Non-immigrant O-A Visa Requirements: Seeking Clarification on Several Points

[ADCZ]

U.S. citizen here. Considering a Non-immigrant O-A visa application.

 

I just emailed an inquiry to the Thai Consulate in Los Angeles but am not holding my breath, since I had emailed the Thai Embassy in Washington three months ago and never got any reply.

 

I see discrepancies among the sets of visa requirements published online by various Thai government agencies, ranging from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to numerous embassies and consulates. It's scary that you can get denied and lose up to $200 for reason of not providing exactly the required documentation with your visa application, even though there seems to be no single most-authoritative set of requirements to go by.

 

I'm hoping I can get some clarification from people who have dealt with these issues personally, as well as solid references to immigration policies online where available, though I realize those references may not always exist and reality is just whatever the de facto way of things is.

 

For the moment, I'm referring to the Thai Embassy L.A. website's list, since it seems to be more updated than some others (e.g. with the health insurance coverage amounts having been changed from the inpatient/outpatient minimums to the one single total coverage amount): https://thaiconsulatela.thaiembassy.org/en/publicservice/non-o-a-long-stay-retirement-up-to-1-year 

 

1. About Eligibility (#4) "4.  must have the nationality of or permanent residence in the country where application is submitted;"

I'm an American citizen but am living in China on a 1-year Chinese residence permit (family reasons). On some sites, I have read that Thai immigration regards permission to live in a place at least one year as equivalent to "permanent residence" on this point, but here there is no mention of that. So, is it any problem for me now (from within China) to apply for the visa online at https://thaievisa.go.th ?

2. About Eligibility (#6) "6.  must have a health insurance for the duration of stay, with coverage for covid-19 disease with the total sum insured of THB 3,000,000 (100,000 USD) per policy year."

 

Further down, under Required Documents (#8) it says it can be a foreign or Thai insurance provider. It says that participating Thai providers are listed at http://longstay.tgia.org, but it does not say that a foreign insurance provider must be on any particular list of approved insurance providers.

 

I already have a "foreign" expat health insurance policy through Healthcare Intl. which covers me everywhere except the USA, providing more coverage than mentioned above. So, will my insurance meet the requirement? If not, does the Thai government state that anywhere publicly?

 

3. About Required Documents (#4)
" 4.   Bank statement or evidence of adequate finance showing
      – a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht; or
      – an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht; or 
      – a deposit account plus a monthly income totaling not less than 800,000 Baht. 
      – In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank
        (an original copy) is required. "

 

I find this one to be a huge mind-bender, because...

 

1. You can't normally open a bank account in Thailand UNTIL you actually get there and have a visa. Am I wrong? 
2. So, before applying for the visa, this could only reasonably mean (Thai Baht equivalent of) dollars in my USA bank account balance. Or what else could they expect, given the above in "1."?
3. And yet...the word on the net seems to be that U.S. missions are no longer (since 2018/19) providing those unverified affidavits of income anymore that the Thai immigration is still referring to as "income certificates".
4. And what exactly is a "letter of guarantee?" from the bank (in this context), anyway?

 

Level with me, okay: Is the situation just engineered such that no acceptable proof of having the requisite funds in an overseas bank is actually possible to provide, so that the only really possible option is to loan money to the Thai banking system?

Thanks, Folks

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, ADCZ said:

1. About Eligibility (#4) "4.  must have the nationality of or permanent residence in the country where application is submitted;"

I'm an American citizen but am living in China on a 1-year Chinese residence permit (family reasons)

That is OK for the visa application.

4 hours ago, ADCZ said:

2. About Eligibility (#6) "6.  must have a health insurance for the duration of stay, with coverage for covid-19 disease with the total sum insured of THB 3,000,000 (100,000 USD) per policy year."

 

Further down, under Required Documents (#8) it says it can be a foreign or Thai insurance provider. It says that participating Thai providers are listed at http://longstay.tgia.org, but it does not say that a foreign insurance provider must be on any particular list of approved insurance providers.

 

I already have a "foreign" expat health insurance policy through Healthcare Intl. which covers me everywhere except the USA, providing more coverage than mentioned above. So, will my insurance meet the requirement?

Yes it will be OK but you may need a letter summarising the coverage from the insurance provider.

 

4 hours ago, ADCZ said:

3. About Required Documents (#4)
" 4.   Bank statement or evidence of adequate finance showing
      – a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000

 

4 hours ago, ADCZ said:

 

I find this one to be a huge mind-bender, because...

 

1. You can't normally open a bank account in Thailand UNTIL you actually get there and have a visa. Am I wrong? 

Yes you are wrong.
 

But the account does not need to be in a Thai bank. In your case a Chinese bank will be OK 

 

4 hours ago, ADCZ said:

So, before applying for the visa, this could only reasonably mean (Thai Baht equivalent of) dollars in my USA bank account balance

You are correct, but you can also use a Chinese bank account, or almost any country’s account that will issue the relevant letters.

