Spelling Out Loud in Thai

[Stubby]

Hi, Folks.
 

I used to know what order to spell out Thai words, but I've forgotten (probably and age thing ????). And I can't seem to find the answer by searching on Google.

I vaguely remember that if a vowel goes in front of a consonant, you spell the consonant first and then back to the vowel before continuing. Am I right?
 

For example, the word for smart is gèng or เก่ง in Thai. In this case, would you spell it Gor Gai (ก), Sara E (เ), Ngo Ngu (ง), and finally the tone mark Mai Ek?

Thank you in advance,
 

Stubby
 

[ColeBOzbourne]

My GF just explained that the order when spelling out loud would be as follows:  Sara E (เ), Gor Gai (ก), Mai Ek, Ngo Ngu (ง)  

 

If spelled out in the order you suggested, it would indicate that Sara E (เ) and Mai Ek were attached to Ngo Ngu (ง) instead of Gor Gai (ก) and would end up looking like this: กเง่

[Richard W]

It does seem as though Thais have forgotten the system that Stubby learnt.  That system is taught at the end of Section 10B (in the 5th edition) of  'the fundamentals of the Thai Language' by Campbell and Shaweewongs.  Their most useful example is เดี๋ยวนี้ spelt out as 'do sara ia mai chattawa wo no sara ii mai tho', or in their transcription, 'DOR SARA EE-A MȲ JUTDTAWAH WOR, NOR SARA EE MȲTŌ'.  Coda consonants are treated as though in separate syllables.  However, that system seems to have become moribund by the time I realised that I didn't know how to distinguish modern and old เฉผาะ from reformed ฉเผาะ.  Nowadays Thais spell out as they type, as stated by ColeBOzbourne.

[Stubby]

Thanks for your replies, guys.

Apologies for the late response. For some reason, I didn't get notifications despite having clicked the Follow Topic radio button.

I'm still a little confused, though. And I'm surprised at how hard it is to find a Youtube or text tutorial on Thai spelling. 

 

Richard, in your example, เดี๋ยวนี้ I think I was also taught to speak the consonant first, followed by the vowel sound, followed by any tone marks. Alas, it's all become a tad distant, hence this post, but it's starting to come back.

 

On that note, I would spell the word Chiang Mai (เชียงใหม่) out loud like this (I think):

Cho chang (ช) sara ea (เ–ีย) ngo ngu (ง) ho hip (ห) sàrà ai maimuan (ใ) (mo ma (ม), mai ek (◌่)

 

But now I'm not so sure after reading ColeBOzbourne post. Is your girlfriend saying Thais would spell it like so:
 

sara ea (เ–ีย) cho chang (ช) ngo ngu (ง) sàrà ai maimuan (ใ) ho hip (ห) (mo ma (ม), mai ek (◌่)?
 

Why Spelling Matters
 

When someone says an unfamiliar word that you need to know—but can't quite grasp—it's helpful if they can write it down or spell it out loud. Or at least it is for those who can read a bit of Thai.
 

Sorry, could you spell that for me, please?
 

"Kŏr tôht kráp kun sà-gòt kam dâai măi kráp."
 

ขอโทษครับคุณสะกดคำได้ไหมครับ
 

Unfortunately, I'm one of these expats who's been here for donkey's years who's useless at speaking Thai. Even so, that doesn't stop me from trying.
 

Stubby

 

 

[Richard W]

The old system is not quite as simple.  It's onset consonants first, then the tone mark if the vowel is all to the right of the onset consonants, then the vowel, then the tone mark if not already said, than karan.  This ใหม่ 'new' is ho hip, mo ma, sara ai maimuan, mai ek.

I don't think the compound vowel symbols are treated as units in the modern system, but spelt out individually, so the เชียง bit would be sara e, cho chang, sara ii, yo yak, ngo ngu - as you type it, which is simpler, and handles anomalous spellings like เทอม 'term', which by the rules should be *เทิม.

[ColeBOzbourne]

1 hour ago, Richard W said:

the เชียง bit would be sara e, cho chang, sara ii, yo yak, ngo ngu - as you type it

Yes. Agree with Richard W that this would be the spelling. 

