Tax residency of retirees

[Siamic]

I use an Australian passport and have lived here on retirement extensions for 11 years. I have no assets nor income in Australia but I do have a bank account. The bank wants to know where I am tax resident. I do not have a TIN in Thailand nor income. Am I  considered tax resident in Thailand or nowhere?

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, Siamic said:

The bank wants to know where I am tax resident

State Australia. 

[Tom H]

Australia

[Lacessit]

Australia. Be aware there is a proposed change that will result in only one criteria being applied, that of 183 days actually in Australia out of the year. Not sure if that's the calendar year,or the financial year.

[foreverlomsak]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Not sure if that's the calendar year,or the financial year.

In Thailand it is one and the same, the financial year is the calendar year, not like the UK which changes on the 6th April.

If you spend more than 180 days a year in Thailand you would probably be classed as resident in Thailand for tax purposes, however if you have no TIN how would they know you exist, also check the double taxation agreement between Thailand and Australia.

[Lacessit]

14 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

In Thailand it is one and the same, the financial year is the calendar year, not like the UK which changes on the 6th April.

If you spend more than 180 days a year in Thailand you would probably be classed as resident in Thailand for tax purposes, however if you have no TIN how would they know you exist, also check the double taxation agreement between Thailand and Australia.

As the OP has said he has no income or assets in Australia, as far as tax goes there is nothing to tax. Or report.

It's just the bank doing its thing in respect of money laundering regulations, one size fits all.

[MadMuhammad]

I’m no longer a resident of Australia for tax purposes, so any interest in my term deposits and income from my trust fund in taxed per foreign resident rules. I pay no taxes in Thailand as my income comes from savings or profits of the previous year. 
I just went through some anti money laundering enquiries with one of my banks and I’m not listed as a tax resident in any jurisdiction 

Edited May 27, 2022 by MadMuhammad

[Dogmatix]

You technically a tax resident of Thailand and would have to file a tax return, if you had taxable income arising in Thailand.  But that would prompt the bank to ask for your tax number.  So better just say Australia. I am sure it's just a tick the box and they are not going to ask you for any tax information from Australia. 

[4MyEgo]

6 hours ago, Lacessit said:

As the OP has said he has no income or assets in Australia, as far as tax goes there is nothing to tax. Or report.

It's just the bank doing its thing in respect of money laundering regulations, one size fits all.

I don't believe that to be the case.

 

I went through the money laundering episode, they didn't ask me what my residency was, once I gave them what they wanted, it was all and good until a year later.

 

Mr 4MyEgo do you reside in Thailand, yes, why, it is the bank's policy that you must be a resident of Australia to have an account with us, we are therefore shutting your account down,

 

Be my guest, I only used your bank for the free international transaction fees and free ATM fee's when I made 5 transactions a month and deposited a thousand dollars or more into the account, which also went out the same day.

 

Fortunately I have another account with another bank which holds the majority of my funds and they have an Australian address, so doubt they will be annoying me wanting to shut my account down.

 

The above said, I think his bank is wanting to shut his account down, suffice to say, he should say he is a resident of Australia, otherwise if he doesn't have another account it will get messy when he wants to transfer funds to Thailand.

 

Others should also take note, if you have an overseas address with your banks for the withholding tax, just change it to an Ozzie address, otherwise don't say I didn't warn you.

[4MyEgo]

9 hours ago, Siamic said:

I have no assets nor income in Australia but I do have a bank account.

Just say you are a resident of Australia for tax purposes, if they ask for your TFN, then you will have to dig out an old tax return with it on the return.

 

If you have no use for the account, you can tell them you are a resident of Thailand, but expect it to be closed down, they just did it to me because I had an overseas address with them so that they could withhold any interest for the ATO, but looks like things are changing, there policy states that I must be a resident of Australia to hold an account with them.

 

It was ING for those wishing to know.

[GreasyFingers]

It is quite clear if you look at the tax office website... you are not "resident" for tax purposes in Australia. I had an honest accountant that would not sign my tax declaration after I was living here a few years. As my Australian income is below the tax threshold I declared myself as not needing to submit a tax return. Not really legal if you look at the website.

