LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[K2938]

7 hours ago, James105 said:

Do people use agents typically for this or just go straight to BOI and submit the documents etc?  Is there any advantage to using an agent to get the aforementioned ducks in a row and get this over the line? 

An agent will charge you several times more than the value he or she adds which is generally marginal.

[sabaiguy]

James,

     Your comments about royalties is very interesting.  I'm a Yank so I know nothing.  All I know is that BOI wants you to show "passive" income not "earned" income {salary, wages}.   I do not know how the UK classifies royalties.  In the end it isn't even important what you or even the UK Government says, it's how the BOI interprets it.  You can be absolutely correct but if the BOI doesn't agree then you're sol.  Also I'm not sure why they ask for tax returns.  To my knowledge none of the requirements say you have to show taxes paid.  There's a lot of very wealthy people in the US who don't pay any taxes.

     Based on your age I assume you have qualifying health insurance.  If not you should probably be able to get it.  That's a stumbling block for many applicant (ie older ones 70+).

[Mike Teavee]

6 hours ago, sabaiguy said:

Also I'm not sure why they ask for tax returns.  To my knowledge none of the requirements say you have to show taxes paid.  There's a lot of very wealthy people in the US who don't pay any taxes.

I've been curious about this for a while, how do you show Capital Gains if not through a Tax Return (As a UK Expat I don't pay Capital Gains Tax on my share dealings so they don't appear on my UK Tax Return). 

 

Does BOI accept copies of the purchase/sale contract notes? It doesn't feel like they would, but then again, Capital Gains don't feel like they should be counted as income to me. 

 

[James105]

9 hours ago, sabaiguy said:

James,

     Your comments about royalties is very interesting.  I'm a Yank so I know nothing.  All I know is that BOI wants you to show "passive" income not "earned" income {salary, wages}.   I do not know how the UK classifies royalties.  In the end it isn't even important what you or even the UK Government says, it's how the BOI interprets it.  You can be absolutely correct but if the BOI doesn't agree then you're sol.  Also I'm not sure why they ask for tax returns.  To my knowledge none of the requirements say you have to show taxes paid.  There's a lot of very wealthy people in the US who don't pay any taxes.

     Based on your age I assume you have qualifying health insurance.  If not you should probably be able to get it.  That's a stumbling block for many applicant (ie older ones 70+).

 

Yes I see what you mean about royalties but I do publish on a US based platform so get a 1024-S for the US based sales and the income category on there is 12 which is "Other royalties (for example, copyright, software, broadcasting, endorsement payments)", so hopefully that will satisfy this requirement.   I forgot I get this so this is another tax doc in the documentation toolbox.

 

Yes, I probably should think about getting some health insurance, but I can also just demonstrate that I have adequate cash in the bank to cover this anyway for self insurance purposes.   

 

Someone above mentioned that they are very helpful in the BOI office and I have plenty of time before I need to apply for this so next time I am in Bangkok I'll probably just go in and see if I can get some kind of confirmation before I submit the docs.  

[stat]

17 hours ago, sabaiguy said:

James,

...

     Based on your age I assume you have qualifying health insurance.  If not you should probably be able to get it.  That's a stumbling block for many applicant (ie older ones 70+).

There is always the option to self insure and prove 100K USD in a bank account if unable to get a health insurance. Only recommended in some cases IMHO.

[stat]

10 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I've been curious about this for a while, how do you show Capital Gains if not through a Tax Return (As a UK Expat I don't pay Capital Gains Tax on my share dealings so they don't appear on my UK Tax Return). 

 

Does BOI accept copies of the purchase/sale contract notes? It doesn't feel like they would, but then again, Capital Gains don't feel like they should be counted as income to me. 

 

I explictly asked them if bank statements would be OK, their answer was we will have to see, so I guess up to BOI . Also in my country Germany cap gains, dividends etc do not show in my tax return if from a German bank. It would be interesting to know if they accept an abundance of monies i.e. 1-3 Millions Plus USD as enough, even if you can only show 60K USD passive income as this video with a BOI official suggested at 14:05 following. She stressed it should be in an 401K plan but there is no such thing in a lot of countries. Any experiences? Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

[sabaiguy]

3 hours ago, stat said:

There is always the option to self insure and prove 100K USD in a bank account if unable to get a health insurance. Only recommended in some cases IMHO.

