3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Haven't watched it yet, but worth remembering that despite it killing multi millions of people back when there were no antibiotics, no ventilators or ICUs as we know them today, and medical science at that time was more involved with war related injuries and diseases, the human race survived and flourished to the extent that another 20 million or so lives could be wasted in yet another world war only 20 years or so later.

The vid is comments from folk who try and develop stuff to save life.... Recommended...????

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Haven't watched it yet, but worth remembering that despite it killing multi millions of people back when there were no antibiotics, no ventilators or ICUs as we know them today, and medical science at that time was more involved with war related injuries and diseases, the human race survived and flourished to the extent that another 20 million or so lives could be wasted in yet another world war only 20 years or so later.

You make an excellent point...

Just kidding.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041182/life-expectancy-new-zealand-all-time/#:~:text=Life expectancy in New Zealand was just over 34 in,82 by the year 2020.

5 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

Nobody ever suggested that science can't be wrong. The climate change denialists and vaccine dodgers would have it that science is always wrong. It is the low information, anti science zealots who exhibit the religious fervor, not the other way round. You're just projecting here.

 

Science frequently changes as new information is discovered. You can see that in action every day is the major newspapers and science journals. For example, some scientists are now postulating that there is life on Mars and others are skeptical but neither side is claiming they are right.

 

On the other hand the climate denialist and anti vaccine idiots are never going to change their mind. They never do. I have yet to see a single one of those two (very related) groups ever admit they were wrong.

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

“Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.”

 

And in one sentence you completely undermine your use of the term ‘Dogma’.

 

The continuing refinement of scientific knowledge is it’s strength and one that is openly accepted by followers of science.

 

If you have an alternative to science, let’s be having it.
 

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Haven't watched it yet, but worth remembering that despite it killing multi millions of people back when there were no antibiotics, no ventilators or ICUs as we know them today, and medical science at that time was more involved with war related injuries and diseases, the human race survived and flourished to the extent that another 20 million or so lives could be wasted in yet another world war only 20 years or so later.

Very bizarre thing to say.  No remorse for the milti millions who died?  And the families left behind?

 

You really should watch that video....

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

A great deal of similarity because those who fall for the fake news, don't care, or don't believe in science are covid and climate change deniers.  Same kind of person.  Same mentality.

 

The rest of us believe in science.  Probably due to their efforts, you're still alive.

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Serious question. If he has no symptoms, why would he want to "know for sure" and have a test, when a false positive will cause him and family all sorts of problems?

 

I think you've misunderstood me. If he gets tested, and has a viable antibody count, that is reassurance he has acquired some immunity. That's a problem?

I don't know the incidence of false positives with PCR tests. RAT/ATK tests, IMO false positives are virtually impossible. False negatives are quite frequent in poorly designed kits, as the Thai health authorities found out with the Lepu brand.

 

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

I think you've misunderstood me. If he gets tested, and has a viable antibody count, that is reassurance he has acquired some immunity. That's a problem?

I don't know the incidence of false positives with PCR tests. RAT/ATK tests, IMO false positives are virtually impossible. False negatives are quite frequent in poorly designed kits, as the Thai health authorities found out with the Lepu brand.

 

Some friends had a family Xmas get together in Europe.  25 people or so.  All were required to get tested before coming.  Just to make sure and not infect each other.  Makes sense.

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I think you've misunderstood me. If he gets tested, and has a viable antibody count, that is reassurance he has acquired some immunity. That's a problem?

I don't know the incidence of false positives with PCR tests. RAT/ATK tests, IMO false positives are virtually impossible. False negatives are quite frequent in poorly designed kits, as the Thai health authorities found out with the Lepu brand.

 

If I were in LOS I'd not be putting much faith in a test that might result in me having to pay to be isolated in some hotel at my own expense. There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding such on other subforums.

I'd be avoiding taking the chance, UNLESS I had symptoms or was required to have one for some reason that I could not avoid.

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

If I were in LOS I'd not be putting much faith in a test that might result in me having to pay to be isolated in some hotel at my own expense. There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding such on other subforums.

I'd be avoiding taking the chance, UNLESS I had symptoms or was required to have one for some reason that I could not avoid.

I know several that have tested positive recently.  All were allowed to quarantine at home.  Seems the big problem is if you test positive on arrival.  But not while you are here.  Unless very sick of course.

 

The Thai government is actually telling you to just stay home if you have coivd and it's not severe.

"When free and efficient drugs are available, should people be able to renounce it without consequences ... while we struggle to take care of other patients?" Paris AP-HP hospitals system chief Martin Hirsch said on French television on Wednesday.

 

Hirsch said he raised the issue because health costs are exploding and that the irresponsible behaviour of some should not jeopardise the availability of the system for everyone else.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/paris-hospitals-chief-sparks-debate-whether-unvaccinated-patients-should-pay-2022-01-27/

7 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You're a decent person, we happen to think differently,

yes, we do .   but we both are civil in our disagreement   LOL

 

as you know,  i am out biking and walking, also in close contact with workers and shop workers as we just built a house.

the mrs and me are still 100%  healthy and believe our natural immune system is the best long term preventative.     

