Visa Agent Catch

[skatewash]

8 minutes ago, xylophone said:

It was a suggestion made in good faith JetsetBkk, as I thought that previous posts in ThaiVisa would be archived somehow/somewhere??

 

Perhaps someone like UbonJoe or Charlie H, who are much more knowledgeable than I am with regards to the workings of the forum, would know where to/how to look?

I prefer using Googles advanced search facility when searching for content in aseannow.com:

https://www.google.com/advanced_search

Under "Find pages with..." I find the "all of these words" and "any of these words" the most useful, sometimes "the exact word or phrase" can also be useful.

Under "Then narrow your results by..." I always fill in the "site or domain" with aseannow.com

I seem to get better results doing this than I would get using the internal search within aseannow.com

[BritTim]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

I'm not sure if you are naive or trolling. 

 

https://www.legal.co.th/resources/visa-immigration-law/visa-news/thai-immigration-officer-allegedly-issued-fake-visa-entry-stamps/

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2020/08/05/american-thai-wife-arrested-operating-an-illegal-visa-business-in-bangkok-using-fake-stamps/

The use of fake stamps is definitely illegal, but also very uncommon. Almost no agents do that. It is possible for them to make short term profits by doing so, but they then need to disappear before any of those with fake stamps attend immigration or try to leave the country. A bigger risk is agents who simply abscond after taking your money. That is why it is much riskier to use an agent without an established office.

[Neeranam]

36 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

I'm confused, I thought you were Thai?

I am; quick question -  if Thais/foreigners in your country were paying agents to stay in the country when they didn't meet the legal requirements, would you care?

[JimTripper]

On 3/27/2022 at 10:30 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

There is a financial transaction involved with most agent applications, it's in and out of your account very quickly.

Usually you can deposit into an account and not withdraw, unless it's a joint account.

 

How is the agent withdrawing funds if the account is in my name?

 

Are they logging in to my account and doing a wire or money transfer out into their own account?

 

I sure would not want to keep any money of my own in the said account in the future if they have a withdrawl line on it, or maybe change the username/password.

Edited March 31, 2022 by JimTripper

[clivebaxter]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

I will post this a second time although it has been posted before:- 

 

This has been covered time and time again on forums like this and there are the two schools of thought, which I won't go into now, however, on one particular thread a poster was able to post part of the "rules and regulations" regarding the 800 K funds in the bank, and the paragraph read something like this, "the senior immigration officer at any immigration office has the discretion to grant an extension of stay based on retirement, without proof of funds being provided" (or words to that effect).

 

 This is actually written into the code of practice/rules and regulations and is therefore not illegal.

Yes written they can ignore money in the bank, but only doing so if they are paid is corruption and ILLEGAL. Also it's written in the rules the extension HAS to be obtained in the province you are living in. So. if an agent gets you one from another province that is misrepresentation, fraud and also illegal. Why try to sugar coat corruption?

[vidgra]

For retirement and marriage are only useful if you don't have the money in the bank, I wonder why anybody would pay them for any other reason ?

 

[Lemsta69]

17 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I am; quick question -  if Thais/foreigners in your country were paying agents to stay in the country when they didn't meet the legal requirements, would you care?

nope, that's the game. and there's no if about it, I'm from Oz and there's definitely that sort of stuff going on. our fruit wouldn't get picked otherwise.

 

so basically what you're saying is that it's OK for Thais to take advantage of the endemic corruption here but not us dirty foreigners? ????

[Lemsta69]

5 minutes ago, clivebaxter said:

Yes written they can ignore money in the bank, but only doing so if they are paid is corruption and ILLEGAL. Also it's written in the rules the extension HAS to be obtained in the province you are living in. So. if an agent gets you one from another province that is misrepresentation, fraud and also illegal. Why try to sugar coat corruption?

bro, if the law here can be applied selectively based on one's status and/or ability to pay then all those notions of legal/illegal don't apply. it's just one big grey area and you play the game at your own risk.

 

that's the game. don't be a playa hater.

[BritTim]

27 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I am; quick question -  if Thais/foreigners in your country were paying agents to stay in the country when they didn't meet the legal requirements, would you care?