 

If it is an existing bank account give them an Australian address and say yes.

[Sheryl]

Since the issue seems to be home country (Australia) bank regulations I am  moving this to the home country forum.

[Lacessit]

29 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I don't believe that to be the case.

 

I went through the money laundering episode, they didn't ask me what my residency was, once I gave them what they wanted, it was all and good until a year later.

 

Mr 4MyEgo do you reside in Thailand, yes, why, it is the bank's policy that you must be a resident of Australia to have an account with us, we are therefore shutting your account down,

 

Be my guest, I only used your bank for the free international transaction fees and free ATM fee's when I made 5 transactions a month and deposited a thousand dollars or more into the account, which also went out the same day.

 

Fortunately I have another account with another bank which holds the majority of my funds and they have an Australian address, so doubt they will be annoying me wanting to shut my account down.

 

The above said, I think his bank is wanting to shut his account down, suffice to say, he should say he is a resident of Australia, otherwise if he doesn't have another account it will get messy when he wants to transfer funds to Thailand.

 

Others should also take note, if you have an overseas address with your banks for the withholding tax, just change it to an Ozzie address, otherwise don't say I didn't warn you.

Your experience is different to mine.

I made the declaration I was an Australian tax resident about a month ago. My credit union responded as a seemed to be spending a lot of time in Thailand, how I justified that. In my response, I said:

 

I do not own any property in Thailand, and have no source of income here.

I have an Australian residential address, and a financial interest in that address.

I have an OAP, and income-producing assets in Australia.

Those answers appear to have satisfied them, although if the 183 day rule becomes the only one, all bets are off.

Whether they are envisaging shutting the account down is a different question.

[Presnock]

Australia is one of 54 (I think that is right) countries are began a process 3-4 years ago where they want certain banking information from their citizens.  As the banks have to share that information on citizens of other countries, some banks/countries are refusing to do so unless the individual client provides id documentation in order that he bank can send the local banking info of that client to his/her home country.  Therefore, some banks seeing problems with that are now insisting that their local account holders must have a residence in their tax country (I am an American and yes, my bank of 54 years dropped me as my official address in in Thailand)  I could have used a relative's home

address in the states but that too would actually be illegal.  Americans are required to file tax returns no matter where we reside or make that money.  Since they began this new process, very few US banks will provide accts for overseas residents.  We are required to file an additional government form every year for any accts we control in the local banks too if it reaches an aggregate of 10K USD during the calendar year.  I have sent in one report listing for almost a 100k but they never asked any further questions on the source of any of the funds though all was legal.  Some people have ways of providing their home country with a local telephone number although to the bank that looks like it is in a home country area.  Again, something actually illegal at least in the US as one is trying to circumvent the legal process.  Since I do  nothing wrong I see not problem in adhering to the legal processes of my government whether I am particularly happy with those processes or not.  Such is life.

[4MyEgo]

11 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

although if the 183 day rule becomes the only one, all bets are off.

Is this part of the new bill that hasn't been passed yet ?

 

I am not up to speed on it, although I would imagine that one of the new criteria to determine if you are a non resident is, if you spend less than 45 days in Australia, I think, like I said, I am not up to speed on it.

[GreasyFingers]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Is this part of the new bill that hasn't been passed yet ?

 

I am not up to speed on it, although I would imagine that one of the new criteria to determine if you are a non resident is, if you spend less than 45 days in Australia, I think, like I said, I am not up to speed on it.

No. The 180 day rule has been there for some time.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

Is this part of the new bill that hasn't been passed yet ?

 

I am not up to speed on it, although I would imagine that one of the new criteria to determine if you are a non resident is, if you spend less than 45 days in Australia, I think, like I said, I am not up to speed on it.

AFAIK it's not a new bill at present, it's a recommendation from some committee to simplify determination of tax  residency status.

As I understand it, if you are in Australia for less than 183 days in a year, you are no longer a tax resident there.

[4MyEgo]

Just now, GreasyFingers said:

No. The 180 day rule has been there for some time.

