Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

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3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Finland wants to join NATO as an insurance if Russia wants to build an empire and invade neighboring Countries , but that doesn't mean Russia has any intentions  of doing so .

   Its like taking out car insurance , you take out car insurance to be insured if you have an accident , you don't get insured because you know that you will be having an accident next week 

Why would it be taking out insurance now when it hasn't for the past 80 years? What makes your argument particularly clueless is that Russia is threatening Finland (and Sweden) if it does go ahead and join Nato. So clearly Finland thinks the fundamental threat newly posed by Russia is even greater than Russia's explicit threats.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Why would it be taking out insurance now when it hasn't for the past 80 years? What makes your argument particularly clueless is that Russia is threatening Finland (and Sweden) if it does go ahead and join Nato. So clearly Finland thinks the fundamental threat newly posed by Russia is even greater than Russia's explicit threats.

Because Russia have invaded Ukraine and that has caused Finland to be concerned about Russia might invade them, that doesn't mean to say that Russia will do so .

   In what way have Russia threatened Finland ?

Russia have just said they would put more weapons in the Baltics if Finland joins NATO , which isnt actually a threat to Finland .

   Was there another genuine threat to Finland or was that it ?

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Because Russia have invaded Ukraine and that has caused Finland to be concerned about Russia might invade them, that doesn't mean to say that Russia will do so .

   In what way have Russia threatened Finland ?

Russia have just said they would put more weapons in the Baltics if Finland joins NATO , which isnt actually a threat to Finland .

   Was there another genuine threat to Finland or was that it ?

You mean Russia declaring that it's going to put more weapons in the Baltics if Finland joins Nato  is no more threatening than declaring that it's going to put, say, more samovars in the Baltics if Finland joins Nato? Really?

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You have made four post in the last hour making false allegations about me , attacking me and making false accusations of what I (didn't) post . 

   How about sticking to the topic and stop trying to have a personal argument and squabble and stopping the name calling ?

How about you stop accusing others of saying stuff they never said? That might work. I'm still waiting for you to show that anyone suggested attacking Russia, as opposed to defending Ukraine or perhaps withdraw the accusation?

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Because Russia have invaded Ukraine and that has caused Finland to be concerned about Russia might invade them, that doesn't mean to say that Russia will do so .

   In what way have Russia threatened Finland ?

Russia have just said they would put more weapons in the Baltics if Finland joins NATO , which isnt actually a threat to Finland .

   Was there another genuine threat to Finland or was that it ?

Russia doesn't need to make threats, it just makes excuses for a military drill and build up of forces as a pretense for invasion as in Ukriane

 

Russia threatens nuclear escalation if Sweden and Finland join NATO

[ozimoron]

28 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Finland wants to join NATO as an insurance if Russia wants to build an empire and invade neighboring Countries , but that doesn't mean Russia has any intentions  of doing so .

   Its like taking out car insurance , you take out car insurance to be insured if you have an accident , you don't get insured because you know that you will be having an accident next week 

So you admit that joining NATO is their right and isn't provoking Putin?

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You mean Russia declaring that it's going to put more weapons in the Baltics if Finland joins Nato  is no more threatening than declaring that it's going to put, say, more samovars in the Baltics if Finland joins Nato? Really?

If Finland joined NATO , then that would be a strategic threat to Russia , so to respond to that strategic threat, Russia would put more weapons in the location .

   But that isnt a threat to Finland . 

Like Russia isnt threatening to attack Finland or anything 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If Finland joined NATO , then that would be a strategic threat to Russia , so to respond to that strategic threat, Russia would put more weapons in the location .

   But that isnt a threat to Finland . 

Like Russia isnt threatening to attack Finland or anything 

For Russia to want to threaten Finland by moving more weapons closer it would need to imagine that Finland might attack Russia. Do you think that's even remotely likely?

[CharlieH]

Posts removed. Keep it civil please.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

So you admit that joining NATO is their right and isn't provoking Putin?

Well, Ukraine does indeed have a right to do whatever it pleases , being an independent Country .

But their choices of alignment may/will cause concern to Russia and provoke them into taking action 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If Finland joined NATO , then that would be a strategic threat to Russia , so to respond to that strategic threat, Russia would put more weapons in the location .

   But that isnt a threat to Finland . 

Like Russia isnt threatening to attack Finland or anything 

Where are you getting this nonsense from?

 

Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine, doing so Russia has demonstrated it is a threat to its neighbors.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well, Ukraine does indeed have a right to do whatever it pleases , being an independent Country .

