LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[1tent42]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

well, the LTR is not that much more expensive over the ten years and could even be cheaper in some cases.  Plus no 90-day reports, once a year just notify the BOI of your address or if you travel outside

Thailand, your report address once starts again at 365 days before reporting again, and an agent, friend or family member can just provide the BOI with your address, easy pass at airport immigration, and no taxes on remitted funds into Thailand.  I realize some folks think that this last bit might come to change but then again it might not.  Just saying, I did my at Retirement O for almost 20 years and never had to  put up 800K of my money with restrictions on my use of those funds and now I don't worry about much of anything especially immigration financial requirements.

 

The opportunity cost of 800K Baht or let's just say 400K baht ($11K USD) held in a low yield Thai bank account is enough to convince me that LTR is a cheaper option over retirement extensions.

 

Current APY for 5-year CDs hovers around 5%.  For $11K invested in CDs, the ROI will pay for the LTR visa twice over at the end of the term.  

Edited June 18 by 1tent42

[Mike Teavee]

6 minutes ago, 1tent42 said:

 

The opportunity cost of 800K Baht or let's just say 400K baht ($11K USD) held in a low yield Thai bank account is enough to convince me that LTR is a cheaper option over retirement extensions.

 

Current 5-year CDs APY hovers around 5%.  For $11K invested in CDs, it will pay for the LTR visa twice over at the end of the term.  

That's true if you meet the $80,000 pa income requirement but if you don't & need to invest $250,000 then I'd say the LTR is way more expensive in terms of opportunity costs. 

 

 

 

But it's still a great visa so I'm still planning on going down the route of showing > $40K income & investing $250K as the benefits are worth more to me than the lost opportunity costs.

[1tent42]

13 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

That's true if you meet the $80,000 pa income requirement but if you don't & need to invest $250,000 then I'd say the LTR is way more expensive in terms of opportunity costs. 

 

Ah, yes, you're correct.

[JohnnyBD]

If one can meet the requirements, the LTR visa could be less expensive for some. You could leave your 800k in your home country earning ~ 5% interest at current rates, which would more than cover the cost of the LTR required insurance. And, the 50k for 10 years would be less than the 1,900 extension + 3,800 MRE permit + 300 bank letter/certificates some are currently paying. You also have the beneifts of no 90-day reporting and no annual visits to IM if you leave the country at least once a year, because the 1-year reporting clock starts over. Then, there's the income tax on remittances benefits, which could be a very big deal. It's up to each person to decide what's best for themselves, it's that simple. Some like Leo, some like Singha. I like Sapporo, but my wife loves Guinness. 😉

Edited June 18 by JohnnyBD

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

That's true if you meet the $80,000 pa income requirement but if you don't & need to invest $250,000 then I'd say the LTR is way more expensive in terms of opportunity costs. 

I got the LTR as I could show the 80K just with one of my pensions. On that basis it was a total no brainer.

 

On the other hand, investing 250K in this country? I couldn't  as I don't have the cash and live from hand to mouth, and if I could I doubt I'd trust this place enough.

Edited June 18 by Ben Zioner

[Presnock]

SOmeone mentioned that investment into the purchase of a condo suffices...I don't know but blv it is worth checking 

 

[stat]

On 6/17/2024 at 5:49 AM, oldcpu said:

I think this is mostly the case for the Type-OA non-immigrant Visa (where the Health Insurance must be from the Thai branch of a health insurance company) but not the case for the LTR visa Health insurance requirements.

You can use all kind of health insurance countrywise for an OA visa like I did. You just need a signed letter from the insurance company that it is according to some thai rules cabinet decission etc. Insurance company filled it in and it was OK for the thai embassy.

[stat]

On 6/17/2024 at 5:56 AM, oldcpu said:

 

I am optimistic here, that the LTR visa will keep its Thai tax free status for foreign income kept out of the country and also Thailand tax free for foreign income and savings brought into the country.

 

However if one on an LTR visa was subject to tax on all overseas income, there is a good possibility for the vast majority of us, that we have already paid tax on this overseas income, and such is covered by a Double Tax Agreement (DTA) and hence possibly the main impact could be an additional paperwork exercise (having to file a Thai tax return), but with no additional direct financial impact.

 

Also, if I understand the 'wondering' (fear) , if one is taxed on overseas income not brought into Thailand but not taxed on money brought into Thailand (which reads to be contradictory) ... but if that is the case, then a simple solution if no DTA would be to bring the full amount of one's foreign income tax free into Thailand.

 

Having typed all of that, again, I am optimistic that it won't come to that, and that at least for now, the LTR visa's tax protections (as noted in a Royal decree) will be respected.

