The Silent, Vaccinated, Impatient Majority

[scorecard]

On 1/19/2022 at 9:40 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

On 1/19/2022 at 9:41 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m only surprised anyone believing  Q-duff reveals themselves in public.

 

On the upside, at least it’s obvious who to avoid.

What is Q-duff?

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Anything that comes out of or can be traced back to Q-Anon.

 

 

[onthedarkside]

A series of posts with a totally off-topic diversion into world religions has been removed.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/21/2022 at 5:42 PM, placeholder said:

As any epidemiolgist will tell you, you need to compare similar populations. So, tell us, how did Sweden's mortality compare to its neighbors to the east, west, and south? Namely Finland, Norway, and Denmark? They imposed very strict restrictions. Here's your answer

 

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/sweden

I believe Sweden has a higher population than the others you quote, so a more relevant statistic would be as a % of population.

As always, statistics can mean whatever one wants them to.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:09 PM, Lacessit said:

It is exactly the same as the topic of global warming/climate change, a matter of scientific fact against belief.

LOL.

 

However, IMO there are similarities between the climate change story and the covid story. Certainly the same posters seem to be aligned on both stories re for and against.

[Jeffr2]

28 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL.

 

However, IMO there are similarities between the climate change story and the covid story. Certainly the same posters seem to be aligned on both stories re for and against.

Yeah.  Those who follow the science and those who don't.

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I believe Sweden has a higher population than the others you quote, so a more relevant statistic would be as a % of population.

As always, statistics can mean whatever one wants them to.

Which is why the statistic I cited is "deaths per million people".

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by onthedarkside
trollling comments removed

[placeholder]

57 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL.

 

However, IMO there are similarities between the climate change story and the covid story. Certainly the same posters seem to be aligned on both stories re for and against.

Well, when the position one subscribes to is contrary to science, you either change your position or you continue subscribing to falsehoods. A common way such denialists have of coping with contrary evidence is to come up with statements like "As always, statistics can mean whatever one wants them to."

Gven that modern science is virtually all based on statistics, such an observation is profoundly and remarkably clueless.

Edited January 26, 2022 by placeholder

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

Which is why the statistic I cited is "deaths per million people".

There are some statistics which are impossible to explain away. For example, the statistical data that says a smoker is 20 times more likely to die of lung cancer than a non-smoker, although the tobacco industry gave it one hell of a shot over decades trying to explain that inconvenient number.

 

Similarly, anti-vaxxers find it difficult to explain the statistic that says if they get COVID, they are far more likely to occupy a hospital bed or ICU than a vaccinated person. They are far more likely to be spreading COVID, because the duration of the illness is longer, and the symptoms more severe.  And they wonder why vaccinated people get impatient.

[cdemundo]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I believe Sweden has a higher population than the others you quote, so a more relevant statistic would be as a % of population.

As always, statistics can mean whatever one wants them to.

If you prefer testimonial evidence take a close look an the Herman Cain Awards on reddit.

You will find like-minded people, expressing the same views you express.

You can then follow their posts and the posts of their loved ones as they descend through the hell of Covid disease and ultimately "get their angels wings" followed by family setting up a Gofundme to pay for hospital and burial costs.

[rattlesnake]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:09 AM, Lacessit said:

IMO it is impossible to reconcile vaccinated and wilfully unvaccinated. It is exactly the same as the topic of global warming/climate change, a matter of scientific fact against belief.

Changing belief is a Sisyphean  undertaking. 50% of Americans still believe in angels, and 1.4 billion Muslims believe their religion supersedes all others that preceded it.

Anti-vaxxers are very lucky coronavirus has a low death rate. They seem to be oblivious to the danger of long COVID, which affects the unvaccinated disproportionately. It would be interesting to see what would happen to beliefs if a variant with a 40% death rate stopped by.

 

 May I ask you to give me your definition of science?

 

Thanks in advance.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, placeholder said:

Which is why the statistic I cited is "deaths per million people".

 

Apologies- I misread your diagram. Yes Sweden has, according to the chart, a higher death rate.

[thaibeachlovers]

31 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

If you prefer testimonial evidence take a close look an the Herman Cain Awards on reddit.

