Engine seize

[Woof999]

Afternoon all,

 

I wont name brands or specific garages just yet but...

 

I'm a little lax at checking oil and getting a service exactly when needed. However I do check oil occasionally and top up. I certainly haven't done this in the last few months (that bit was for full disclosure).

 

On Friday of last week we took our SUV into the main dealer (that we have used many times) to diagnose and fix a problem with engine power under load and at speeds > 70kph (likely fuel starvation). An hour or so later we received a list of about 30 things that could do with being changed (suspension rubbers, gators and a few other bits that I can't translate), plus an air filter, fuel filter and a couple of odds and sods. At that time I asked if there was anything else that needed does immediately and was told "no".

 

Today (Monday), on the second use of the car, the engine started making loud banging noises (something like I'd expect big ends to make), so the car was stopped immediately and taken on the back of a wagon to the main dealer. Almost zero oil, engine seizing, belts stripping.... probably lots of damage. I asked the main dealer if they checked the oil on Friday and they said "no, why didn't you check the oil!". I said... we came to the main dealer, I would expect you to check the oil and water as an absolute minimum any time the car comes to you. They replied "we only checked the things you asked us to". To this I replied, "so why did I get a list of about 30 items that need changing, none of which were urgent, and none of which included you checking the oil?".

 

I am first to admit that the car is my responsibility and that it was likely due a service a while ago. However, shouldn't a main dealer (or any garage for that matter) be checking oil and water every single time a car is in for work, especially if that work is engine related?

 

Engine is currently being "investigated" to assess the amount of damage, but so far the main dealer has done nothing except say we should have checked the oil. Not expecting anything other than to have to pay full price for the repair (or scrap the car) at which point my brand allegiance will take a detour.

 

Thoughts? Thanks.

[Kwasaki]

Why didn't the oil light come on to warn you. 

[Woof999]

Very good question but I have no idea. It definitely wasn't on.

[Kwasaki]

30 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Very good question but I have no idea. It definitely wasn't on.

I find it difficult to believe to have little oil in the engine. 

No signs of leaks. 

No sign of smoke from exhaust.

Also the garage whoever hadn't checked the oil especially when they had checked everything else out to find a list of faults. 

[Woof999]

Yep. Back in the UK I used to do a lot of my own engine work. Too old for it now (clearly as I didn't even think about oil light not being on).

 

Definitely no oily smoke. Car has only ever used "normal" oil levels till now. No signs of oil leaks (it's parked in the same spot on the same drive every night) and no oil light.

 

What I'm utterly miffed at is that the garage has immediately said, no oil, you should have checked, all down to you, just 72 hours after they worked on it. If that remains the case, I'll definitely have my wife phone the manufacturer and ask them if it's acceptable for one of their main dealers to not check oil level while doing work on the car.

[Kwasaki]

28 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Yep. Back in the UK I used to do a lot of my own engine work. Too old for it now (clearly as I didn't even think about oil light not being on).

 

Definitely no oily smoke. Car has only ever used "normal" oil levels till now. No signs of oil leaks (it's parked in the same spot on the same drive every night) and no oil light.

 

What I'm utterly miffed at is that the garage has immediately said, no oil, you should have checked, all down to you, just 72 hours after they worked on it. If that remains the case, I'll definitely have my wife phone the manufacturer and ask them if it's acceptable for one of their main dealers to not check oil level while doing work on the car.

The only thing I can come up with is the oil pump packed up and the oil light didn't work but that doesn't explain the oil loss. 

Maybe @transam can come with something. 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

You should consider the possibility that the shop on your original visit drained the oil and wanted to change the oil. But then they forgot to fill it up.

Or maybe a lose oil screw or something were the oil came out.

I don't say this is what happened but TiT so anything is possible.

 

In terms of service: Never expect that they do anything! 

I had my KTM bike for service at the official KTM dealer. They had to change the oil and they asked me which oil I want. I told them: look in the manual, it's written there and use that.

And then I asked them why they ask. It seems lots of customers want to save money and want only cheap oil. TiT!

[overherebc]

How old is the vehicle and what's the mileage?