 

Capital gains are not taxable in the other country so usually no taxes have been paid in any other country, as long as you are not tax resident in the other country.

 

Example:

 

European living full time in TH does not pay taxes on capital gains in any country i.e. Brokerage account in GER or US etc.

 

Beforehand no taxes had to be paid, now taxes of 35% are due on all capital gains after crossing the threshold!

Major difference! The idea of bringing hundredthousands of USD per year into Thailand is not a smart one because of possible problems to get the money out again in the future (remember Malaysia back in the days) and also because the investment opportunities are very little in Thailand or the brokerages not up to date with some exceptions.

 

DTAs are not applicable as not a DTA issue (regarding cap gains). Dividends, rental payments may be covered by DTA.

[stat]

On 6/17/2024 at 6:42 AM, oldcpu said:

 

Well - IMHO it is NOT confined to USA citizens in how this should be considered.

 

Canada taxes both residents AND non-residents for any income derived in Canada.  This means I pay Canadian tax on all Canadian sourced income, ... which means I pay Canadian tax on my Canadian Old Age Security, I pay Canadian tax on my Canadian Pension, and I pay Canadian tax on any interest earned from money in Canada. And that is covered by a DTA with Thailand so I do not pay double tax on that - regardless of whether I was still on a Type-O visa or on an LTR visa.

 

Further, Germany has a withholding tax on my German pension (ie I pay tax to Germany on German sourced income), even thou I live in Thailand.  An that also is covered by a DTA between Germany/the EU and Thailand, so again, I do not pay double tax on that.

 

So as I noted, I believe for many of us, for our foreign sourced income, we DO PAY TAX in the source country, and further there is a DTA agreement and we will not pay double tax.  

 

Possibly only those, who have managed to structure their income such they pay tax no where, might be concerned here.  And I suspect that 'lucky' group who did an excellent job of managing their income, are in the minority. ... I do fully appreciate they (this minority) need to watch this carefully and they may have some concerns.

It is my understanding that german government pension is not taxed by Germany. Did you contact Neubrandenburg Finanzamt regarding your taxation? For company pension they may be taxed according to the way they were accrued.

Edited June 18 by stat

[stat]

On 6/17/2024 at 8:09 AM, oldcpu said:

 

My point is one need NOT reduce the "Planet to the USA" as the vast majority of us are NOT from the USA and we have already paid tax on our foreign sourced income.  I gave two EXCELLENT examples, that being Canada and Germany.  Clearly we are NOT part of "planet USA" as coined in your post but we have paid taxes elsewhere.

 

And as Presnock pointed out, one does not need $80K USD equivalent (for LTR-WP), but rather for obtaining the Thailand LTR-WP visa only $40K US equivalent, plus a $250K investment in Thailand (such as the ownership of a foreign freehold condo worth that much). MANY pensions do reach the $40K US$ equivalent (such as my pensions, if one adds them up and I hence I qualified for the LTR-WP, which I currently have).

 

Again, I believe those most concerned here are those IN A MINORITY who structured their income (either by choosing the "right" employers or by other means).  I DO CONSIDER choosing the right employer a method to 'structure one's income'. 

 

I also note the other group who may be concerned, are those in a minority whose country does not have a DTA with Thailand (and those without an LTR visa).

 

Still, I note at present time, this is ALL speculation about tax with regard to LTR visa holders. As has been posted by others, BoI when asked still maintain foreign income is NOT taxed for LTR visa holders, whether or not it is brought into Thailand.

All Emails I received so far from BOI state that ONLY remitted income remains tax free. I have asked 2 times about unremitted income and they apparently can or do not want to answer the question about unremitted income. I now asked a third time about unremitted income being tax free from thai tax.

 

There is nothing special about living tax free in a country with a territorial tax system (PHILS, SG, etc). I think the majority of people with 80K passive income are very aware on how to avoid being taxed on their world wide income. I try not to have any german sourced income while living in TH.

Edited June 18 by stat

[JimGant]

21 minutes ago, stat said:

All Emails I received so far from BOI state that ONLY remitted income remains tax free. I have asked 2 times about unremitted income and they apparently can or do not want to answer the question about unremitted income

Geez, that bomb about taxing worldwide income just came out -- without amplification. How could BoI possibly have a read yet on that?

[SHA 2 BKK]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

SOmeone mentioned that investment into the purchase of a condo suffices...I don't know but blv it is worth checking 

 

I have a condo.   It’s suffices.  My Australian Government pension is over $US80k some weeks and under on others.   Depends on the exchange rate.  When I applied it was just under $US80k but my condo was counted and I got my LTR. 

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, stat said:

All Emails I received so far from BOI state that ONLY remitted income remains tax free. I have asked 2 times about unremitted income and they apparently can or do not want to answer the question about unremitted income. I now asked a third time about unremitted income being tax free from thai tax.

