Should Expats Be Able to Speak Thai

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

("farang" actually should mean "French")

Oh no....  here we go again.... 

[AsianAtHeart]

Just now, DrJoy said:

I have seen 100s of Thais living in Aussie since birth, still cannot hold a conversation in English.

 

 

English is the language of Business/tourism globally, same cannot be said about Thai.

 

My Thai wife speaks central language, she is not able to comprehend what an Isaan person speaks..

 

Something to chew on

The Isaan language is essentially Lao.  It is as different from Thai as Portuguese is different from Spanish.  And just as the Portuguese understand Spanish better than the other way around, so do the Lao/Isaan understand Thai better than the reverse.

 

A look at the history will show that the Isaan region was once a part of Laos.  Theirs is actually a different language, which, mostly for political reasons, is not called "Lao" inside the Thai border.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, AsianAtHeart said:

The Isaan language is essentially Lao.  It is as different from Thai as Portuguese is different from Spanish.  And just as the Portuguese understand Spanish better than the other way around, so do the Lao/Isaan understand Thai better than the reverse.

 

A look at the history will show that the Isaan region was once a part of Laos.  Theirs is actually a different language, which, mostly for political reasons, is not called "Lao" inside the Thai border.

 

It is for this reason that I sometimes see my attempts at communication with waitresses returning the wrong item !!

 

Quite long ago I realised it wasn’t a case of my poor Thai, it was a case that the person with whom I am speaking is not a ‘central Thai speaker, they are from Isaan, Myanmar, Cambodia, Vietnam etc and their Thai is about as good as mine.... (or worse). 

 

I also realised that when ordering, my Wife also encounters exactly the same issues and the order which I perfectly understood was obviously not understood by the waitress. 

 

When I (we) ask the waitress to repeat our order we hear the different accent, identify the difference and ask for conformation of the order..

 

At this stage we realise we are dealing with someone who can hardly understand us or someone who was hardly listening in the first place and wrote down or remembered what they thought we wanted, not what we had actually ordered. 

 

 

I suspect this puts some foreigners off trying to communicate in Thai. 

 

In busier tourist areas, particularly Phuket, I have found that sticking to English keeps things much simpler, my Wife even orders in English now in such areas... its just easier all around unless we are dealing with someone who presents as ’switched on’ and isn’t going to allowed their ears to be fooled by their eyes !... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[peterfranks]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

I knew a Brit drug dealer that had spent a year or so in the Bangkok Hilton.

His Thai was perfect.

Takes one to know one I guess

[In Full Agreement]

@ Nicky,

 

Why does it even concern you Nicky?

 

You seem a little invested in the matter.

[peterfranks]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

I like canned tuna.

Oddly enough I have 1Kg of Cadbury's Dairy milk arriving today.

I also like tuna, I only don't feed 4 from a small tin.

 

The Cadbury chocolate is probably a gift from someone who cares for the health of your kid, because you were so proud to post that you feed him Tulip cooking chocolate, with 64% sugar.

[Lacessit]

I will never be fluent in Thai, my vocal chords cannot reproduce the tones with any accuracy.

I am somewhat baffled by foreigners who flatly refuse to learn any Thai, do they expect every Thai to speak English? How would they explain they have just had a car break down, or are having a heart attack? Would they be able to ask a Thai to call an ambulance?

I can communicate with the Thais who know me quite well, strangers sometimes have problems with what I am saying. When that happens, I find another choice of words to express myself.

Admittedly elderly people have more difficulty in learning languages. I persevere with Thai, for two reasons: I want to be able to communicate, and it is good mental exercise in helping ward off Alzheimer's.

 

[BritManToo]

39 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

The less educated tend to use that term "farang,"

Are you talking about deputy PM Anutin?

And disbarred PM Prayut?

 

Whom have both publicly called white foreigners 'farang'.

[BritManToo]

46 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

An alternate version might be "kon tang dao" (คนต่างด้าว) (person of other land,

Better without the 'accent' on 'dao'.

Which translates as 'alien' person from another star(คนต่างดาว) .

[1FinickyOne]

51 minutes ago, DrJoy said:

Central Thai is spoken by less than 20 mill people.

which if you live in Central Thailand is surely quite a resounding majority... 