You will find like-minded people, expressing the same views you express.

You can then follow their posts and the posts of their loved ones as they descend through the hell of Covid disease and ultimately "get their angels wings" followed by family setting up a Gofundme to pay for hospital and burial costs.

People die, always have and always will. Some will die of covid and some will die because they can't drink safe water.

Life is unfair, and no one gave us a guarantee of a long and happy life.

Ultimately, life sucks and there are not many winners. It is what it is- end of.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Lacessit said:

There are some statistics which are impossible to explain away. For example, the statistical data that says a smoker is 20 times more likely to die of lung cancer than a non-smoker, although the tobacco industry gave it one hell of a shot over decades trying to explain that inconvenient number.

 

Similarly, anti-vaxxers find it difficult to explain the statistic that says if they get COVID, they are far more likely to occupy a hospital bed or ICU than a vaccinated person. They are far more likely to be spreading COVID, because the duration of the illness is longer, and the symptoms more severe.  And they wonder why vaccinated people get impatient.

and if I get married I have a 50% chance of getting divorced. It's just life, and life isn't fair. People die of all sorts of things and statistically not many will die of covid out of 8 billion.

IMO it wasn't worth the damage they did trying to stop it, and the unintended consequences of lockdowns will still be destroying lives for decades to come.

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

People die, always have and always will. Some will die of covid and some will die because they can't drink safe water.

Life is unfair, and no one gave us a guarantee of a long and happy life.

Ultimately, life sucks and there are not many winners. It is what it is- end of.

Terrible analogy. Covid deaths are preventable.  Sad some are against current options to prevent these deaths.

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and if I get married I have a 50% chance of getting divorced. It's just life, and life isn't fair. People die of all sorts of things and statistically not many will die of covid out of 8 billion.

IMO it wasn't worth the damage they did trying to stop it, and the unintended consequences of lockdowns will still be destroying lives for decades to come.

And the thousands of deaths happening due to covid every day are destroying the lives of millions for decades to come.  Much more devastating to them than just being told not to go to the bar for a few months.

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and if I get married I have a 50% chance of getting divorced. It's just life, and life isn't fair. People die of all sorts of things and statistically not many will die of covid out of 8 billion.

IMO it wasn't worth the damage they did trying to stop it, and the unintended consequences of lockdowns will still be destroying lives for decades to come.

The nurses in Australia are complaining that they are still in crisis and not coping. That's the only statistic that matters and lock downs or otherwise should be determined by medical experts, not politicians or uninformed pundits on the internet. Far, far, far more lives are being destroyed by the virus that vaccinations. We don't know what variant is causing the deaths and hospitalisations in Australia but it doesn't matter. They are still happening. Australia today has thousands of people in hospital, hundreds in ICU and about a hundred deaths.

 

In what way are lives "being destroyed" that overtakes those figures in importance? That's just political claptrap. 10% of Australia's population have now had the virus and a good many of those have long covid symptoms which effectively prevent them from working or functioning normally.

 

source: Radio National today.

Edited January 27, 2022 by ozimoron

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

People die, always have and always will. Some will die of covid and some will die because they can't drink safe water.

Life is unfair, and no one gave us a guarantee of a long and happy life.

Ultimately, life sucks and there are not many winners. It is what it is- end of.

It’s no longer the Middle Ages, science and medicine have progressed. 
 

Many of the formerly common diseases and causes of death are now curable or avoidable.

 

Your characteristic view that ‘life sucks’ ignores the fact it hands down beats the alternative.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and if I get married I have a 50% chance of getting divorced. It's just life, and life isn't fair. People die of all sorts of things and statistically not many will die of covid out of 8 billion.

IMO it wasn't worth the damage they did trying to stop it, and the unintended consequences of lockdowns will still be destroying lives for decades to come.

Tens of millions of people will carry the grief brought by COVID for the rest of their life.

 

Sorry for the inconvenience you’ve suffered.

[thaibeachlovers]

55 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s no longer the Middle Ages, science and medicine have progressed. 
 

Many of the formerly common diseases and causes of death are now curable or avoidable.

 

Your characteristic view that ‘life sucks’ ignores the fact it hands down beats the alternative.