I don't blame BOI for not answering. They probably don't know anymore than we do, because no legislation on that issue has been passed or even been introduced. Currently, unremitted overseas income is tax free. And, remitted income by a LTR-WP visa holder is tax free, as per BOI and Royal Decree 743. If anything changes, I'm sure we will all find out as soon as it happens.

Edited June 18 by JohnnyBD

[oldcpu]

3 hours ago, stat said:

You can use all kind of health insurance countrywise for an OA visa like I did. You just need a signed letter from the insurance company that it is according to some thai rules cabinet decission etc. Insurance company filled it in and it was OK for the thai embassy.

 

May I ask (out of my curiosity) as to what (1) immigration office in Thailand, and (2) what non-Thai branch of a Health Insurance company? 

 

My understanding is the 'signed form' is ONLY applicable for the initial Type-OA visa application and not for the subsequent extensions. I know Phuket immigration do NOT accept that form for an extension. Instead they give one a list of Thai branches of Health Insurance companies and one MUST use one of those.

 

Further, my Insurance company Cigna Europe FLAT OUT REFUSED to sign that form re: Thai cabinet rules. They replied they did not know the Thai cabinet rules (even thou I provided to them both Thai language and translations to English language version of the Cabinet ruling) and they further replied they had no interest in doing so. Instead they advised I had to use their 'stock ' form.

 

[oldcpu]

3 hours ago, stat said:

 

Capital gains ....

 

 

Many of us do NOT rely on Capital gains for our income.  I definitely do NOT.   Those that do rely on such (IMHO) need to give serious consideration as to where they live - and not just in regards to Thailand.

 

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, stat said:

All Emails I received so far from BOI state that ONLY remitted income remains tax free. I have asked 2 times about unremitted income and they apparently can or do not want to answer the question about unremitted income. I now asked a third time about unremitted income being tax free from thai tax.

 

 

Please let us know if you get an updated reply.

[oldcpu]

3 hours ago, stat said:

It is my understanding that german government pension is not taxed by Germany. Did you contact Neubrandenburg Finanzamt regarding your taxation? For company pension they may be taxed according to the way they were accrued.

 

They sent me a letter - advising me NOT to file a tax return unless my income situation (globally) was to significantly change - they stated in the letter that was because I was a non-resident to Germany.  However if one looks at the pension amount, and the statements they provide online, it is clear there is a withhold amount.

[stat]

On 6/17/2024 at 10:45 AM, Presnock said:

well I have read the requirements for both, benefits as well and COSTS!  how about the lack of 90-day reports, not taxes on remitted foreign income, only 50K.  Most of what I see in the elite is a waste of my time anyway...Just saying as I would not even consider the elite if the cost was as cheap as the LTR but since it is 10-30 times more expensive, sure don't know why folks shell out that for what they get...yeah, not having to go yearly to immigrationis okay but ...my opinion anyway.

But it has the most valuable name to it and I could consider myself elite that in itself is worth it, or not ... 😁

[stat]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

May I ask (out of my curiosity) as to what (1) immigration office in Thailand, and (2) what non-Thai branch of a Health Insurance company? 

 

My understanding is the 'signed form' is ONLY applicable for the initial Type-OA visa application and not for the subsequent extensions. I know Phuket immigration do NOT accept that form for an extension. Instead they give one a list of Thai branches of Health Insurance companies and one MUST use one of those.

 

Further, my Insurance company Cigna Europe FLAT OUT REFUSED to sign that form re: Thai cabinet rules. They replied they did not know the Thai cabinet rules (even thou I provided to them both Thai language and translations to English language version of the Cabinet ruling) and they further replied they had no interest in doing so. Instead they advised I had to use their 'stock ' form.

 

I used Hanse Merkur expat 5 year insurance. I did not go into extension with the OA as I was only 2 years in TH. I wondered myself that Hanse would sign the cabinet ruling certification but I got it within 24 hours as they are used to it. I can highly recommend hanse Merkur just 59 or 69€ per month and they shelled out more in the 2 years then I paid them without any problems other then it took them like 6 weeks. NB: You do have to have a residence in GER when applying.

[stat]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

They sent me a letter - advising me NOT to file a tax return unless my income situation (globally) was to significantly change - they stated in the letter that was because I was a non-resident to Germany.  However if one looks at the pension amount, and the statements they provide online, it is clear there is a withhold amount.

Government pension should be paid out tax free, maybe contact FA Neubrandenburg or the Rentenversicherungsanstalt apparently there are some folks there who do not understand DBAs. Thailand has the sole right to taxation, but TH up to now did not bother to tax the German "Rente", so it is/was tax free.