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

46 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

The less educated tend to use that term "farang,"

Are you talking about deputy PM Anutin?

And disbarred PM Prayut?

 

Whom have both publicly called white foreigners 'farang'.

 

 

The term ‘connected’ may be better used to describe these men rather than educated in such circumstances when evaluating their merit achievements vs education...  

 

That said, Anutin is by no means poorly educated, from wealthy parents he attended a private university in New York and also Thammarsat.... He did use the word ‘Farang’ in one (or more) of his famous announcements and that was widely criticised as ‘clumsy’....  hubris.. 

 

 

In general, when meeting with, discussing with, socialising with well educated Thai’s with whom it would be easy to associate an element of class the term ‘Farang’ is unlikely to surface at least until a friendly familiarity and closeness is achieved combined with a non-formal settings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Hammer2021]

2 hours ago, transam said:

No I didn't, I am telling you my story of fact....????

 

I cannot ever be given Thai nationality, but if I take Mrs.T to the UK, it is more or less certain she will get a Brit Passport in very little time.... 

Very little time? You mean years... And must speak  English  and must pass tests in British culture and not have NHS treatment.

[The Hammer2021]

But expats aren't eligible  for any Thai benefits- free language  lessons for  example.

[AsianAtHeart]

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It is for this reason that I sometimes see my attempts at communication with waitresses returning the wrong item !!

 

Quite long ago I realised it wasn’t a case of my poor Thai, it was a case that the person with whom I am speaking is not a ‘central Thai speaker, they are from Isaan, Myanmar, Cambodia, Vietnam etc and their Thai is about as good as mine.... (or worse). 

 

I also realised that when ordering, my Wife also encounters exactly the same issues and the order which I perfectly understood was obviously not understood by the waitress. 

 

When I (we) ask the waitress to repeat our order we hear the different accent, identify the difference and ask for conformation of the order..

 

At this stage we realise we are dealing with someone who can hardly understand us or someone who was hardly listening in the first place and wrote down or remembered what they thought we wanted, not what we had actually ordered. 

 

I suspect this puts some foreigners off trying to communicate in Thai. 

 

In busier tourist areas, particularly Phuket, I have found that sticking to English keeps things much simpler, my Wife even orders in English now in such areas... its just easier all around unless we are dealing with someone who presents as ’switched on’ and isn’t going to allowed their ears to be fooled by their eyes !...

In the case of the waitress not understanding your Thai, either your Thai was not enunciated clearly enough, or she was probably not from either Laos or the Isaan region--both of which usually understand Thai perfectly.  (Laotians from up-country who grew up without electricity, i.e. a TV or internet, will have a little more difficulty with Thai.)  Laotians typically watch Thai TV, and understand it well, yet they are not comfortable speaking it.  If the waitress, therefore, understands you easily, but replies with difficulty, or you have a hard time understanding her, then she might be Lao.  If she doesn't understand Thai well, I would be more inclined to think she might be Burmese, Khmer, or Vietnamese.

 

Grammatically, Lao and Thai are perhaps 95% the same; but lexically they are between 60-70% the same.  Many of the most common verbs, pronouns, etc. are entirely different words.

 

For me, Thai is frustrating to learn for many reasons.  Mostly, I find it a difficult language to use when clarity of communication is critical.  Thai (Lao, too) is grammatically deficient, lending to many potential misunderstandings.  This may be a part of the many conundrums endemic to the Thai society encountered by foreigners--usually with frustration.

 

For example, the following (small sampling) words do not exist in Thai:

• adopt/adoption -- word does not exist; usually replaced by "make-merit child"
• aunt (must specify "older" or "younger" than parent)
• believe -- no distinction between this and "faith"
• brother -- must say "older" or "younger"; there is no equality
• character -- word does not exist; usually "personality" is used in its place
• faith -- no distinction between this and "belief"
• gospel -- simplifies to "teachings of Jesus" or "happy news"
• God -- word can also reference earthly king or monarch
• lest -- no equivalent
• Lord -- word can also reference earthly king, monarch, etc.
• neither/nor -- no equivalent
• never -- this word, if used to reference the future, is untranslatable
• of -- no equivalent; can use a similar preposition, e.g. "from", "belonging to", "for", "about"
• sister -- must say "older" or "younger"; there is no equality

There is no punctuation in Thai, so it is not possible to use commas, semicolons, etc. to indicate where subordinate clauses should be restrictive or nonrestrictive.  For example, only one of these two English sentences can be properly translated into Thai without additional explanation.