Yes $100,000 for 12 months.

[sabaiguy]

2 hours ago, stat said:

I explictly asked them if bank statements would be OK, their answer was we will have to see, so I guess up to BOI . Also in my country Germany cap gains, dividends etc do not show in my tax return if from a German bank. It would be interesting to know if they accept an abundance of monies i.e. 1-3 Millions Plus USD as enough, even if you can only show 60K USD passive income as this video with a BOI official suggested at 14:05 following. She stressed it should be in an 401K plan but there is no such thing in a lot of countries. Any experiences? Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, stat said:

I explictly asked them if bank statements would be OK, their answer was we will have to see, so I guess up to BOI . Also in my country Germany cap gains, dividends etc do not show in my tax return if from a German bank. It would be interesting to know if they accept an abundance of monies i.e. 1-3 Millions Plus USD as enough, even if you can only show 60K USD passive income as this video with a BOI official suggested at 14:05 following. She stressed it should be in an 401K plan but there is no such thing in a lot of countries. Any experiences? Thanks!

 

With regard to your net worth of $1-3 million I don't think they care for some reason.

 

 

 

 

[K2938]

4 hours ago, stat said:

It would be interesting to know if they accept an abundance of monies i.e. 1-3 Millions Plus USD as enough, even if you can only show 60K USD passive income as this video with a BOI official suggested at 14:05 following. She stressed it should be in an 401K plan but there is no such thing in a lot of countries. Any experiences? Thanks!

The BOI solely looks at income, not assets.  So if you were a tech billionaire with stock worth billions, but without any current income, you would not make it.  From an economic point of view this is of course not very sensible, but these are the rules.  Period.

 

[Misty]

15 hours ago, stat said:

I explictly asked them if bank statements would be OK, their answer was we will have to see, so I guess up to BOI . Also in my country Germany cap gains, dividends etc do not show in my tax return if from a German bank. It would be interesting to know if they accept an abundance of monies i.e. 1-3 Millions Plus USD as enough, even if you can only show 60K USD passive income as this video with a BOI official suggested at 14:05 following. She stressed it should be in an 401K plan but there is no such thing in a lot of countries. Any experiences? Thanks!

 

 

The impression I’ve had is that the BoI’s LTR unit is looking for steady recurring passive income such as provided by a defined benefit pension, state pension, annuity, rental income, dividends, interest etc.  However, capital gains from trading or a sale of assets might not qualify.

 

From interactions with the LTR unit, It seems that they are just following the law governing the LTR visa, as it was written. The law isn’t perfect. Although the LTR unit is sympathetic to the imperfections, they don’t think they have room to interpret the law or maneuver outside of it. This might be different from Immigration where “VIP service fees” can be an influencing factor.

 

The comment about the US 401(k) plan is interesting. I wonder if the BoI official was referring to a traditional 401(k) where Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs) have already begun. In that case a 401(k) will have be required to provide a steady passive income, a bit like a defined benefit pension. Same could go for a traditional US IRA undergoing RMDs. While other countries may not have these specific types of plans, they may have other types of pensions that would work in a similar fashion.

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, Misty said:

However, capital gains from trading or a sale of assets might not qualify.

Capital Gains can be included (something that doesn't really make sense to me TBH)...

 

Unearned or passive income includes, but are not limited to pension, rental, capital gain, dividend, and interest payments

 

 https://ltr.boi.go.th/#type  

 

 

But I'm not sure how you prove the gain if you don't need to report it on your home country tax returns.  

[oldcpu]

3 hours ago, Misty said:

The comment about the US 401(k) plan is interesting. I wonder if the BoI official was referring to a traditional 401(k) where Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs) have already begun. In that case a 401(k) will have be required to provide a steady passive income, a bit like a defined benefit pension. Same could go for a traditional US IRA undergoing RMDs. While other countries may not have these specific types of plans, they may have other types of pensions that would work in a similar fashion.