 

4 hours ago, ADCZ said:

And what exactly is a "letter of guarantee?" from the bank (in this context), anyway?

This is a standard letter certifying that you are the account holder and that the balance is the amount shown.

 

Letters like this are required for virtually all Thai extensions of stay and many visas 

 

 

4 hours ago, ADCZ said:

Is the situation just engineered such that no acceptable proof of having the requisite funds in an overseas bank is actually possible to provide,

No it is not.
You can not use the income option for your visa application because the USA will not allow an affidavit.

[wwest5829]

Forgo applying for an O-A Visa. Arrive in Thailand and you be granted a “Visa Exempt” entry (currently 30 days … as of Oct. 1 45 days). In either case, you can apply for a further 30 day stay. During your stay, make application for an “O Visa”. Read further at the Thai Immigration website. In either case you will need to have money in a Thai bank before applying to gain a yearlong extension of stay. The US no longer issues the income certificate from our Embassy so that is out. I would recommend contacting one of the agencies assisting. If coming into Chiang Mai I can give you a pm recommendation. I came in on an O-A Visa a decade ago … will be exiting Thailand and re-entering switching to an O Visa (for me an issue with getting required medical insurance). On the Visa Exempt entry I stated … just get a short term travel insurance from the website you stated. An agency can get you through the first entry hurdles … after that you can have a better handle on going forward. Good luck.

[ADCZ]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

6 hours ago, ADCZ said:

I find this one to be a huge mind-bender, because...

 

1. You can't normally open a bank account in Thailand UNTIL you actually get there and have a visa. Am I wrong? 

Yes you are wrong.
 

But the account does not need to be in a Thai bank. In your case a Chinese bank will be OK 

Thanks for your reply. I did email Siam Commercial Bank back in July, after reading that they required foreigners to hold work per,mits to open accounts. I asked about the possibility of my wife's opening one using an ED visa, as she'll be going there to study. They said an ED visa with a letter from the university would suffice. As for the idea that they would open an account for someone without a visa, the impression was quite to the contrary. Various sources online also strongly suggest that foreigners who are without work permits need visas, at least, to open bank accounts (such as Opening a Bank Account in Thailand | ThaiEmbassy.com (a commercial website) and Bank Account Opening in Thailand for Foreign Expats (konradlegal.com). Based on the information I have seen, unless I find new evidence otherwise, I will have to stick with the idea that I am not wrong about foreigners normally needing to already have visas (and certainly to be present in Thailand) to be able to open bank accounts in the country.

 

It's good to know that --as you said-- the bank in question does not need to be a Thai bank, especially in light of the above, as that would otherwise be a built-in Catch-22 situation for visa applicants --who haven't even set foot in the country yet to open a Thai bank account-- to be required to have funds in a Thai bank account they couldn't possibly have yet opened. Having said that, I'm aware that visa agents may be able to get bank accounts opened for out-of-country applicants, but, really, I think that complying with the visa application process should be set up so that average people can accomplish it without the necessity of invoking the gray-area magic of paid third party services to do so.

 

Thanks again for your time in replying and the info.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by ADCZ
Typographical error correction

[sometimewoodworker]

36 minutes ago, ADCZ said:

Thanks for your reply. I did email Siam Commercial Bank back in July, after reading that they required foreigners to hold work per,mits to open accounts.

 

36 minutes ago, ADCZ said:

I will have to stick with the idea that I am not wrong about foreigners normally needing to already have visas (and certainly to be present in Thailand) to be able to open bank accounts in the country.

There is an absolute need to be present in the country to open a Thai bank account. However the requirements will vary depending on the branch of the individual bank, not to mention the bank officer you talk to, and the Thai person accompanying you. It is possible to open an account without a visa, not the easiest but possible. You will be unlikely to get the answer you want by email. 

You will get numerous requirements given to you virtually all can be bypassed apart from the passport 
 

From Bangkok Bank

Quote

2. Foreigner without work permit

• Passport
• A reference letter issued by one of the following institutes or organizations or required document
  • Embassy located  in Thailand 
  • An overseas bank where the customer holds an account sent via SWIFT 
  • Trusted individuals such as a Bangkok Bank staff member or customer, director of a private company, permanent residence in Thailand, government or private educational institutes located in Thailand trusted by the Bank
  • Trusted companies, e.g., an employment letter from the company if the customer is in the process of applying for a work permit.
  • Document showing ownership of a fixed asset such as a condominium sale/purchase agreement (a condominium which is acceptable to Bangkok Bank) Or a property reservation agreement valued at 100,000 baht or more with a reference letter from the property developer that is acceptable to Bangkok Bank.
     

Notes: Contact addresses for both Thailand and overseas must be provided (hotel and P.O. Box addresses are not acceptable).

I have opened accounts while on a visa exempt entry staying in a guesthouse but accompanied by a longtime account holder.

 

36 minutes ago, ADCZ said:

I think that complying with the visa application process should be set up so that average people can accomplish it

It is. You are over thinking things, you are not reading the information given carefully and jumping to conclusions that are not in the instructions. 
 