I understand many older folk have medical issues and if they think that taking those "safe and effective"  shots are the right solution for them i have no quarrel. 

 

ok..... go back to my other forum

take care and enjoy life

3 hours ago, rumak said:

yes, we do .   but we both are civil in our disagreement   LOL

 

  as you know,  i am out biking and walking, also in close contact with workers and shop workers as we just built a house.

the mrs and me are still 100%  healthy and believe our natural immune system is the best long term preventative.     

I understand many older folk have medical issues and if they think that taking those "safe and effective"  shots are the right solution for them i have no quarrel. 

 

ok..... go back to my other forum

take care and enjoy life

There's the problem.  Your natural immune system isn't the best option.  People who think like this are extending the pandemic and putting the lives of those around them at risk.  And it's got nothing to do with age.

 

This has nothing to do with MSM messaging.  It's all about the science.

 

And yes, the unvaccinated are the main spreaders of covid now.  That's a proven fact.

49 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If I were in LOS I'd not be putting much faith in a test that might result in me having to pay to be isolated in some hotel at my own expense. There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding such on other subforums.

I'd be avoiding taking the chance, UNLESS I had symptoms or was required to have one for some reason that I could not avoid.

I was referring to having the infection, getting over it, and getting tested a month or whatever afterwards.

I went to Mengrai Labs in Chiang Rai, and asked to be tested for COVID antibodies. That was two weeks after my second vaccination. Result 64 U/mL. No vaccine police hauled me off to hospital.

 

OTOH, when myself and my GF tested positive with RAT kits, we were given one hour to assemble our belongings for a 14 day stay in a quarantine ward. Which did not cost me a single baht.

 

IMO the Thai government would do itself a tourism favor by allowing foreigners to choose between a private and a public hospital for quarantine, although I have to say the public facilities were quite spartan.

 

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

Unfortunately, the new information in relation to climate change is trending to worse model predictions, not better.

 

Back on topic, vaccines make progress too, based on new information. Novavax has just been approved for use in Australia.

 

I suppose some in the medical science field are wondering if it is possible to come up with a vaccine that would be acceptable to anti-vaxxers. Or perhaps the dogma of anti-vaxxers would never allow it.

A number of posts have been removed or edited for personal bickering with other forum members, misinformation, conspiracy trolling and off-topic comments.

 

As has been cautioned before here, please discuss and debate the topic, and not personal opinions of other forum members.

 

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there is a great deal of similarity between the covid dogma and the climate change dogma. I use "dogma" because the proponents of both appear to exhibit religious like fervour.

Of course the dialogue is somewhat different, but IMO both are wont to refer to "science" as the ultimate truth which can never be wrong.

Somewhere along the line they overlooked that science is never fixed, and changes as new information is discovered.

 

What they also fail to understand is that there is no scientific consensus on these issues, even if institutionalized media claim otherwise. The fact that dissenting scientists are silenced does not make them any less real or relevant.

9 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Here’s the difference between ‘faith/dogma’ and following the science.

 

When the data becomes more complete,  the science is updated and a new understanding follows.

 

Revision and refinement are fundamental to science, and the absolute antithesis of religion and religious faith/dogma.

 

 

Yes and as I said, science proponents can exhibit behaviours akin to faith and dogma. Just as a religious person can exercise critical thinking and open-mindedness.

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

What they also fail to understand is that there is no scientific consensus on these issues, even if institutionalized media claim otherwise. The fact that dissenting scientists are silenced does not make them any less real or relevant.

Wrong. Their is scientific consensus on these issues. You keep falling back to dodgy people posting only on social media. Whom are banned for very good reasons.

 

16 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

What they also fail to understand is that there is no scientific consensus on these issues, even if institutionalized media claim otherwise. The fact that dissenting scientists are silenced does not make them any less real or relevant.

The scientific consensus does not rely upon unanimous agreement, there are always dissenting views, mostly on in matters of nuance or detail, occasionally on whole parts of scientific theory.

 

The existence of dissenting views does not negate the consensus.

 

And nobody gets burned at the stake for dissent.

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The scientific consensus does not rely upon unanimous agreement, there are always dissenting views, mostly on in matters of nuance or detail, occasionally on whole parts of scientific theory.

 

The existence of dissenting views does not negate the consensus.

 

And nobody gets burned at the stake for dissent.

Except a few nutters who are trying to make money off being devise. They should be taken down.

42 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Yes and as I said, science proponents can exhibit behaviours akin to faith and dogma. Just as a religious person can exercise critical thinking and open-mindedness.

If a religious person exercised critical thinking and open-mindedness about their religion, IMO they would no longer be religious.

Science is not about faith. It's about facts, evidence and observation. The formation of hypotheses, and the testing of those hypotheses to destruction or confirmation.