You can't enter sara ea (เ–ีย) on the keyboard with one stroke. Each part is entered separately, so each part is also spelled out loud separately.

[Stubby]

1 hour ago, Richard W said:

The old system is not quite as simple.  It's onset consonants first, then the tone mark if the vowel is all to the right of the onset consonants, then the vowel, then the tone mark if not already said, than karan.  This ใหม่ 'new' is ho hip, mo ma, sara ai maimuan, mai ek.

I don't think the compound vowel symbols are treated as units in the modern system, but spelt out individually, so the เชียง bit would be sara e, cho chang, sara ii, yo yak, ngo ngu - as you type it, which is simpler, and handles anomalous spellings like เทอม 'term', which by the rules should be *เทิม.

Thank you, Richard. It's not so easy or clear-cut, then. Perhaps that's why the gazillion Thai teachers online shy away from spelling, but I wish someone would tackle it. Like all learning, there must be a beginner's level on which one could build their skills.
 

Regards,
 

Stubby

[Stubby]

1 minute ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

Yes. Agree with Richard W that this would be the spelling. 

You can't enter sara ea (เ–ีย) on the keyboard with one stroke. Each part is entered separately, so each part is also spelled out loud separately.

Thanks, ColeBOzbourne.

But writing and typing isn't quite the same as spelling out loud, or is it? I mean, if I were to spell the word "meet" aloud in English, I wouldn't say em, ee, ee, t, but rather em, double-e, t, though double-e is not on the keyboard. But hey, I'm probably overcomplicating things… it happens ????

Stubby

[ColeBOzbourne]

Yes, I believe spelling out loud in Thai is the same as writing/typing in Thai. Each letter/symbol is pronounced individually even if two of the same appear in a row...such as your example with 'meet'. 

[Stubby]

15 hours ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

Yes, I believe spelling out loud in Thai is the same as writing/typing in Thai. Each letter/symbol is pronounced individually even if two of the same appear in a row...such as your example with 'meet'. 

I'm sure you're right, ColeBOzbourne, but I'm pretty sure I was taught otherwise. Either that or I read something somewhere once that planted it in my subconscious. Or maybe that's how Thai educators used to teach it, although I can't be sure (it's been a while), which is why I posted here.

However, your way does seem more complicated in that you're spelling out many more characters instead of a single vowel sound. Anyway, if I hear anything contrary, I'll update this post by quoting the source. Of course, it may turn out that it's either-or, so who knows.

Stubby

[digbeth]

there were big dramas in Thai social media that some newer textbooks teach children to list out letters in sequence that it's written/typed from left to right, which would be useless in learning the sounds

 

if a place is asking to spell your name or whatever, then it's probably better to spell in sequence, for learning, consonant then vowel is better

[ColeBOzbourne]

Here is a related discussion on another forum. It does seem different people spell out loud using your method vs. my method, and as Richard W pointed out an old vs. new system.

 

thai-language.com - Forums - write which letter first in Thai words?

[Stubby]

Thanks, everybody. Who would have thought there wouldn't be a straightforward answer to this? There are so many Thai video tutorials online, yet I've never seen one by a Thai teacher for spelling words out aloud. And believe me, I've looked. There might be somewhere, but I've not come across any tutorials yet.
 

@digbeth, that's what I thought. If you spell every character aloud in a word, you are not pronouncing/practicing the vowel sounds.
 

I will message some Thai language teachers to see what they have to say. Perhaps I should have started there. I will update my findings here, so be sure to follow the thread ????

Stubby

[Richard W]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:19 AM, Stubby said:

But writing and typing isn't quite the same as spelling out loud, or is it? I mean, if I were to spell the word "meet" aloud in English, I wouldn't say em, ee, ee, t, but rather em, double-e, t, though double-e is not on the keyboard.

Actually, for me 'double 'e'' is a single bouncy key stroke!  Also, I wouldn't be surprised to find ro han (รร) being spelt out as 'ro han'.