Most of my countrymen would feel a burning sense of injustice but, speaking for myself, I would not care if the migrant was otherwise law abiding. Economic migrants from poor countries to wealthy ones are overwhelmingly a self selecting group of energetic, ambitious individuals. Study after study shows that they bring benefits to their destination countries that far outweigh the negatives. Countries that experience wave after wave of immigration consistently outperform countries that stagnate.

[Liverpool Lou]

25 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Usually you can deposit into an account and not withdraw, unless it's a joint account.

 

How is the agent withdrawing funds if the account is in my name?

 

Are they logging in to my account and doing a wire or money transfer out into their own account?

 

I sure would not want to keep any money of my own in the said account in the future if they have a withdrawl line on it, or maybe change the username/password.

Some agents do require the passbook and ATM card/PIN in order for the IO to withdraw his funds that he transferred in.  In that situation the account should be emptied beforehand so the only money that can be accessed is the IOs.   The PIN should, obviously, be changed after the transaction.  Getting a new ATM card is a worthwhile protection after getting the extension also.

 

Many people have accounts that are kept open with the minimum balance/transactions solely for the purpose of IO transactions so they risk losing nothing.

 

 

[Neeranam]

26 minutes ago, clivebaxter said:

Why try to sugar coat corruption?

I assume many here are trying to ease their conscience. 

[Liverpool Lou]

6 hours ago, LarrySR said:

I read in the news about a year ago, Dragon VISA Service in Pattaya 3rd Rd. (near Buffalo Bar) ran off with a bunch of passports and baht.

 

Tourist Police caught up with him after the Pattaya Provincial Court issued an arrest warrant on May 18th for the suspect over alleged fraud.

"The suspect reportedly took 45,000 baht from the Japanese victim for a visa service & disappeared with the victim was unable to contact them.

Pattaya Tourist Police later reported that there were more than ten foreign victims who were defrauded for an estimated hundreds of thousands of baht."

That's why most people use well-reputed agents that they are familiar with or have been recommended by non-anonymous people!   

[Neeranam]

22 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

so basically what you're saying is that it's OK for Thais to take advantage of the endemic corruption here but not us dirty foreigners?

When did I say anything even similar to that? Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

 

There are legal ways for Thais to get visas  in OZ, the ones that take an illegal route give the rest a bad name and should be put in jail, IMHO. 

[EVENKEEL]

26 minutes ago, vidgra said:

For retirement and marriage are only useful if you don't have the money in the bank, I wonder why anybody would pay them for any other reason ?

 

Perhaps to avoid speaking to the sour puss IO. 

[xylophone]

28 minutes ago, clivebaxter said:

Yes written they can ignore money in the bank, but only doing so if they are paid is corruption and ILLEGAL. Also it's written in the rules the extension HAS to be obtained in the province you are living in. So. if an agent gets you one from another province that is misrepresentation, fraud and also illegal. Why try to sugar coat corruption?

I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything, however I did mention in a previous post that a friend of mine who had been rejected for his retirement extension, even though he had the money in the bank, presumably because it was in a term deposit, was told by an IO officer that he could use an agent to obtain his extension.

 

He did this, and the stamp in his passport was an official one from the local immigration office.

 

I had used the money in the bank plus regular monthly deposits previously, however for some reason unbeknownst to me, the agent became very irate and said that I wasn't to do it like this again???

 

That's why I was considering this other route, even though I do have the full 800 K in the bank at the moment.

[Neeranam]

53 minutes ago, BritTim said:

The use of fake stamps is definitely illegal, but also very uncommon.

Do you think  a stamp is legal if a foreigner in Pattaya, goes to an agent, pays 20,000 baht, who gives to an immigration officer in Khon Kaen to stamp? 

[EVENKEEL]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I assume many here are trying to ease their conscience. 

Paying an agent is all part of the deal here. Do you honestly believe anyone in Thailand would try to stop it? The officials here very much welcome foreigners paying an agent. 

 

The IO has to recoup the money they paid for their position some how. I'll bet to get a job in the Jomtein branch they have to pay a hefty price.

[EVENKEEL]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you think  a stamp is legal if a foreigner in Pattaya, goes to an agent, pays 20,000 baht, who gives to an immigration officer in Khon Kaen to stamp? 

yes.

[Neeranam]

Just now, EVENKEEL said:

Paying an agent is all part of the deal here. Do you honestly believe anyone in Thailand would try to stop it? The officials here very much welcome foreigners paying an agent. 