[Woof999]

8 years. 117k km. Just had some photos sent with the sump removed. Oil is as black as a black thing and like tar.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Woof999

[Woof999]

16 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

You should consider the possibility that the shop on your original visit drained the oil and wanted to change the oil. But then they forgot to fill it up.

Or maybe a lose oil screw or something were the oil came out.

I don't say this is what happened but TiT so anything is possible.

 

In terms of service: Never expect that they do anything! 

I had my KTM bike for service at the official KTM dealer. They had to change the oil and they asked me which oil I want. I told them: look in the manual, it's written there and use that.

And then I asked them why they ask. It seems lots of customers want to save money and want only cheap oil. TiT!

Been here 7 years now and still can't get used to how things work, or don't work.

[overherebc]

1 minute ago, Woof999 said:

8 years. 117k km. Just had some photos sent with the sump removed. Oil is as black as a black thing and like tar.

That sounds like very old oil. Thinking if it's really thick your warning light switch would be stuck

( didn't come on ) and the oil pump probably packed in as well.

What does the inside of the oil filter look like?

[Ralf001]

"Almost zero oil, engine seizing, belts stripping".

 

Was an attempt made to start vehicle start again ?

 

What belts were stripping ?

[steve187]

when was its last oil change and what was the km reading

 

maybe cam belt snapped

Edited January 17, 2022 by steve187

[OneMoreFarang]

14 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Been here 7 years now and still can't get used to how things work, or don't work.

Just never leave Thailand and never visit a developed country. After a while you get used to it - or at least you are not surprised anymore. 

[Nojohndoe]

26 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

You should consider the possibility that the shop on your original visit drained the oil and wanted to change the oil. But then they forgot to fill it up.

Or maybe a lose oil screw or something were the oil came out.

I don't say this is what happened but TiT so anything is possible.

 

In terms of service: Never expect that they do anything! 

I had my KTM bike for service at the official KTM dealer. They had to change the oil and they asked me which oil I want. I told them: look in the manual, it's written there and use that.

And then I asked them why they ask. It seems lots of customers want to save money and want only cheap oil. TiT!

Took my old hilux in for an oil change today. Asked me what oil and I said same grade as original specification because I know Castrol GTX meets that but is also the cheapest. There is always the attempt at  "upsell" for  better profit margins.

But your suggestion as to possible error in draining sump and failure to replace is a possible but  for sure will never be admitted to is so!

 

[overherebc]

8 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

"Almost zero oil, engine seizing, belts stripping".

 

Was an attempt made to start vehicle start again ?

 

What belts were stripping ?

Belts stripping sounds like pos' twin cam belt lost teeth and onecam stopped turning. Banging could be piston hitting a valve if that happens..

[Nojohndoe]

7 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

"Almost zero oil, engine seizing, belts stripping".

 

Was an attempt made to start vehicle start again ?

 

What belts were stripping ?

Cam shaft seize and timing belt  maybe? I had it happen on a toyota straight six sitting at idle. Twisted the cam enough to alter previous smooth idle but  did not strip or  jump timing belt.

[Ralf001]

3 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Belts stripping sounds like pos' twin cam belt lost teeth and onecam stopped turning. Banging could be piston hitting a valve if that happens..

 

2 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

Cam shaft seize and timing belt  maybe? I had it happen on a toyota straight six sitting at idle. Twisted the cam enough to alter previous smooth idle but  did not strip or  jump timing belt.

 

What engine has an exposed cam belt, or did the OP pull the covers in the side of the road ?

[overherebc]

4 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

 

What engine has an exposed cam belt, or did the OP pull the covers in the side of the road ?

Many engines have belts driving the cams from the pulley wheel on the front of the crankshaft and that is outside the engine block as it's also used to drive the alternator and air-con.

Maybe your thinking of the chain drive cams that are internal so they get lubrication.

Edited January 17, 2022 by overherebc

[Nojohndoe]

1 minute ago, Ralf001 said:

 

 

What engine has an exposed cam belt, or did the OP pull the covers in the side of the road ?

 

6 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

 

What engine has an exposed cam belt, or did the OP pull the covers in the side of the road ?

Who is suggesting an exposed  timing belt? The speculation is consideration of a failure quite possibly involving the timing belt .  Given that the more recent visual information describes a very sludged up sump may support the agency in denial of  any culpability. Of interest is the  current owner the original or was the vehicle second hand?