Obviously never had cancer then! The surgery for my "uncurable" cancer ruined my life. I consider that to qualify for a "life sucks" attitude.

Before you try to say that the surgery "cured" me, it didn't- it just stopped me dying then. If I had the option over again I would not have surgery, even if I died. Some things ARE worse than death.

[thaibeachlovers]

56 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Tens of millions of people will carry the grief brought by COVID for the rest of their life.

 

Sorry for the inconvenience you’ve suffered.

Given that I might join them now that covid has escaped into the community in NZ, nice try, but no cigar.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

The nurses in Australia are complaining that they are still in crisis and not coping. That's the only statistic that matters and lock downs or otherwise should be determined by medical experts, not politicians or uninformed pundits on the internet. Far, far, far more lives are being destroyed by the virus that vaccinations. We don't know what variant is causing the deaths and hospitalisations in Australia but it doesn't matter. They are still happening. Australia today has thousands of people in hospital, hundreds in ICU and about a hundred deaths.

 

In what way are lives "being destroyed" that overtakes those figures in importance? That's just political claptrap. 10% of Australia's population have now had the virus and a good many of those have long covid symptoms which effectively prevent them from working or functioning normally.

 

source: Radio National today.

While it's far too late to solve the nurse problem now, I sincerely hope the politicians responsible for allowing that situation to happen are punished at the next election. They've had at least 18 months to train enough nurses, but did nothing that I, or the nurses I know are aware of to recruit more local nurses. All that has happened is that, as I understand it, the overseas nurses that used to staff the hospitals were not able to enter the country because of covid restrictions- apparently they were not "essential" enough. Local people should have been incentivized to train instead. They didn't even get a decent pay rise till recently.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously never had cancer then! The surgery for my "uncurable" cancer ruined my life. I consider that to qualify for a "life sucks" attitude.

Before you try to say that the surgery "cured" me, it didn't- it just stopped me dying then. If I had the option over again I would not have surgery, even if I died. Some things ARE worse than death.

I’m genuinely sorry to hear of your cancer.

 

It does not change the fact, there is absolutely no need to suffer very many illnesses and wrt to COVID, tge chances of serious illness, hospitalization and death can be dramatically reduced with safe and effective vaccines.

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously never had cancer then! The surgery for my "uncurable" cancer ruined my life. I consider that to qualify for a "life sucks" attitude.

Before you try to say that the surgery "cured" me, it didn't- it just stopped me dying then. If I had the option over again I would not have surgery, even if I died. Some things ARE worse than death.

Are you in daily physical pain? That would be the only reason to say cancer is worse than death. Mental pain may well be self-inflicted.

I've had four or five surgeries for bladder cancer, two for squamous cell carcinomas. I also have chronic lymphocytic leukemia, which may or may not be compromising my immune system.

It's about quality of life. If that is bad, I agree, life would suck for me as well. I'm just not sure how your statement relates to a pandemic which for the majority of people is entirely preventable.

 

[Scott]

23 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously never had cancer then! The surgery for my "uncurable" cancer ruined my life. I consider that to qualify for a "life sucks" attitude.

Before you try to say that the surgery "cured" me, it didn't- it just stopped me dying then. If I had the option over again I would not have surgery, even if I died. Some things ARE worse than death.

I am very sorry that you had such an unfortunate and life-altering disease.   Cancer is a good example of what happens when our immune system isn't working particularly well.  One of the jobs it does is to destroy (actually it usually sends a signal to the cell to kill itself -- that's called apoptosis) those cells.   Since we have trillions of cells and most of those cells are dividing and producing new cells, mutations occur regularly and that results in a consistent crop of cancer cells which are killed.  It's done by the same immune system fighting viruses like covid.  Like Covid, when conditions are ripe, the immune system can no longer do its job.   With cancer, the immune system is tricked into not recognizing the cancerous cells, in Covid, the system is simply overwhelmed.   

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:09 PM, Lacessit said:

IMO it is impossible to reconcile vaccinated and wilfully unvaccinated. It is exactly the same as the topic of global warming/climate change, a matter of scientific fact against belief.

Changing belief is a Sisyphean  undertaking. 50% of Americans still believe in angels, and 1.4 billion Muslims believe their religion supersedes all others that preceded it.