 

The IO has to recoup the money they paid for their position some how. I'll bet to get a job in the Jomtein branch they have to pay a hefty price.

Yes, the army have been carefully watching the Royal Thai Police. One of my friend's is a Deputy Commissioner, the most senior guy in Isaan.  He told me  that there is a huge increase in crime by foreigners here and asked me to teach the CSD English to help with this. You'd amazed what goes on when there is a shift of power! These fake visas from agents are gradually becoming a thing of the past -  beware, is all I can say. 

Yes, I know that for senior positions, there is a 7 figure sum to pay. 

[BritTim]

15 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you think  a stamp is legal if a foreigner in Pattaya, goes to an agent, pays 20,000 baht, who gives to an immigration officer in Khon Kaen to stamp? 

The stamp is legal. Whether the whole process is legal is more questionable. You paying the agent to deal with the officials on your behalf breaks no laws, even if you are aware that the agent is using dubious methods to get your extension. The agent is misrepresenting your permanent address in the application, but it is difficult to prove, and it is the agent who is submitting the application, not you. The official actually stamping your passport is probably breaching no laws if he is careful to ensure that financial inducements are not going to him directly.

 

Under current Thai anti corruption legislation, it is more a question of morality than legality. You may be unwilling to support a corrupt system, but that is different from you doing something illegal in using an agent to facilitate a visa/extension. If you refrain from participating on moral grounds, I respect your ethics in refusing to encourage a system that rewards shady practices.

[HappyExpat57]

12 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I meet all of the requirements (including keeping 800K in the bank) for extending a Non-Imm O but use an agent because I want to make the process as painless as possible for me, it costs 8,000 THB for a 12 month extension & (IMHO) is money well spent, others may prefer to spend their money differently... to each his own... 

 

Yours is a different story. You're hiring someone to do the grunt work for you (I do the exact same thing with my drivers licenses). When referencing using an agent for your visa, it's usually to get around the legal requirements.

[LarrySR]

32 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Paying an agent is all part of the deal here. Do you honestly believe anyone in Thailand would try to stop it? The officials here very much welcome foreigners paying an agent. 

 

The IO has to recoup the money they paid for their position some how. I'll bet to get a job in the Jomtein branch they have to pay a hefty price.

A percentage of the police graft gets paid out every month to the troops as a cash bonus and a big piece goes upstairs and some of that goes all the way to the top.  
 
It all goes smoothly until someone in the chain feels they got shafted. 
 

[clivebaxter]

56 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Yes, the army have been carefully watching the Royal Thai Police. One of my friend's is a Deputy Commissioner, the most senior guy in Isaan.  He told me  that there is a huge increase in crime by foreigners here and asked me to teach the CSD English to help with this. You'd amazed what goes on when there is a shift of power! These fake visas from agents are gradually becoming a thing of the past -  beware, is all I can say. 

Yes, I know that for senior positions, there is a 7 figure sum to pay. 

At one time people breaking the law argued it was OK to give an agent their passport to do constant border runs, until it was not. Now they insists bribing officials for extensions from places they do not live in, and might have never even been to is acceptable, well maybe that is coming to and end, along with their illegally issued extensions. I do hope so. All these people do is make it harder for the rest of us as happened when we had to keep funds in the bank longer in an attempt to restrict the cheats

[clivebaxter]

40 minutes ago, BritTim said:

The stamp is legal. Whether the whole process is legal is more questionable. You paying the agent to deal with the officials on your behalf breaks no laws, even if you are aware that the agent is using dubious methods to get your extension. The agent is misrepresenting your permanent address in the application, but it is difficult to prove, and it is the agent who is submitting the application, not you. The official actually stamping your passport is probably breaching no laws if he is careful to ensure that financial inducements are not going to him directly.

 

Under current Thai anti corruption legislation, it is more a question of morality than legality. You may be unwilling to support a corrupt system, but that is different from you doing something illegal in using an agent to facilitate a visa/extension. If you refrain from participating on moral grounds, I respect your ethics in refusing to encourage a system that rewards shady practices.

If issued from a province you do not live in the stamp is totally illegal and worthless as it was obtained with false declarations re residence

[BritTim]

4 minutes ago, clivebaxter said:

If issued from a province you do not live in the stamp is totally illegal and worthless as it was obtained with false declarations re residence

I have a question for you. If you accidentally write the wrong address on your application form, does this invalidate the extension the official gives you? If you deliberately write the wrong address, does this make the stamp illegal? If an accidental error on the application form would not leave you on overstay, liable to be deported and banned from re-entry to Thailand, but a deliberate error would, how easy would you say it is to prove the difference (other than through extensive investigation).