1. "My brother, who lives in Australia, is coming."  [this translates]
2. "My brother who lives in Australia is coming."   [indistinguishable from above]

Thai is often more succinct for simple and everyday language--but start talking about abstract, theoretical, or religious concepts and Thai becomes very weak at clearly communicating the concepts.  Bigger concepts are often described using smaller words.  "Impossible" is communicated by saying "is go not can" in Thai.  Etc.

 

As an old saying goes, "familiarity breeds contempt."  I've reached that point with the Thai language.

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Very little time? You mean years... And must speak  English  and must pass tests in British culture and not have NHS treatment.

Immigration Health Surcharge is £624  (about 26,000 baht) per year and the NHS can be used. 

It would take about 5 years for my Wife to get a UK passport. 

The Life in the UK test (or whatever its called) is not easy but can be studied for. 

I’m sure fluency in English helps a lot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BritManToo]

11 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

Very little time? You mean years... And must speak  English  and must pass tests in British culture and not have NHS treatment.

Not if you are a refugee.

[1FinickyOne]

I learn Thai because I enjoy speaking with people... I don't like book learning nor upside down double ee's with a line over it. My tones are functional because the words sound different to me... and i speak in sentences so i guess if I miss a tone, it still works out ok... 

 

It can also provide some incite into the culture. 

 

I would not cop to being fluent - I would hold that word in high regard. I am fluid conversationally - most of my conversations in the course of a day are in Thai. 

[kickstart]

I speak Thai ,a case of having to, I come to Thailand to work ,with Thai farmers who do not speak any English , I had structured Thai lessons for 2 months,still could not speak more than about 10 words at the end of it ,that was a good few years ago 

Now I am married I still speak Thai, the wife and all her family do not speak any English ,so I have no chose .

Also, we have a small holding rearing a few cattle ,if I want to buy a bag  of feed or a bag of nails I just go and get them ,no waiting for the wife to go with me.

But living in a rural area with just one other farang nearby I can go weeks some time without speaking any English ,just Thai ,If could not speak any Thai I would be one lonely guy.

Also being dyslexic being able to speak any language is an achievement .   

[AsianAtHeart]

1 minute ago, 1FinickyOne said:

I would not cop to being fluent - I would hold that word in high regard.

I tend to avoid that term as well, but I qualify it by saying I am "conversationally fluent."  I read Thai, translate, and have even edited the Thai translation of a book, checking it for grammatical issues, and some spelling.  But I would not claim to be perfectly fluent.  I am comfortable with everyday Thai, but would struggle in a higher-education type setting, or where tons of "ratchasap" gets used.

[Sparktrader]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_language

 

20m to 36m speak central Thai

 

Its the official language taught in schools so of course Isaan folks speak it.

 

I was speaking to locals in Thai today.

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 hours ago, transam said:

No I didn't, I am telling you my story of fact....????

 

I cannot ever be given Thai nationality, but if I take Mrs.T to the UK, it is more or less certain she will get a Brit Passport in very little time.... 

You would need to have earnt about 20 000 Quid per year and paid UK tax  for the last three years for your Mrs to get a U.K settlement visa

[BritManToo]

Just now, Sparktrader said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_language

 

20m to 36m speak central Thai

 

Its the official language taught in schools so of course Isaan folks speak it.

 

I was speaking to locals in Thai today.

You are mistaken on several points.

They may be able to speak central Thai, but they don't use it in conversation with each other.

And if you're going to speak with them in central Thai it's probably their 3rd language.

 

[brewsterbudgen]

11 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Not if you are a refugee.

I don't think the Rohingya refugees in Thailand have to meet the visa/PR requirements that we do either!  

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You would need to have earnt about 20 000 Quid per year and paid UK tax  for the last three years for your Mrs to get a U.K settlement visa

Most of us old folk pay tax on our pensions in the UK.

I certainly do.