Anti-vaxxers are very lucky coronavirus has a low death rate. They seem to be oblivious to the danger of long COVID, which affects the unvaccinated disproportionately. It would be interesting to see what would happen to beliefs if a variant with a 40% death rate stopped by.

I agree 100% with your first 2 sentences. However, I fundamentally disagree that it's "a matter of scientific fact against belief". Those that believe in the "science", IMO have not presented it in a way that is convincing enough to be believed by many. Shouting at us and spouting insults do nothing to change our mind.

Such was not the case with the ozone hole, and I doubt anyone came out against the real and apparently effective solution. As with climate change, the pro vaccine demographic need to do a better job of presenting their side to get everyone on board. As an example, I refused to get Pfizer as I don't trust the "science" on it, but when an alternative was finally approved and available, I signed up as soon as able to and have had my second dose of the same ( NOT Pfizer ) vaccine. I will be having the booster in due course. So I'm NOT anti vaccine at all- just anti Pfizer.

 

My laugh icon was for the second to last sentence- I doubt many are "oblivious" to anything to do with covid..

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/27/2022 at 7:11 AM, Jeffr2 said:

And the thousands of deaths happening due to covid every day are destroying the lives of millions for decades to come.  Much more devastating to them than just being told not to go to the bar for a few months.

 Lockdowns are about more than not going to the bar for a few months.

People have lost their life savings, their businesses, their lives have been ruined and they didn't even have the disease, all due to lockdowns.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Are you in daily physical pain? That would be the only reason to say cancer is worse than death. Mental pain may well be self-inflicted.

I've had four or five surgeries for bladder cancer, two for squamous cell carcinomas. I also have chronic lymphocytic leukemia, which may or may not be compromising my immune system.

It's about quality of life. If that is bad, I agree, life would suck for me as well. I'm just not sure how your statement relates to a pandemic which for the majority of people is entirely preventable.

 

It didn't relate to the pandemic at all. It was in response to a specific statement by another poster with which I disagreed enough to respond in the way I did.

I sympathise with you about your medical problems, but I fundamentally disagree that mental anguish is a "self inflicted" problem.

I'm not going into the specific problems I have post op, but they are easily found with google as a side effect of prostatectomy, and are a constant reminder of everything I lost.

 

BTW, medical treatment for prostate cancer has progressed dramatically since I had my op many years ago, and had I needed treatment today, I'm sure I would be significantly less impacted. So just in case anyone was worrying about what I said, don't let that put you off seeking medical help.

[Jeffr2]

14 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Lockdowns are about more than not going to the bar for a few months.

People have lost their life savings, their businesses, their lives have been ruined and they didn't even have the disease, all due to lockdowns.

 I'm well aware of the impact of lockdowns. And in the end, they are not much worse than the impact of the virus raging through the community. People have lost their lives, their families, their businesses, their parents. No easy answers.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

 

37 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree 100% with your first 2 sentences. However, I fundamentally disagree that it's "a matter of scientific fact against belief". Those that believe in the "science", IMO have not presented it in a way that is convincing enough to be believed by many. Shouting at us and spouting insults do nothing to change our mind.

Such was not the case with the ozone hole, and I doubt anyone came out against the real and apparently effective solution. As with climate change, the pro vaccine demographic need to do a better job of presenting their side to get everyone on board. As an example, I refused to get Pfizer as I don't trust the "science" on it, but when an alternative was finally approved and available, I signed up as soon as able to and have had my second dose of the same ( NOT Pfizer ) vaccine. I will be having the booster in due course. So I'm NOT anti vaccine at all- just anti Pfizer.

 

My laugh icon was for the second to last sentence- I doubt many are "oblivious" to anything to do with covid..

But it is a matter of scientific fact versus belief. Which has been presented properly. You just don't seem to want to accept it. So, it's down to a shouting match for the minority who are against the science, sadly!

 

Only 2 ways to deal with covid skeptics now. Positive (rewards) or negative (mandates) incentives. Nothing else can be done to change their minds.

 

Pfizer is a proven vaccine. Sad some can't get past this. I'm guessing it's due to the information they are reading on social media.