Self insure v health insurance

[internationalism]

all health policies do include also accident - you will be treated to the max value of your policy/per accident.

Stand alone PA are not much worth when comes to medical care, usually in low tens of thousands - so more for wounds, injuries, but barely for operations and longer hospital stay.

They are only good for disability.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by internationalism

[internationalism]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Are the current premium levels that low?  I'm just about to pay $2,300 to cover myself (62), wife and son on a family policy, and it's only slightly cheaper than I was quoted by other insurers? 

I think WrLife is some 45% cheaper to the Pacific Cross - for similar plans Serenity $80k and premier plus 3mln baht their premium is $780 (so 28k baht) and 50k baht.

The WrLife is quite complex, has many variables. Probably you included also outpatient from them, but not from the others.

I am really tempted to switch to them.

But if you have really compared well those policies, the better option will be to go with only slightly more expensive insurers, who are well established, with smaller risk from them.

Ask an agent to compare all those policies for you, outline benefits and downfalls of each. I think only the AA has WrLife on their books 

Edited August 27, 2022 by internationalism

[anchadian]

It's now all coming together.  I certainly wouldn't entertain WrLife.

THG Chairman banned from holding an executive post for 42 months
SEC has agreed to bar Thonburi Healthcare Group THG Chairman and CEO Dr. Boon Vanasin from holding any executive post in the company for 42 months and has fined him 2.3 million baht for alleged share price manipulation.

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/thg-chairman-banned-from-holding-an-executive-post-for-42-months/

[anchadian]

15 minutes ago, anchadian said:

It's now all coming together.  I certainly wouldn't entertain WrLife.

THG Chairman banned from holding an executive post for 42 months
SEC has agreed to bar Thonburi Healthcare Group THG Chairman and CEO Dr. Boon Vanasin from holding any executive post in the company for 42 months and has fined him 2.3 million baht for alleged share price manipulation.

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/thg-chairman-banned-from-holding-an-executive-post-for-42-months/

Taken from another thread:

As long as Dr Boon puts his name behind the whole thing,  you should be pretty safe. How long? God knows.

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, internationalism said:

all health policies do include also accident - you will be treated to the max value of your policy/per accident.

Stand alone PA are not much worth when comes to medical care, usually in low tens of thousands - so more for wounds, injuries, but barely for operations and longer hospital stay.

They are only good for disability.

 

PAs are what they are, for accidents, Axa has medical cover per accident up to 500k i think, my Axa is 250k. Also no deductible unlike health insurance polices

Edited August 27, 2022 by scubascuba3

[jerrymahoney]

18 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

You bought insurance based on weaker evidence than that, with nothing to evidence their financial stability and paying out on personal accidents is totally different to a proper health insurance claim

I went back and reviewed my email correspondence -- 30 emails back-&-forth with WrLife prior to submitting application mostly with Patrick Lorenz himself.

[scubascuba3]

7 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

I went back and reviewed my email correspondence -- 30 emails back-&-forth with WrLife prior to submitting application mostly with Patrick Lorenz himself.

you weren't able to tell us who was the insurance underwriter and which regs they followed, that was asked numerous times on that other thread 

[jerrymahoney]

13 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

like i said personal accident claim no problem, we need to see a few years to see how it pans out

That isn't what you said last April:

 

Claim with WRLife? how does that effect your premium now? with an accident they can't refuse a claim really, no get out

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1254832-private-health-cover-increased-by-almost-100-in-2-years/page/4/#elControls_17302315_menu

 

[jerrymahoney]

2 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

you weren't able to tell us who was the insurance underwriter and which regs they followed, that was asked numerous times on that other thread 

That's because as I wrote they do not have one steady for-all-times- underwriter. And I know which regs they follow based upon my payment. 