But their choices of alignment may/will cause concern to Russia and provoke them into taking action 

Meanwhile Russia has taken action.

 

An illegal, unprovoked invasion of an independent sovereign nation.

 

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well, Ukraine does indeed have a right to do whatever it pleases , being an independent Country .

But their choices of alignment may/will cause concern to Russia and provoke them into taking action 

Again, Russia would have to consider that the threat of an actual attack might occur, if not there's no provocation is there?

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

For Russia to want to threaten Finland by moving more weapons closer it would need to imagine that Finland might attack Russia. Do you think that's even remotely likely?

If a war broke out between NATO and Russia , then Finland would be a strategic location for NATO to launch attacks and Russia would need that area defended 

[tgw]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If Finland joined NATO , then that would be a strategic threat to Russia , so to respond to that strategic threat, Russia would put more weapons in the location .

   But that isnt a threat to Finland . 

Like Russia isnt threatening to attack Finland or anything 

well, it wasn't threatening to invade Ukraine either !

 

it even said it wouldn't !

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If a war broke out between NATO and Russia , then Finland would be a strategic location for NATO to launch attacks and Russia would need that area defended 

Nations that have invaded other countries in Europe since WW2: 1.

[tgw]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If a war broke out between NATO and Russia , then Finland would be a strategic location for NATO to launch attacks and Russia would need that area defended 

so what ?

you mean that gives them the right to attack Finland ?

 

if anything, it's a good reason for Finland to join NATO and build up its military.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, tgw said:

so what ?

you mean that gives them the right to attack Finland ?

 

 

No, that doesnt give them the right to attack Finland 

[tgw]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, that doesnt give them the right to attack Finland 

but Russia demonstrated that they could and would do something like that.

 

so it forces Finland to join NATO.

[LosLobo]

1 minute ago, tgw said:

but Russia demonstrated that they could and would do something like that.

 

so it forces Finland to join NATO.

They could, they would and they already did!

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, that doesnt give them the right to attack Finland 

Getting you back on topic for a moment.

 

What gave Russia the right to invade Ukraine?

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[Mac Mickmanus]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Nations that have invaded other countries in Europe since WW2: 1.

Turkey invading Cyprus ?

[placeholder]

19 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well, Ukraine does indeed have a right to do whatever it pleases , being an independent Country .

But their choices of alignment may/will cause concern to Russia and provoke them into taking action 

Does having the right to do whatever it pleases include invading another country?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Turkey invading Cyprus ?

True, I forgot about that.

[tgw]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Getting you back on topic for a moment.

 

What gave Russia the right to invade Ukraine?

I will assist Mac Mickmanus a bit and say "the right to do something" is irrelevant here.

 

It's about strategic interests in a cold war logic, there is a logical argument to be made to argue why Russia indeed would have a strategic security interest to do that.

 

And I say that argument is made by Russia and its supporters in bad faith, because "buffer states" and the distance to Moscow has become more and more irrelevant in the past years.

I don't see how NATO in Ukraine is more threatening than NATO in Poland. The difference in flight time to Moscow of a ballistic nuclear missile must be around 3 minutes.

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by tgw

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Turkey invading Cyprus ?

Interesting that you should mention that. It led me to read about Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits an occupier from transferring or deporting parts of its own civilian population into an occupied territory. That is exactly what Russia is doing in Crimea and the Donbas region.

[tgw]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Interesting that you should mention that. It led me to read about Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits an occupier from transferring or deporting parts of its own civilian population into an occupied territory. That is exactly what Russia is doing in Crimea and the Donbas region.

has been doing for years.

[ozimoron]

A Russian chess legend is predicting that Russian President Vladimir Putin might be facing a revolt from his inner circle much sooner than later.

 

Although the Russian military's advantage is faltering, Kasparov explained why Putin will continue to portray the situation as if he is heading toward victory. He added, “It’s a matter of political survival and in many cases … of physical survival.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/russian-chess-player-reveals-how-he-believes-putin-could-be-ousted-by-his-own-allies/

[Bkk Brian]

This needs to be confirmed yet but its not looking good:

 

Russia has just bombed another large hospital in Mariupol. 300 people feared dead. A new, larger bomb was used. Explosion was heard 100km away.

[Bkk Brian]

Video

Russian soldiers hoist a Soviet flag in the occupied city of Kherson. Are people in the West seeing what Russia is going for? This isn’t about NATO or Donbas and Luhansk. They want it all.