $2K a ton, the Cu is about $800 and the Ni about $15K a ton. And at the point in the process shown in the video, these are nowhere near scrap value. 

 

A proper end of the process would be stacks of clean ingot, which we are not shown. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You might be right (first time for everything), but it would very much depend on what the yield is, and what the cost and longevity of the "proprietary" liquid is, and how difficult/costly it is to dispose of.  

 

If it were profitable, they would be loaded up with work, it did not look like they were, it looked to me like someone got public finding to build a facility and develop a process. 

 

The plastic is worthless, and the steel is virtually worthless. Scrap value of the Al is about $2K a ton, the Cu is about $800 and the Ni about $15K a ton. And at the point in the process shown in the video, these are nowhere near scrap value. 

 

A proper end of the process would be stacks of clean ingot, which we are not shown. 

Might have been made on day off, or before/after shift.   Had bunch of bags along the 1 wall, and a bunch of pallets staged at another wall.

[JBChiangRai]

16 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You might be right (first time for everything), but it would very much depend on what the yield is, and what the cost and longevity of the "proprietary" liquid is, and how difficult/costly it is to dispose of.  

 

If it were profitable, they would be loaded up with work, it did not look like they were, it looked to me like someone got public finding to build a facility and develop a process. 

 

The plastic is worthless, and the steel is virtually worthless. Scrap value of the Al is about $2K a ton, the Cu is about $800 and the Ni about $15K a ton. And at the point in the process shown in the video, these are nowhere near scrap value. 

 

A proper end of the process would be stacks of clean ingot, which we are not shown. 

 

 

I will rest comfortably knowing, that if I am right for the first time, it’s at least one more time than you.

[Yellowtail]

27 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Might have been made on day off, or before/after shift.   Had bunch of bags along the 1 wall, and a bunch of pallets staged at another wall.

Spotless equipment, spotless crates, spotless building, spotless bags, on spotless floor and what appears to be a pretty dirty process. 

 

The spotless bags along the wall look like they take up less than 5% of the available space. 

 

In all fairness, they might not be able to get enough batteries to make it worthwhile, and the empty two-thirds of the building may be for the rest of yet to be developed process. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

Edited April 19 by KhunLA

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

True, but the guy that fuel ⛽️ up with dino juice is indirectly paying me a 1,000 baht, which I happily 😊 spend on fuel. Combined we are doing 720 km, while you and the other solar panel users are creating massive amounts of nuclear waste 🗑 and radiation by supporting the sun 😔 😟.

I think we should have an interplanetary radiation tax for EV users.

[KhunLA]

40 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

True, but the guy that fuel ⛽️ up with dino juice is indirectly paying me a 1,000 baht, which I happily 😊 spend on fuel. Combined we are doing 720 km, while you and the other solar panel users are creating massive amounts of nuclear waste 🗑 and radiation by supporting the sun 😔 😟.

I think we should have an interplanetary radiation tax for EV users.

Works out for both of us.   You stay employed & enjoy all the comforts that come with, but then spend 1000 baht, taxes included, along with your fellow petroleum users.

 

You do realize, you're paying your company, to pay your salary, along with your extra fuel taxes, probably to pay your company's subsidies 

 

Where all I've paid is the VAT and I think I get most of that back, via road upkeep, and help with social programs, so wife gets that almost free universal healthcare here.

 

Along with saving 1000 baht, less taxes included.  About 40-50k a year, and basically will pay for our solar system, in <10 yrs, on petrol savings alone.  

 

Only difference, I have to smell your damn exhaust when out on the scooter, or strolling in a congested area.   Along with your fumes helping to dump down the masses.  Which explains quite a bit 

 

THANKS

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

So, the breakeven point to offset the EV upcharge using grid is about 190,000km, or if using MG SuperCharger 229,000km. 

[KhunLA]

26 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So, the breakeven point to offset the EV upcharge using grid is about 190,000km, or if using MG SuperCharger 229,000km. 

If you don't have solar, though much quicker than your 229k or even 190k kms.