Edited June 18 by stat

[stat]

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

Geez, that bomb about taxing worldwide income just came out -- without amplification. How could BoI possibly have a read yet on that?

I told BOI to let me know if they do not know the answer to my question which I could understand but then again loss of face. If the royal degree stands and exempts from all kind of income tax on ww income they should know. Anyway I think the final say is with TRD.

 

I just saw a Bloomberg piece about some questions about an interview from Thaksin regarding TH politics and that maybe a change regarding the PM and his coalition is imminent. Instantly I thought about how the Thai elite would like to be taxed on their WW income and maybe it is their doing. Lets hope the WW income tax goes the same way as the 300 Baht tourist tax.

Edited June 18 by stat

[Presnock]

10 hours ago, stat said:

But it has the most valuable name to it and I could consider myself elite that in itself is worth it, or not ... 😁

if it took getting the elite with its costs makes you feel ELITE, then I truly feel sorry for you.  

[oldcpu]

14 hours ago, stat said:

I used Hanse Merkur expat 5 year insurance. I did not go into extension with the OA as I was only 2 years in TH. I wondered myself that Hanse would sign the cabinet ruling certification but I got it within 24 hours as they are used to it. I can highly recommend hanse Merkur just 59 or 69€ per month and they shelled out more in the 2 years then I paid them without any problems other then it took them like 6 weeks. NB: You do have to have a residence in GER when applying.

 

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

I think thou, I will stick with my current Global Health Insurance with Cigna Europe. It does cost a LOT more than what you pay Hanse Merkur, but it has excellent coverage, and further it covers both my wife (age-57) and myself (age-70), and it is heavily subsidized as part of my pension.

.

[Presnock]

16 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

Please let us know if you get an updated reply.

AS someone has already mentioned, How could the BOI know anything about a program that has not even been floored for approval nor voted on.  We all have been waiting, especially those that feel 180 days is the max they can be here.  You will have to wait like the rest of us.  Unlike most things in this country and politics are slow moving...except for when a change might come forth.

[stat]

10 hours ago, Presnock said:

if it took getting the elite with its costs makes you feel ELITE, then I truly feel sorry for you.  

Apparently you are immune to sarcasm...🙃

Edited June 19 by stat

[stat]

9 hours ago, Presnock said:

AS someone has already mentioned, How could the BOI know anything about a program that has not even been floored for approval nor voted on.  We all have been waiting, especially those that feel 180 days is the max they can be here.  You will have to wait like the rest of us.  Unlike most things in this country and politics are slow moving...except for when a change might come forth.

The BOI can state for example that LTR provides a blanket exception or it could state that a new law or directive can entail that even LTR visa holders have to pay income tax on remitted or non remitted income. BOI is now stating that remitted income is tax free.

 

They could even state we do not know anything .
🙂

[Presnock]

10 hours ago, stat said:

The BOI can state for example that LTR provides a blanket exception or it could state that a new law or directive can entail that even LTR visa holders have to pay income tax on remitted or non remitted income. BOI is now stating that remitted income is tax free.

 

They could even state we do not know anything .
🙂

I have never been in any country where an office within the government would predict the outcome of discussions on any particular bill, especially one that is so controversial.  We know what has been initially proposed but the fact is, it would still take months of discussions for the world wide income taxes program to be approved, especially with some leaders within the government might be gone.  SO should the BOI become a SEER, ask for a crystal balll or witch doctor and explain all the ramafications of this as yet tax program under discussion?

[Presnock]

10 hours ago, stat said:

The BOI can state for example that LTR provides a blanket exception or it could state that a new law or directive can entail that even LTR visa holders have to pay income tax on remitted or non remitted income. BOI is now stating that remitted income is tax free.

 

They could even state we do not know anything .
🙂

IN my opinion, that is exactly the case, and shouild be very OBVIOUS to all the readers here!

[JohnnyBD]

On 6/18/2024 at 4:25 PM, stat said:

All Emails I received so far from BOI state that ONLY remitted income remains tax free. I have asked 2 times about unremitted income and they apparently can or do not want to answer the question about unremitted income. I now asked a third time about unremitted income being tax free from thai tax.

BOI probably blocked you after you sent your second request. 

[stat]

7 hours ago, Presnock said:

IN my opinion, that is exactly the case, and shouild be very OBVIOUS to all the readers here!

However BOI still states remitted income is not taxable which clearly refutes your main argument that nothing can be said by anybody. For me and many others the main alure is the tax exempt status in combination with a 10 year visa. I do not want a 10 year visa for a country that charges 35% tax on cap gains and on top asks me to notarize 200 pages long bank statements.

Edited June 20 by stat