[scubascuba3]

7 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

That isn't what you said last April:

 

Claim with WRLife? how does that effect your premium now? with an accident they can't refuse a claim really, no get out

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1254832-private-health-cover-increased-by-almost-100-in-2-years/page/4/#elControls_17302315_menu

 

I'm saying the same thing April and now, maybe you're misunderstanding it, with a personal accident they can't really deny a claim and start quoting preexisting conditions,

[jerrymahoney]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

I'm saying the same thing April and now, maybe you're misunderstanding it, with a personal accident they can't really deny a claim and start quoting preexisting conditions,

OK -- maybe my  next claim will be for a stroke or kidney failure so you can get a better handle on their possible longevity

[perconrad]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:12 AM, sanuk711 said:

No Chris.B....... I was talking to scubascuba3 about his policy being cut off at 65.......  

 

the age limit for the one I mentioned to you  is 100 years......but cost 5,000Bht a year not 2,500Bht for the under 65

 

I have only looked at 2 banks that I have been with, but I think they are all the same.

 

https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/My-Family-and-Me/Bancassurance/BKI/PA-1st

 

 

I have an accident insurance directly with Bangkok Insurance Public Company Ltd.

 

I am 75 and pay thb 6,440. It covers for Motorbike accidents with thb 200,000 for hospital and thb 500,000 for the wife if the accident is fatal.

[scubascuba3]

20 minutes ago, perconrad said:

I have an accident insurance directly with Bangkok Insurance Public Company Ltd.

 

I am 75 and pay thb 6,440. It covers for Motorbike accidents with thb 200,000 for hospital and thb 500,000 for the wife if the accident is fatal.

It's worth double checking the policy doc as I've found them to be ambiguous, i doubt your cover is 200,000 medical cover per accident because of your age, premium and insurer

[brewsterbudgen]

5 hours ago, internationalism said:

I think WrLife is some 45% cheaper to the Pacific Cross - for similar plans Serenity $80k and premier plus 3mln baht their premium is $780 (so 28k baht) and 50k baht.

The WrLife is quite complex, has many variables. Probably you included also outpatient from them, but not from the others.

I am really tempted to switch to them.

But if you have really compared well those policies, the better option will be to go with only slightly more expensive insurers, who are well established, with smaller risk from them.

Ask an agent to compare all those policies for you, outline benefits and downfalls of each. I think only the AA has WrLife on their books 

It's too late now (for me).  I've used the same broker for nearly 10 years and I've gone with his recommendation and switched to WRLife for my policy, and with effect from next month, now for my (non-Thai) wife and son.  All our policies are inpatient only.

[perconrad]

35 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

It's worth double checking the policy doc as I've found them to be ambiguous, i doubt your cover is 200,000 medical cover per accident because of your age, premium and insurer

I have checked and it is thb 200,000 for medical, thb 500,000 for loss of life and dismemberment. max. thb 4,000 for room and thb 8,000 for ICU pr. day and it covers for MC accidents.

 

I don't have cover for payments pr day or week after an accident

 

I have the insurance via a broker.

Edited August 27, 2022 by perconrad
More info

[Sheryl]

19 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

You are suggesting that there are no actuaries at their underwriting syndicates?

 

It is totally unclear who actually underwrites these policies. Not one person with a policy from them has bern able to state who their underwriter is.

 

Certainly their premium strucure relative to the benefits would not stand up to an actuarial analysis. 

[jerrymahoney]

4 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

It is totally unclear who actually underwrites these policies. Not one person with a policy from them has bern able to state who their underwriter is.

 

Certainly their premium strucure relative to the benefits would not stand up to an actuarial analysis. 

From WrLife English Language policy document:

 

ANY INSURANCE FROM AN INTERNAL BROKER
We are also licensed broker and we can find covers from any provider even from competitors.
The WrLife global architecture also owns brokerage companies. One is in France for example and has the insurance broker license for all Europe.

 

*************************************

 

Note the word "covers" as in plural.

 

As for what is certain I have no comment.

[scubascuba3]

55 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

From WrLife English Language policy document:

 

ANY INSURANCE FROM AN INTERNAL BROKER
We are also licensed broker and we can find covers from any provider even from competitors.
The WrLife global architecture also owns brokerage companies. One is in France for example and has the insurance broker license for all Europe.

 

*************************************

 

Note the word "covers" as in plural.

 

As for what is certain I have no comment.

means nothing useful, nothing about underwriter 

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

means nothing useful, nothing about underwriter 

As you have said.