[1FinickyOne]

8 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

In the case of the waitress not understanding your Thai, either your Thai was not enunciated clearly enough, or she was probably not from either Laos or the Isaan region--both of which usually understand Thai perfectly.  (Laotians from up-country who grew up without electricity, i.e. a TV or internet, will have a little more difficulty with Thai.)  Laotians typically watch Thai TV, and understand it well, yet they are not comfortable speaking it.  If the waitress, therefore, understands you easily, but replies with difficulty, or you have a hard time understanding her, then she might be Lao.  If she doesn't understand Thai well, I would be more inclined to think she might be Burmese, Khmer, or Vietnamese.

 

Grammatically, Lao and Thai are perhaps 95% the same; but lexically they are between 60-70% the same.  Many of the most common verbs, pronouns, etc. are entirely different words.

 

For me, Thai is frustrating to learn for many reasons.  Mostly, I find it a difficult language to use when clarity of communication is critical.  Thai (Lao, too) is grammatically deficient, lending to many potential misunderstandings.  This may be a part of the many conundrums endemic to the Thai society encountered by foreigners--usually with frustration.

 

For example, the following (small sampling) words do not exist in Thai:

• adopt/adoption -- word does not exist; usually replaced by "make-merit child"
• aunt (must specify "older" or "younger" than parent)
• believe -- no distinction between this and "faith"
• brother -- must say "older" or "younger"; there is no equality
• character -- word does not exist; usually "personality" is used in its place
• faith -- no distinction between this and "belief"
• gospel -- simplifies to "teachings of Jesus" or "happy news"
• God -- word can also reference earthly king or monarch
• lest -- no equivalent
• Lord -- word can also reference earthly king, monarch, etc.
• neither/nor -- no equivalent
• never -- this word, if used to reference the future, is untranslatable
• of -- no equivalent; can use a similar preposition, e.g. "from", "belonging to", "for", "about"
• sister -- must say "older" or "younger"; there is no equality

There is no punctuation in Thai, so it is not possible to use commas, semicolons, etc. to indicate where subordinate clauses should be restrictive or nonrestrictive.  For example, only one of these two English sentences can be properly translated into Thai without additional explanation.

1. "My brother, who lives in Australia, is coming."  [this translates]
2. "My brother who lives in Australia is coming."   [indistinguishable from above]

Thai is often more succinct for simple and everyday language--but start talking about abstract, theoretical, or religious concepts and Thai becomes very weak at clearly communicating the concepts.  Bigger concepts are often described using smaller words.  "Impossible" is communicated by saying "is go not can" in Thai.  Etc.

 

As an old saying goes, "familiarity breeds contempt."  I've reached that point with the Thai language.

Some of this seems off base... for example, bpee sao or nong sao is sister just a bit more descriptive than just sister... 

 

why would they need a word for 'gospel' 

 

Thai language is not a direct translation of English. Nor English a translation of Thai - these are 2 languages that grew up separately.. most of the words on your list I can find a way to express in Thai... it idesn't have to be word for word - that is what makes it another language... 

 

Character can be said many ways.. kon dee would be a good person - jai boon - jai dee speaks of generosity... 

 

and LEST? who says Lest anymore? I behest thee to banish thine self lest I thrash thee... 

 

There may not be one exact word but there still are ways to express most words/thoughts/feelings/ideas... 

[1FinickyOne]

12 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I am "conversationally fluent." 

I tend to say I am conversationally fluid - as I can converse easily - though on a higher level as you note, i too would be totally lost. 

[Sparktrader]

7 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You are mistaken on several points.

They may be able to speak central Thai, but they don't use it in conversation with each other.

And if you're going to speak with them in central Thai it's probably their 3rd language.

 

No its their 2nd language. Im in Isaan. They understand and speak Thai fine.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, NickyLouie said:

Is this a reflection of people's IQ

A remark and post lke yours shows a low level of IQ imho.

[Sparktrader]

I know Thais from Surin, Burilam, KK and Udon and they are very fluent in central Thai. No problems switching from Isaan to Thai. If you spend years learning it u never forget.

 

 

[Sparktrader]

I ate at a Vietanamese restaurant, their Thai was bad but they arent Thai.