 

 

In Canada there is a plan called "RRIF" (Registered Retirement Income Fund" ).  In the case of this 'government' registered fund, one is required to withdraw a minimum amount out of the fund every year.  Money inside the RRIF is allowed to grow tax free in Canada, but once one brings money out of the RRIF it is taxed by Canada.  This withdrawal of money would then show up on one's Canadian Tax return as a form of income (where Canada requires one to file a tax return in such a case).  So for the Canadian RRIF, I believe the Canadian tax return might possibly suffice as RRIF income proof (for the Thai BoI, albeit I am unsure).

 

Also, in the case of Canada, if one has a "RRSP" (Registered Retirement Savings Plan) , which I believe conceptually similar to a US 401(k), money inside that 'savings plan' is allowed to grow tax free.  But when one is age-71, one is required to convert that RRSP to an RRIF (which I described above) and take a minimum amount out of the RRIF every year.  Again, I assume the RRIF income could be used as income proof for the LTR-WP visa (as Canadian tax returns would be available), but I don't know. 

 

In my case, I decided to not use an RRIF as proof of my income (as I could qualify via the $40k income and $250k investment route for the Wealthy Pensioner LTR category, without having to resort to an RRIF). 

 

But I am curious if there are any Canadians who successfully used an RRIF as income proof for an LTR visa?

 

If they have, then that opens a possibility for me when I have to reprove my finances (and go to renew my LTR visa permission to stay) in 4 years time (as I obtained my LTR visa one year ago)..

Edited May 26 by oldcpu

[stat]

6 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Capital Gains can be included (something that doesn't really make sense to me TBH)...

 

Unearned or passive income includes, but are not limited to pension, rental, capital gain, dividend, and interest payments

 

 https://ltr.boi.go.th/#type  

 

 

But I'm not sure how you prove the gain if you don't need to report it on your home country tax returns.  

It was and is my understanding that capital gains will be counted towards the 80K and this was confirmed by BOI. However I have no idea if they will accept my documents, especially the ones coming from a German bank (in German). Translation and notarization can be very expensive.

 

In continental Europe there are no pension funds similar to a 401K plan as only the anglo saxons "understand" the compounding of interest and working of free market companies. For your typical German the stock market is just a casino where you are bound to lose everything, therefore no 401K plans. However in the last 5-10 years this is changing with the younger folks.

[aublumberg]

36 minutes ago, stat said:

owever I have no idea if they will accept my documents, especially the ones coming from a German bank (in German). Translation and notarization can be very expensive.

Am afraid you will need to get it translated, BOI only accepts Thai or English documents.

 

Ich kann https://www.thailaendisch.de/ empfehlen, die sind zuverlässig und in der Nähe der Deutschen Botschaft in Bangkok. Alternativen gibts auch https://bangkok.diplo.de/th-de/service/uebersetzerliste/1393030 

[stat]

2 hours ago, aublumberg said:

Am afraid you will need to get it translated, BOI only accepts Thai or English documents.

 

Ich kann https://www.thailaendisch.de/ empfehlen, die sind zuverlässig und in der Nähe der Deutschen Botschaft in Bangkok. Alternativen gibts auch https://bangkok.diplo.de/th-de/service/uebersetzerliste/1393030 

Even if translated not sure if they will accept it, as a German tax document is very complicated and even for a native speaker and tax professional like me difficult to understand if you do not know where each line item came from and what it entails.

 

For example capital profit will be in different line items and charged with losses from previous years etc.

Edited May 26 by stat

[K2938]

3 hours ago, stat said:

Even if translated not sure if they will accept it, as a German tax document is very complicated and even for a native speaker and tax professional like me difficult to understand if you do not know where each line item came from and what it entails.

 

For example capital profit will be in different line items and charged with losses from previous years etc.

1) So your chance to write an accompanying note explaining everything in a very easy to understand way.

2) Do however not get your hopes up too high about capital gains.  If they are significant, the BOI does not very much like them regardless of what is written on their website.  But you can try and see what happens.

[stat]

1 hour ago, K2938 said:

1) So your chance to write an accompanying note explaining everything in a very easy to understand way.

2) Do however not get your hopes up too high about capital gains.  If they are significant, the BOI does not very much like them regardless of what is written on their website.  But you can try and see what happens.