 

Someone wrote earlier another similar topic, there is no reason for an insurer not to disclose who is their underwriter.

 

Obviously, the WrLife people disagree.

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by jerrymahoney

[jerrymahoney]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:50 PM, Sheryl said:

 

It is totally unclear who actually underwrites these policies. Not one person with a policy from them has bern able to state who their underwriter is.

 

Certainly their premium strucure relative to the benefits would not stand up to an actuarial analysis. 

So as you noted on another Health topic *:

 

"Nonetheless he wanted my personal opinion -- opinion not professional advise -- on what lab tests make sense and I offered it."

 

So I will assume the post above is also your opinion and not professional -- as in insurance professional -- advice.

 

* https://aseannow.com/topic/1269642-hello-sherylis-there-a-decent-urologist-i-can-see-at-vachira-government-hospital-in-phuket/?do=findComment&comment=17570467

 

 

[jerrymahoney]

To add to 2 questions on here:

 

1. WrLife premium policy. When I applied for WrLife NOV 2021, I was given 2 quotes. For application at age 70, the annual premium would be US$ 2508 per year. If I applied at age 71 it would be US$ 3841 per year. So that may address their way of, or not, age-related premium increases.

 

2. Underwriters. This from April International UK website:

https://uk.april-international.com/en/living-abroad/long-term-international-health-plan

 

(1.) If your insurance is contracted from outside of the EU/EEA the product is designed, administered and distributed by APRIL International UK and insured by either AXA XL Insurance Company UK Limited or AXA XL Underwriting Agencies Limited.

 

Catlin Group Limited was a Bermuda-based specialty insurance and reinsurance company. Catlin operated six underwriting hubs worldwide and operated more than 55 offices worldwide. It owned the largest syndicate at Lloyd's of London, based on 2011 gross written premiums. Catlin shares were listed on the London Stock Exchange until it was acquired by XL Group plc in May 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catlin_Group

 

**************************************

 

So in virtually all cases, no matter who is listed as the healthcare underwriter, at least part of it, if not all of it, ends up at Lloyd's.

Edited August 29, 2022 by jerrymahoney

[Lorry]

14 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

To add to 2 questions on here:

 

1. WrLife premium policy. When I applied for WrLife NOV 2021, I was given 2 quotes. For application at age 70, the annual premium would be US$ 2508 per year. If I applied at age 71 it would be US$ 3841 per year. So that may address their way of, or not, age-related premium increases.

 

2. Underwriters. This from April International UK website:

https://uk.april-international.com/en/living-abroad/long-term-international-health-plan

 

(1.) If your insurance is contracted from outside of the EU/EEA the product is designed, administered and distributed by APRIL International UK and insured by either AXA XL Insurance Company UK Limited or AXA XL Underwriting Agencies Limited.

 

Catlin Group Limited was a Bermuda-based specialty insurance and reinsurance company. Catlin operated six underwriting hubs worldwide and operated more than 55 offices worldwide. It owned the largest syndicate at Lloyd's of London, based on 2011 gross written premiums. Catlin shares were listed on the London Stock Exchange until it was acquired by XL Group plc in May 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catlin_Group

 

**************************************

 

So in virtually all cases, no matter who is listed as the healthcare underwriter, at least part of it, if not all of it, ends up at Lloyd's.

Jerry has a point here.

In this business,  it is not unusual at all to have different underwriters for different parts of your business, to switch underwriters often, to sell your business,  and to not be too open about it. Because you customers won't like it.

Remember Nordic Health (from Denmark, but really from Germany,  and now from Hong Kong)? BDAE switched underwriters and service providers several times in the last 10

years, from different countries and jurisdictions. April Thailand is underwritten by LMG.

 

But it is very unusual to be so opaque as WrLife.

[Nyancat]

Hi, guys. I have worked in expat insurance industry for a few years. In 2021, I had a chance to work in a brokerage that has partnership with WRLife. Now, there is a certain reason why certain brokers are very confident in WRLife - there is no underwriting process. They literally do not care if you were 120 years old (maximum age limit to apply if I remember correctly). They do not check for any pre-existing conditions/require health checkup upon application stage. Instead of these time-taking risk assessment processes, they approve the application right away! Sometimes, the company owner answers the queries himself. Wow, can’t tell if that is supposed to be impressive customer service mind or he does not have any other tasks to do at a ghost company. Tldr; Fast approval = Easy closed deals

 

Nope, I could not bring myself to sell this. I mean I had to study their benefits and conditions to be able to pitch to prospects, but from all broker materials available I could not find out who the heck their insurer/underwriter is. Dubious af. 
 