When science is wrong ( e.g. phlogiston theory ) scientists accept it, and move on. That doesn't happen with religion, it is by definition infallible.

53 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

If a religious person exercised critical thinking and open-mindedness about their religion, IMO they would no longer be religious.

Science is not about faith. It's about facts, evidence and observation. The formation of hypotheses, and the testing of those hypotheses to destruction or confirmation.

When science is wrong ( e.g. phlogiston theory ) scientists accept it, and move on. That doesn't happen with religion, it is by definition infallible.

But science and religion can be courrupted for political (or other) motives and that is where dogma comes into play. A religious person can live their faith without adhering to the Church, just as a scientist can depart from the doxa currently prevailing in the scientific community. 

7 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

But science and religion can be courrupted for political (or other) motives and that is where dogma comes into play. A religious person can live their faith without adhering to the Church, just as a scientist can depart from the doxa currently prevailing in the scientific community. 

This, of course, is just another conspiracy theory Apparently, to your way of thinking, most of the virologists and epidemiologists in the world are turning out tons of fake results of research due to their political beliefs or for some other dark motive. Do you have any idea of how crazy your kind of thinking is? 

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

Perhaps this isn't the best forum for you. Luckily, they don't allow conspiracy theories here.

Agreed but (unlike you) I find it interesting to move out of my comfort zone and confront my views with people who don't agree with me. And other readers might find it interesting to see different viewpoints. 

 

I think I have made my points abundantly clear though so I will be taking a break for a while (unless I feel compelled to make the odd comment in another topic).

 

Cheers.

14 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Paradoxically, lots of proponents of science actually exhibit "believer" behaviours in their absolute faith in "the data" which seems to prevent them from exercising critical thinking. "The science" and "the data" seem to have become a modern dogma which hinders meaningful debate. Discussions are abruptly cut short with categorical statements such as "the data is clear...", "it is a fact that...", "science says...", as if talking about a monolithic concept and something fundamentally incontrovertible. Data can be subverted, especially when used for political purposes, and challenging it is a duty for a rational mind.

 

Social media is the only space where freedom still exists nowadays. There are of course tons of BS but also lots of compelling and raw information, and a smart and well-read person will have no trouble in filtering and processing it (something the institutionalized media supporters seem to have trouble grasping).

What's genuinely amusing about your critique is that when scientists change their minds because of new data, such as the effectiveness of mask wearing, they're accused by denialists of having lied either at first or afterwards. 

18 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What's genuinely amusing about your critique is that when scientists change their minds because of new data, such as the effectiveness of mask wearing, they're accused by denialists of having lied either at first or afterwards. 

 

It would be funny, if it wasn't so pathetically sad.

 

Scientists and researchers, the vast majority honest and ethical, base their conclusions on the results of their research and evidence and facts, as best as they can ascertain them. And when the research results or the virus changes, then they change to reflect that.

 

On the other hand, the COVID deniers and vaccine skeptics often live in evidence and fact-free worlds of ginned up conspiracy theories and unproven flights of fancy dreamed up by folks huddled in their basements reading and then re-sharing Telegram and Parler posts, or grasping at the 1% fringe loonies in the science and medical fields. That's their version of doing their own research.

 

We are getting a little off-topic, but many of the social and economic impacts have common threads going through previous pandemics from the Black Death, through the Small Pox (in N. and S. America), the Spanish Flu and right up to Covid.   

 

Labor shortages occurred in the Black Plague, primarily because of the huge death toll, during the Spanish Flu, women and children were adopted into the work force as young men died or were fighting the war, and in Covid we've seen a significant loss of the work force for various reasons.   During the Plague, the role of workers was totally reshaped.  People had value and they moved about for the best deal.  They were no longer tied to one lord or landowner.  During Covid, people have suddenly had to relearn to appreciate the role so many unskilled workers paid.  The old man and the teen restocking store shelves were appreciated.   

 

Public responses to pandemics are largely unchanged since the Black Death. Disbelief of disease presence, misinformation, unclear public communication, disregard for governmental proclamations, and poor personal risk assessment were and are still common.  In the 1630's in Italy, Drs were publicly chastised and scorned for warning people of the arrival of the plague.   

There were, of course, many remedies in the past, but they were based largely on a lack of knowledge, today they exist, but we have the tools to know what works and what doesn't.  During the Spanish Flu there was an organized league of Anti-Maskers.  

 

Today, the pandemic was blamed on the Chinese and they experienced a significant rise in cases of violence and discrimination in many countries.  During the Black Death, it was the Jews and they were killed, villages burned etc.   The smallpox outbreaks that hit Native Americans particularly hard was in no small part the reason that conquest was relatively easy.   

It's really SSDD.  We've gained a great deal of knowledge, but we have yet to learn much of anything.   

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.630449/full

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews_during_the_Black_Death

A post with misinformation about a public records case in the U.S. involving Pfizer vaccine data held by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has been removed.