Thank you for your feedback! Could you kindly elaborate what makes you think that cap gains could pose a problem for BOI? Do you have any negative experience? Thanks!

 

NB: There is nothing easy about a German tax declaration. There are 5 different types of capital gains alone and several types of income. No way to explain this, even to a translator. I can try yes but would like to know how likely it is to get the income accepted, before I spend 3 days + on this, while having ample resources at several banks. However BOI wonders if I have enought to spend 5 years in TH. 200K USD per year=1 Mio USD should really do the trick but TIT I know.

 

 

Edited May 26 by stat

[Misty]

On 5/26/2024 at 8:30 AM, Mike Teavee said:

Capital Gains can be included (something that doesn't really make sense to me TBH)...

 

Unearned or passive income includes, but are not limited to pension, rental, capital gain, dividend, and interest payments

 

 https://ltr.boi.go.th/#type  

 

 

But I'm not sure how you prove the gain if you don't need to report it on your home country tax returns.  

 

Thanks Mike, it's interesting that capital gains are listed as an acceptable form of passive retirement income. I guess if you can establish that the gains are a sustainable/repeatable source of income it could make sense. The challenge might be to make sure they keep coming each year so that at the 5 year point the LTR visa is renewable. And of course establish that the income is in fact a gain, so return on investment, and not return of capital.

[stat]

12 hours ago, Misty said:

 

Thanks Mike, it's interesting that capital gains are listed as an acceptable form of passive retirement income. I guess if you can establish that the gains are a sustainable/repeatable source of income it could make sense. The challenge might be to make sure they keep coming each year so that at the 5 year point the LTR visa is renewable. And of course establish that the income is in fact a gain, so return on investment, and not return of capital.

It was my understading that they check 2 years (only) backwards at the 5 year mark, and that should be no problem (for me). At the 5 year mark there will be no thai tax document as capital income is not taxable per definition of the LTR visa so I hope Bank statements will be OK. If you are also a tax resident of another country you would have a tax document but that should be the exception IMHO for LTR visa holders.

Edited May 27 by stat

[oldcpu]

10 hours ago, stat said:

It was my understading that they check 2 years (only) backwards at the 5 year mark, and that should be no problem (for me).

 

That makes sense to me ... as they only require 2 years going back when 1st applying for the LTR Visa. ... But I guess we won't know for certain until some of those with the LTR visa reach the 5 year mark.

 

10 hours ago, stat said:

If you are also a tax resident of another country you would have a tax document but that should be the exception IMHO for LTR visa holders.

 

A further point to this, I believe many (most ? ) countries (such as Canada) where one is still required to file a tax return , even if one is not a 'tax resident' of that country, where this can occur when one has any derived income (over a certain amount) from that country (where one is not a resident).

 

In the case of Canada, I am a non-tax resident to Canada. But I am required to file a tax return to Canada because I receive Canadian Old Age Security and a Canadian pension.  On that same tax return I am obligated to state ALL my global income (even thou I do not pay tax to Canada on any of my global income earned outside of Canada).  Canada wants to know my global income total, so they can decide if the 'withholding tax' they already applied was enough, and whether they should  tax me more (than the with-holding tax)  on my Old Age Security and on my Canadian derived pension. 

 

Also, because I am NOT a Canadian tax resident, I can NOT apply all of the nominal Canadian resident tax deductions against my Canadian pension nor against my Canadian Old Age Security payments, so in that regard I pay a higher % tax than most Canadian tax residents would pay, if they received the same Canadian income as myself. 

 

I did receive a notification from the Canadian Revenue Service offering to treat me as a Canadian tax resident even thou I resided outside of Canada (this was presumably offered by them so that I could use more of the Canadian tax deductions ???  ) , BUT if I did that, I would have to pay tax on my global income from outside of Canada to Canada.  I did a quick check of the numbers, and for me to be treated as a Canadian tax resident (who actually resides outside of Canada), the tax to Canada on my non-Canadian income (that I receive from outside of Canada) would be large, so it made no sense to agree to be treated as a Canadian tax resident.