I am aware that under the current legislation, on of the criteria is that is you spend 183 days or more in a financial year, the ruling applies that you are resident of Australia for tax purposes, however there are some planned changes which interest me, i.e. to keep up to date. 

[GreasyFingers]

For the OP there is a simple test on the ATO website, but I would not put my TFN in it (I was telling lies).

[Titan1962]

I am an Australian citizen with the same criteria as yourself. Only a bank account in Australia with stuff all in it, I became a non resident for tax purposes in Australia,they will be asking regarding the interest you are getting in Australia from any money you have in your account.  The tax rates are different between a non resident and resident. I applied for a TIN here in Thailand and received it,did my first lodgement in January this year.  
if your receiving some income,if it goes above the taxable income you will need to pay tax. Here if your living here,I prefer to pay it here. Keep my taxation receipts in case I want to go back home one day so I can show I paid tax in Thailand. Can’t be double dipped.

But that is just my experience and option I chose.

[CygnusX1]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

As I understand it, if you are in Australia for less than 183 days in a year, you are no longer a tax resident there.

It’s not as simple as that, less than 183 days in Australia per year is just one of a number of criteria used to determine tax residency, although I’d say the OP is certainly not a tax resident of Australia any more, not that I’d advise him to declare it.

[Lacessit]

34 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

It’s not as simple as that, less than 183 days in Australia per year is just one of a number of criteria used to determine tax residency, although I’d say the OP is certainly not a tax resident of Australia any more, not that I’d advise him to declare it.

Please quote my entire post, as you are taking my post out of context.

I agree you are talking about the current situation. I am saying the proposed change, if implemented, will reduce the criteria to just one - the 183 day rule.

[CygnusX1]

Sorry, I thought from reading your full post that you were talking about the current legislation.

However, my comment also applies to the proposed changes, in which 183 days is also not to be the sole criterion. In fact, it looks like Australian tax residency for someone spending more than 183 days out of the country each year will be easier to establish under the proposed changes, with a number of secondary tests in addition to the primary 183 day test.

see 

https://www.moore-australia.com.au/news-and-views/september-2021/proposed-changes-to-the-tax-residency-provisions-f?utm_source=Mondaq&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=LinkedIn-integration

[khunPer]

15 hours ago, Siamic said:

I use an Australian passport and have lived here on retirement extensions for 11 years.

If you stay more than 180 days in Thailand within a calendar year then your are tax-resident in Thailand.

[brianthainess]

I also got an URGENT letter from ANZ Australia posted 7/3/22 telling me it must be returned in 30 days, I got it (only after on-going dispute with the local Post Office) along with all of this years mail 2 weeks ago. I tried to retrieve my TIN number on the site they said Nah couldn't. I don't have income there or deposit money there, apart from a few dollars interest. Way way below the tax threshold. They MAY report my details to A.O.T. so what go ahead. 

[Jen65]

You need to get an "Offshore Bank Account "  !!!  

[partington]

Just to point out "tax residency" in any country is not determined by whether you owe any tax or have any income in that country, but by a set of more or less simple regulations mostly determined by the amount of time you spend in that country in a year. It defines whether you are considered resident.

 

Whether you owe tax or not is completely irrelevant to determining tax residency!

 

Moreover your tax residency in one country, say country X, is not affected in the slightest by whether you are considered a tax resident of country Y. The laws of country Y don't apply in country X and vice versa, so country Y's views cannot determine country X's views.

 

You can be tax resident in two or more countries and you cannot argue that because country Y considers you a tax resident, that proves you are not a tax resident in country X.  If you meet the legal definition of tax residence in country X then you are a tax resident of country X as well.

[KhunHeineken]

If you have no assets or income in Australia and Thailand, it sounds like you are a tax resident of of third country.  Unless you moved all your money to Thailand and bought some type of income producing asset in a Thai's name.

 

Are you a dual national?

 

Clearly you are not a resident of Australia for tax purposes, and to state you are is an offence.  You may or may not risk the consequences of doing so.  What address does the bank have for you?