[Lacessit]

40 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

8 years. 117k km. Just had some photos sent with the sump removed. Oil is as black as a black thing and like tar.

Oil is supposed to be changed on most cars every 10,000 km. As my car is older ( 16 years ) I change the oil every 5000 km.

To get oil to be like tar, it's highly probable the oil has never been changed since the vehicle rolled off the showroom floor.

There's a component in the engine block called a dipstick. It goes into the sump. It's used to check the oil level, and observe how clean the oil is.

TBH, the OP's problems sound to me as if they arise from total ignorance of the way an ICE works, and the necessity for regular maintenance. Engines with 117,000 km on them don't break down unless they have been badly abused.

I don't know how much of the problem is attributable to the garages, but IMO the OP has contributed substantially.

 

[Gulfsailor]

Is there a turbo charger? If the oil is very old it could fail possibly sending bits into the engine. But you would have heard some awful noise before the clanking in the engine. 

[Ralf001]

35 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Many engines have belts driving the cams from the pulley wheel on the front of the crankshaft and that is outside the engine block as it's also used to drive the alternator and air-con.

Maybe your thinking of the chain drive cams that are internal so they get lubrication.

Which engines have a cam belt that also drives alternator and aircon ?

[Ralf001]

26 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

 

Who is suggesting an exposed  timing belt? The speculation is consideration of a failure quite possibly involving the timing belt .  Given that the more recent visual information describes a very sludged up sump may support the agency in denial of  any culpability. Of interest is the  current owner the original or was the vehicle second hand?

The OP specifically mentioned "stripped belts".

 

just trying to sort fact from fiction.

[overherebc]

53 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

Which engines have a cam belt that also drives alternator and aircon ?

Read carefully. I didn't say that. I was referring to the pulley wheel on the end of the crankshaft. Some engines that pulley has 2 or 3 belts on. On my car it drives the fan the air-con and the alternator and the power steering. Lots of different configurations.

There was an american V8 engine, maybe a Dodge, that was fitted with one belt that did everything. Became known as the fan belt from hell. If that snapped then absolutely everything stopped. Wasn't a real success.

Diagram of a camshaft drive belt that drives the water and oil pump on a Lotus engine att'

Edited January 17, 2022 by overherebc

[Ralf001]

19 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Read carefully.

 

 

Read my first post about belts carefully.

 

 

[overherebc]

11 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

Read my first post about belts carefully.

 

 

Some cambelts have an easily removable clip on cover so maybe he did have a look.

[overherebc]

Might have been the Dodge Challenger that had this wonder.

Edited January 17, 2022 by overherebc

[pseudorabies]

2 hours ago, Nojohndoe said:

Took my old hilux in for an oil change today. Asked me what oil and I said same grade as original specification because I know Castrol GTX meets that but is also the cheapest. There is always the attempt at  "upsell" for  better profit margins.

But your suggestion as to possible error in draining sump and failure to replace is a possible but  for sure will never be admitted to is so!

 

And then you're left wondering if you actually got the oil you requested.  On every motorcycle I've owned it's been easy to distinguish good synthetic oil like Motul or Mobil1 from dino oil by the way the transmission shifts.  On my last oil change I requested Motul synthetic but I'm pretty sure that is not what I got.

[Woof999]

Yes it's a turbo diesel. Cam & aux belts were changed by the same dealer within the last 3 years I think (certainly no more than 4).

 

Looking at the photos it is almost certainly old oil that should have been changed ages ago. As I mentioned, my only real beef is that I believe a main dealer should check and advise on oil levels at every visit regardless.

 

The car was only worth 450k baht tops. Maybe 330 from a dealer. Not much point in guessing what work needs doing, but I would think a total bottom end rebuild (big end bearings, piston rings, maybe some crankshaft work, valve stem seals, all the gaskets, oil pump etc etc). I'm guessing this is going to come to around 150k.

 

Should the dealer offer a decent sized discount for having the car in their possession 3 days earlier and not bothering to check something so basic (that I have my hands up was my responsibility to check too).

 

It's a Pajero Sport by the way.