 

I do thou, file an income tax return to Canada every year, and when I applied for the LTR visa, the official Canadian assessment of my taxes from that did come in handy (as it states my total global income). This is even thou I am not a tax resident of Canada.

 

Edited May 28 by oldcpu

[ballpoint]

On 5/26/2024 at 8:30 AM, Mike Teavee said:

Capital Gains can be included (something that doesn't really make sense to me TBH)...

 

Unearned or passive income includes, but are not limited to pension, rental, capital gain, dividend, and interest payments

 

 https://ltr.boi.go.th/#type  

 

 

But I'm not sure how you prove the gain if you don't need to report it on your home country tax returns.  

 

As I said in (one of the many) the tax thread(s), I have the same issue.  My fund managers send me an annual statement showing the earnings of each fund for that year (from dividends etc), which I get reinvested, but these rarely surpass USD80k.  The true earnings are the combined gain in unit prices, which almost always do exceed that amount.  But, until they are actually sold there is no proof of this gain, other than me showing the total value of the funds from year to year - which would be complicated due to the number of them.  In any event, this wouldn't be classed as a capital gain, unless I actually sell USD80k worth of them.  I suspect that even if I did so, they'd want to know that the amount was sustainable annual income, which would lead me back to the problem of showing the annual total increase in value of my holdings.  I can easily see that, by trying to follow the Wealthy Pensioner proof of income method, my loss of investment from annually selling more funds than I need to, or remitting USD250k of my capital to Thailand, would end up greater than any taxes I'd be paying here.  Maybe one day, when I'm not so interested in growing my holdings and am more interested in keeping things simple no matter the (affordable) cost, I'll jump through their hoops, but as I'm still under 60, that will be more than a few years from now.

 

In the back of my mind, there's also the nagging suspicion that one day this, or a future, government will change the tax laws making LTR holders liable for tax, and taxing all overseas income, in line with other countries.  Having provided documents proving that one earns at least USD80k per year, it would be very hard to wriggle out of paying taxes on that.  No doubt this paragraph will be jumped on by LTR holders, and there's nothing what so ever to say that both those things will happen, and I strongly hope it never does, but it's not as if governments in general, and the Thai government in particular, haven't back tracked and broken promises before.  The Australian government is doing it right now with their proposed changes to what constitutes tax residency, and redefining non-taxable Australian property.  If I could easily get an LTR here, with no change in my current investment scheme, then I would, but if I'm going to be weighing up gains and losses through complying, then I'd rather stay under the radar until I reach a definite conclusion.

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

I do thou, file an income tax return to Canada every year, and when I applied for the LTR visa, the official Canadian assessment of my taxes from that did come in handy (as it states my total global income).

Just a question. If you are married, did your tax return include your wife's name?

I am ready to apply this week for a LTR-WP visa and I have been going back & forth on whether to submit a copy of my US tax return or not and see if they ask for it. The reason is, I filed a joint tax return with my Thai wife on it, but she has no income. I wouldn't want BOI to get confused and think 1/2 of the income on my tax return is from her. My US Social Security & company pension together is more than $80,000, so it shouldn't be an issue. Do you think it matters to BOI? Will I have a problem with her name on my return?

Thanks for your reply. 

Edited May 28 by JohnnyBD
typo

[JohnnyBD]

To all,

I am ready to apply this week for a LTR-WP visa and I have been going back & forth on whether to submit a copy of my US tax return or not and see if they ask for it. The reason is, I filed a joint tax return and included my Thai wife on it, but she has no income. I wouldn't want BOI to get confused and think 1/2 of the income on my tax return is from her. My US Social Security & company pension together is more than $80,000, so it shouldn't be an issue. Do you think it matters to BOI? Will I have a problem with her name on my return? I could just delete her name off the tax return since it's an editable pdf file. Also, I read where someone said they didn't submit a tax return and they were approved.

Thanks for your reply. 

Edited May 28 by JohnnyBD
typo

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

The reason is, I filed a joint tax return with my Thai wife on it, but she has no income. I wouldn't want BOI to get confused and think 1/2 of the income on my tax return is from her.

I previously reported that I did not submit my 1040 tax return, since it was joint. However, I just looked at my submission file, and I had submitted my 1040.