 

Our EV cost 250k more than the ICE version, and if we save 55k a year w/solar, driving locally (20k kms), that ROI in <5 years. 

 

Apparently I was being generous with 40-50k a yr, and based on past calculation with lower petrol price.  New & revised 

 

20k kms / 360 kms = 55.5 full charges X 1000 baht

saved = 55.5k baht a year.  

250k baht / 55.5 = 4.5 years = 90k kms, with our solar

 

via PEA ... only 42k saved per year

55.5 X 232 baht = 13k less than solar savings 55k

so only 42k baht saved per year.

250k / 42k = <6 yrs / 120k kms

 

Don't forget those oil changes & tune ups, saved along the way to 90 or 120k kms; 8 or 11 oil changes & 2 full tune ups.

Edited April 19 by KhunLA

[ExpatOilWorker]

57 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Only difference, I have to smell your damn exhaust when out on the scooter, or strolling in a congested area.   Along with your fumes helping to dump down the masses.  Which explains quite a bit 

You are welcome 😊. 

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

You are welcome 😊. 

That's nice ... 😷

[KhunLA]

 

 

Edited April 19 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

53 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

If you don't have solar, though much quicker than your 229k or even 190k kms.

 

Our EV cost 250k more than the ICE version, and if we save 55k a year w/solar, driving locally (20k kms), that ROI in <5 years. 

 

Apparently I was being generous with 40-50k a yr, and based on past calculation with lower petrol price.  New & revised 

 

20k kms / 360 kms = 55.5 full charges X 1000 baht

saved = 55.5k baht a year.  

250k baht / 55.5 = 4.5 years = 90k kms, with our solar

 

via PEA ... only 42k saved per year

55.5 X 232 baht = 13k less than solar savings 55k

so only 42k baht saved per year.

250k / 42k = <6 yrs / 120k kms

 

Don't forget those oil changes & tune ups, saved along the way to 90 or 120k kms; 8 or 11 oil changes & 2 full tune ups.

On the MG website the:

MG ZS EV model D (the cheapest) is 949,000

MG ZS 100th Anniversary Model (the cheapest) is 659,900, with 4 year 100,000km warranty & (it looks like) free service

 

So, the breakeven point to offset the 289,100 EV upcharge using grid is about 135,000km, or if using MG SuperCharger 165,000km. 

 

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

Fuel cost saving is a bonus, I like EV’s because I get HyperCar performance for peanuts, I love the complete lack of NVH (noise, vibration & harshness).

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Fuel cost saving is a bonus, I like EV’s because I get HyperCar performance for peanuts, I love the complete lack of NVH (noise, vibration & harshness).

Which is fine, but you (I don't think) are on here bragging about how much money you are saving by paying 290K extra for a car. 

[herfiehandbag]

On 4/13/2024 at 12:31 PM, transam said:

But driving an MG, one has to put a bag over one's head..........😂

Donkeys years ago (when I had a proper MG), when driving in the rain the roof leaked so much a bag on your head was handy!

[JBChiangRai]

28 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Which is fine, but you (I don't think) are on here bragging about how much money you are saving by paying 290K extra for a car. 

I think your grammar is not quite right, you’re talking about somebody else I think?

 

I didn’t pay ฿290,000 extra for a car. I probably saved millions over an ICE with 530hp and sub 4 second 0-100 performance.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Here is a business idea 💡 to all you EVangelists with V2L: Road side assistance 😀 🛻.

 

Edited April 19 by ExpatOilWorker

[KhunLA]

6 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

On the MG website the:

MG ZS EV model D (the cheapest) is 949,000

MG ZS 100th Anniversary Model (the cheapest) is 659,900, with 4 year 100,000km warranty & (it looks like) free service

 

So, the breakeven point to offset the 289,100 EV upcharge using grid is about 135,000km, or if using MG SuperCharger 165,000km. 

Yes, that's what our EV cost.  And our ICE version (mid level of 3 at the time) cost 695k, on sale at the time at the entry level price, or it would have cost 739k, I think.  Top end then was 799k.  Which would be a fairer comparison, as having most of the same options as EV, except sunroof, which we don't want in TH.  Which would put it cost to 150k additions price, but we'll stick with actually numbers for us.  So that 4.5 - <6 yrs ROI is probably conservative, for a much better performing car.