 

The TM-30 system will show you as present in the province at the time of the application. The official has plausible deniability on this aspect when he stamps your passport. Is the whole procedure shady? Certainly. Does it involve corruption? Yes, but most likely without breaking any laws punishable by anything worse than small fines (and the agent is the one risking that). Is the stamp illegal? No, it is a valid stamp made by the 'competent' official according to regulations.

 

Thailand is a corrupt country. As in most third world countries, those in power want it that way.

[EVENKEEL]

17 minutes ago, clivebaxter said:

At one time people breaking the law argued it was OK to give an agent their passport to do constant border runs, until it was not. Now they insists bribing officials for extensions from places they do not live in, and might have never even been to is acceptable, well maybe that is coming to and end, along with their illegally issued extensions. I do hope so. All these people do is make it harder for the rest of us as happened when we had to keep funds in the bank longer in an attempt to restrict the cheats

I firmly believe Immigration wants you to use the agent route. The more they change rules and requirements the more foreigners seek out an agent for assistance. This is a cash cow for many people. it won't stop, more rules come into play means agents get to charge more.

[hotandsticky]

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I'm not sure if you are naive or trolling. 

 

https://www.legal.co.th/resources/visa-immigration-law/visa-news/thai-immigration-officer-allegedly-issued-fake-visa-entry-stamps/

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2020/08/05/american-thai-wife-arrested-operating-an-illegal-visa-business-in-bangkok-using-fake-stamps/

 

 

That is a reliable source.

 

 

You have have been around long enough to understand the billions of Baht earned by immigration officers ensures that they will continue this dodgy practice. 

 

You are surely not so naive to think that IO's will not continue to exercise their absolute discretion.

 

Anyone who has paid for a retirement extension via an agent (or direct with IO's in some areas) has nothing to fear about the legality of their extension stamps.

[clivebaxter]

42 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

That is a reliable source.

 

 

You have have been around long enough to understand the billions of Baht earned by immigration officers ensures that they will continue this dodgy practice. 

 

You are surely not so naive to think that IO's will not continue to exercise their absolute discretion.

 

Anyone who has paid for a retirement extension via an agent (or direct with IO's in some areas) has nothing to fear about the legality of their extension stamps.

Even though such an extension was obtained with lies and cash payment! Maybe nothing to fear just at the moment, but for how long when some decent force decides to clean the cesspit of corruption up? Amusing how many are against corruption, until they can benefit from it personally.

[hotandsticky]

15 hours ago, clivebaxter said:

Even though such an extension was obtained with lies and cash payment! Maybe nothing to fear just at the moment, but for how long when some decent force decides to clean the cesspit of corruption up? Amusing how many are against corruption, until they can benefit from it personally.

 

I am not in favour of corruption, I am simply telling it how it is; the reality of 'dodgy' extension.

 

I have been hearing for 20 years how Immigration will cleanse itself and those relying on these extensions will be booted out of Thailand............. I am still waiting.

[NancyL]

On 3/28/2022 at 1:42 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

The agent would be the party bribing the official.   

 

The arrangement has been going on for decades and, unless you have evidence to the contrary, so far, there have been no reports of anything going wrong, so why would you be so worried about it?

 

"Thought it was against forum rules to discus these things btw".

Why are you discussing them, then?

I've known situations where this "goes wrong" when an expat retiree ends up the a government hospital and claims poverty; unable to pay his medical bill.  Then the question is asked about how he financially justifies his retirement visa.  Here in Chiang Mai, if someone is able to pay their medical bill, the government hospitals don't care about visa status, and in the past they'd even let someone sign a payment contract for as little as 10,000 baht/month.  But the past several years, they've really cracked down and bring in the police when someone pleads poverty with a retirement/marriage visa.  And the police wonder why his visa extension was done in a province other than Chiang Mai and make inquiries.

 

The end result is either the patient scrambles around and comes up with the money for the hospital bill or ends up returning back to their home country.  And the visa agent has to find another corrupt I/O because he knows that the one he had been using isn't going to be available for future dodgy extensions.