 

But I did submit my applicable joint 1040, along with a cover letter explaining joint returns, 1099's, and why they accompanied the package (actually, I think somewhere in all the guidance I had seen where they wanted 1099's, along with the tax return). I did ask about whether or not they wanted the past two years' tax returns (again, there had been some mention of two years' worth, but maybe that was not for WP applications) -- but they said only last year's return.

 

So, as long as you accompany your joint tax return with your 1099's -- you should be just fine.

Edited May 28 by JimGant

[mudcat]

Or your tax transcript which truncates your name, address, and Social Security number along with a key where your SSA benefit and pension are shown as the PDF is locked.  

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just a question. If you are married, did your tax return include your wife's name?

 

Yes. I have to list her name.

 

My Thai wife also files a separate income tax return to Canada (and to Thailand).  Her income is relatively small.

 

Unfortunately, in the case of my Canadian taxes, I can NOT include her as a dependent for deductions, as I am not a Canadian tax resident.  And after cranking the numbers, it makes no financial sense for me to change to be a Canadian tax resident.

 

 

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

I am ready to apply this week for a LTR-WP visa and I have been going back & forth on whether to submit a copy of my US tax return or not and see if they ask for it. The reason is, I filed a joint tax return with my Thai wife on it, but she has no income.

 

I have no experience with joint tax returns.

 

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

I wouldn't want BOI to get confused and think 1/2 of the income on my tax return is from her. My US Social Security & company pension together is more than $80,000, so it shouldn't be an issue. Do you think it matters to BOI? Will I have a problem with her name on my return?

 

I don't think it will be a problem - but honestly, I think the easiest approach is to simply contact BoI. Phone them if you are in Thailand, and email them if outside of Thailand. Ask them first.

 

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

I previously reported that I did not submit my 1040 tax return, since it was joint. However, I just looked at my submission file, and I had submitted my 1040.

 

But I did submit my applicable joint 1040, along with a cover letter explaining joint returns, 1099's, and why they accompanied the package (actually, I think somewhere in all the guidance I had seen where they wanted 1099's, along with the tax return). I did ask about whether or not they wanted the past two years' tax returns (again, there had been some mention of two years' worth, but maybe that was not for WP applications) -- but they said only last year's return.

 

So, as long as you accompany your joint tax return with your 1099's -- you should be just fine.

Thanks. I will submit the original joint tax return just as it is, that we filed electronically along with my 1099s and verification letters from SSA and company pension. I will try to include notes if there is a note section to explain that she is a Thai citizen and doesn't have any income, and that all of the income shown on the tax return is mine. I just transferred the marriage extension stamps to my new passport today, so I'm excited to get started.

Edited May 28 by JohnnyBD
added

[JohnnyBD]

38 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Yes. I have to list her name.

 

My Thai wife also files a separate income tax return to Canada (and to Thailand).  Her income is relatively small.

 

Unfortunately, in the case of my Canadian taxes, I can NOT include her as a dependent for deductions, as I am not a Canadian tax resident.  And after cranking the numbers, it makes no financial sense for me to change to be a Canadian tax resident.

 

 

 

I have no experience with joint tax returns.

 

 

I don't think it will be a problem - but honestly, I think the easiest approach is to simply contact BoI. Phone them if you are in Thailand, and email them if outside of Thailand. Ask them first.

 

Thanks for the reply.

[JohnnyBD]

57 minutes ago, mudcat said:

Or your tax transcript which truncates your name, address, and Social Security number along with a key where your SSA benefit and pension are shown as the PDF is locked.  

Thanks for your reply. I will submit my original joint tax return with both names and see if there is a note section where I can explain she is a Thai citizen and does not have any income.

Edited May 28 by JohnnyBD

[oldcpu]

10 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Thanks for your reply. I will submit my original joint tax return with both names and see if there is a note section where I can explain she is a Thai national and does not have any income and is not applying for a LTR visa for herself.

When applying for the LTR visa one has to upload documents. It's easy to create a one page explanation ( or cover) letter to any PDF upload. I did that toward the end of my LTR application ( after different BoI requests ),  and possibly I should have included such PDF upload explanations sooner.