Now, I know a colleague who sold it and her client had a small claim, coordination for direct-billing went ok in this case. But really, their “shareholders” pyramid scheme will one day collapse. I have been spying on who would say something about WRLife. I guess it’s just me. Until either they went bankrupt or the OIC caught them.
 

Anyway, I am not really here to find customers. Just want to let it out that some of your “reasonable premiums” stories are definitely too good to be true. Always, always check for company financials, credibility, network hospital and whether it is a legit company licensed to operate in Thailand/SEA. 
 

Good luck out there.

[jerrymahoney]

As attributed to Mark Twain: The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated.

 

Because of age, pre-existing conditions, cost and other factors, some people were left with not much of choice to go elsewhere.

 

BTW WrLife, even though they are an advertiser on AN, they know that there are posts that suggest that they do not say who is their (sole) underwriter, under what jurisdiction is their policies, that their business model is unsustainable and may (at some point) implode.

 

I know they are aware of this because I asked them. And, at least on here, it seems they have chosen not to respond.

Edited August 29, 2022 by jerrymahoney

[Nyancat]

Insurance is a business, not a charity. At least some aren’t disguised charities that will one day vanish with your money. 

[jerrymahoney]

3 minutes ago, Nyancat said:

Insurance is a business, not a charity. At least some aren’t disguised charities that will one day vanish with your money. 

If they vanish right now, I will be vanishing with their money. They have already paid a claim for me this year that will take them about 7 years premiums to break even on me.

[Nyancat]

I would let you win your bet too, just here alone god knows how many businesses you help bring in. 

[jerrymahoney]

4 minutes ago, Nyancat said:

I would let you win your bet too, just here alone god knows how many businesses you help bring in. 

I've been told what goes on here at AN is a pittance to what goes on at Facebook.

 

But I've told on here since my claim was for an accident hip fracture, that isn't a REAL claim as in a pure medical condition that could have been pre-existing so that don't count.

Edited August 29, 2022 by jerrymahoney

[scubascuba3]

57 minutes ago, Nyancat said:

Hi, guys. I have worked in expat insurance industry for a few years. In 2021, I had a chance to work in a brokerage that has partnership with WRLife. Now, there is a certain reason why certain brokers are very confident in WRLife - there is no underwriting process. They literally do not care if you were 120 years old (maximum age limit to apply if I remember correctly). They do not check for any pre-existing conditions/require health checkup upon application stage. Instead of these time-taking risk assessment processes, they approve the application right away! Sometimes, the company owner answers the queries himself. Wow, can’t tell if that is supposed to be impressive customer service mind or he does not have any other tasks to do at a ghost company. Tldr; Fast approval = Easy closed deals

 

Nope, I could not bring myself to sell this. I mean I had to study their benefits and conditions to be able to pitch to prospects, but from all broker materials available I could not find out who the heck their insurer/underwriter is. Dubious af. 
 

Now, I know a colleague who sold it and her client had a small claim, coordination for direct-billing went ok in this case. But really, their “shareholders” pyramid scheme will one day collapse. I have been spying on who would say something about WRLife. I guess it’s just me. Until either they went bankrupt or the OIC caught them.
 

Anyway, I am not really here to find customers. Just want to let it out that some of your “reasonable premiums” stories are definitely too good to be true. Always, always check for company financials, credibility, network hospital and whether it is a legit company licensed to operate in Thailand/SEA. 
 

Good luck out there.

What you say makes 100% sense, thing is customers on this thread won't listen, their loss

[jerrymahoney]

35 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

What you say makes 100% sense, thing is customers on this thread won't listen, their loss

Not yet. So keep your powder dry on your I-Told-You-So's.

 

They've been a registered UK business since 2015.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by jerrymahoney