 

I also rounded up the price of PEA, as nobody paid 5 baht, for easy math.  You wouldn't use MG Supercharger, unless you couldn't charge at home.  You could even use CS vendors that use off peak rates, of 5.5 baht per kWh, if really wanting to knock some baht off, about 25%.

 

Also based on 20k of local driving as what most do.   Same as ICEV owners, cost would go up when O&A, as hwy speed use more energy/fuel when maintaining constant 90kph, or trying to.  So the same for both when O&A.   Especially since off peak rates at some vendors on weekends, when you would be O&A.

 

Of course, the more you drive locally, the more you save.  When living at Udon Thani, I was putting on 70 kms a day, with 2 school runs daily, 6 days a week, 18.5k a year, (265 days) just taking the wee one to/from school for 9 months.

 

If you picked up the EV, on one of it's discounted months, (about 4 last year) cost would only be 869k, I think.  That would knock off about 2 year., making it 2.5-,4 yr ROI.

 

As stated, you're getting a more comfy ride, that performs much better than the ICE version.   The ROI and future savings is just a plus.   Really a no brainer for someone spending 20k kms or more a year in their car.

Edited April 19 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

I simply like toying with numbers.  Cost really isn't an issue, though I keep it practical.  Don't need a truck, 4X4, 7 psgr SUV. luxury or a high performance car.  Just the 2 of us.  Most of our driving isn't even necessary.

 

But if owning a car, any car, is going to put a crimp on your finances, simply live in a town/area that has decent public trans.   I guess why most expats enjoy Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Hua Hin, Pattaya, even Udon Thani had decent baht buses for cheap transport around town and surrounding area.

 

I can't deal with the congested areas, and simply enjoy the freedom & independence of a car, though realize it is a luxury expense for many now of days.   Definitely can cost as much as your housing cost.

 

A vehicle buy in, cost to operate/maintain, (especially ICE) and insure is probably one's largest monthly expense, if new car.  Especially if you trade in every 3 or 4 yrs.

 

Even keeping it 10 yr.  700k buy in, 70k a year, shy of 6k a month, before you use it.

6k car ... 200 baht a day sitting in your carport

4.5k for 91 (20k kms year)

10k+ monthly before insurance & maintenance.

333 baht a day, when buses cost 10-20 baht, though most

live in 15 minute city scenario anyway.

 

Same as most folk's monthly rent & eclectic cost, if living on the cheap.

Edited April 19 by KhunLA

[transam]

12 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Donkeys years ago (when I had a proper MG), when driving in the rain the roof leaked so much a bag on your head was handy!

MGB Roadster.......?   I remember.......🤭

[quake]

13 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Donkeys years ago (when I had a proper MG), when driving in the rain the roof leaked so much a bag on your head was handy!

 

Maybe.

 

[Gweiloman]

13 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Donkeys years ago (when I had a proper MG), when driving in the rain the roof leaked so much a bag on your head was handy!

Ah yes, I remember it well. Those were the days when it was a wholly owned British company. They sure know something about building cars in those days. 

[KhunLA]

 Nice, and it's the base model.   Cost about the same as imported ICEV from JP.

 

513 kms range and WLTP is usually quite accurate, and that's easily 5 hrs on Thai roads, if you can manage an average of 80 kph, and with 6.1 sec to 100 kph 👍

 

Think y'all running out of reason not to go EV.  BYD or Tesla ... pick one.

 

[Pogust]

Conversation with people who really know the facts around EVs and Hydrogen vehicles. Possibilities and limits. Take the time to listen.

 

 

Edited April 24 by Pogust

[JBChiangRai]

18 minutes ago, Pogust said:

Conversation with people who really know the facts around EVs and Hydrogen vehicles. Possibilities and limits. Take the time to listen.

 

 

 

Sorry but I would need a synopsis, I am not watching 1 hour 40 minutes.