Nowhere is it stated that you need a Thai bank account to apply for a visa in an embassy or consulate. There is a vast amount of incorrect information on the net. For example “your link” says you must have 

Quote

To be qualified for a bank account, you must have the following documents:

• A Thai driving license is required.
• Thai house registration or a landlord’s letter
• Work visa or a letter demonstrating your eligibility for a work visa
• A tourist or student visa is required.
• Letter of recommendation from a Thai university or embassy.
• Letter of recommendation from a “reputable” Thai citizen or a well-known Thai organization
• Communication or a letter from your current bank to the Thai bank of your choice
• Passport or photo ID

The only document you must have is a passport all the others are maybes

Edited September 12, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[ADCZ]

2 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Forgo applying for an O-A Visa. Arrive in Thailand and you be granted a “Visa Exempt” entry (currently 30 days … as of Oct. 1 45 days). In either case, you can apply for a further 30 day stay. During your stay, make application for an “O Visa”. Read further at the Thai Immigration website. In either case you will need to have money in a Thai bank before applying to gain a yearlong extension of stay.

Thanks for your response and suggestions. Earlier today, I had also come across a notice about the 30-day visa exempt period (temporarily?) changing to 45 days some time in October.

 

So, if I get you correctly, you are suggesting: come in on the visa-free exemption, get it extended another 30 days for the 1,900 Baht or thereabouts, to take advantage of this time to open a bank account to deposit the 800k Baht in order to apply for a "Non-O", which I understand is a 90-day visa.

 

You said I could then apply to extend the "O" by 1-year: by that, do you mean into an "OA"? So, in summary, this is a workaround for being able to get in and get the bank account rolling first before eventually achieving the OA, rather than trying to come in under the OA initially, right? What about any problem opening a bank account with no actual visa in hand?

 

Is your understanding that the bank funds need to be held static for 2/3 months before application? I hear versions of this everywhere but have yet to see it in writing on any immigration requirements list online.

[ADCZ]

9 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It is. You are over thinking things, you are not reading the information given carefully and jumping to conclusions that are not in the instructions.

Goodness. What was it that I didn't read carefully? Do you mean the requirements of the particular bank that you happened to have come across and quoted (which I appreciate), or the visa requirements that are so varied from source to source and full of so much ambiguity that one needs to either infer the reality from the shadow of what's left unexplained or come to a site such as this to ask for clarification?

[sometimewoodworker]

32 minutes ago, ADCZ said:

Thanks for your response and suggestions. Earlier today, I had also come across a notice about the 30-day visa exempt period (temporarily?) changing to 45 days some time in October.

 

So, if I get you correctly, you are suggesting: come in on the visa-free exemption, get it extended another 30 days for the 1,900 Baht or thereabouts, to take advantage of this time to open a bank account to deposit the 800k Baht in order to apply for a "Non-O", which I understand is a 90-day visa.

 

You said I could then apply to extend the "O" by 1-year: by that, do you mean into an "OA"? So, in summary, this is a workaround for being able to get in and get the bank account rolling first before eventually achieving the OA, rather than trying to come in under the OA initially, right? What about any problem opening a bank account with no actual visa in hand?

 

Is your understanding that the bank funds need to be held static for 2/3 months before application? I hear versions of this everywhere but have yet to see it in writing on any immigration requirements list online.

• The visa exempt is 45 days starting October 1st
• you do not need to extend your permission to stay
• you apply for a Non-O visa when you have at least 26 days remaining on your permission to stay (the minimum for some offices is 15 days, CM is longer)
• you do not need an agent but you can spend 15,000 Baht if you really want
• in the last 30 days of you 90 day permission to stay granted by the Non-O visa you apply for a 1 year permission to stay (it is not a visa)
• when you apply for the 1 year permission to stay your 800K must have been on deposit for 2 months 
• the initial 800k must have come from outside Thailand (see 5.3 under)

Edited September 12, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

17 minutes ago, ADCZ said:

Goodness. What was it that I didn't read carefully?

The requirements from the Thai embassy or consulate 

 

Though it is hardly surprising as they (the government sites) are known for being less than simple and they are writing in a language that is not their native one.

There are many sites which have wrong information, you referenced one, the problem is that you don’t know which parts are correct and which are wrong.

 

they are like the IBM instruction manuals, easy to understand if you already know the process, impossible if you don’t. ????

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

[ADCZ]

27 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Nowhere is it stated that you need a Thai bank account to apply for a visa in an embassy or consulate.

Friend, it was never my assertion that a Thai bank account was required, although, yes, indeed, much information is out there both on this forum and even on agency websites claiming that one is.

 

In my original posting, I pointed out what is said (versus what is not) on Thai government lists of visa requirements for the OA and trying to reason my way through it, concluding that under the circumstances in the range of random to impossible, generally speaking, of a foreigner's ability to open a bank account without being in Thailand and having a visa that they could only reasonably mean (in my case, for example) my US bank account balance rather than a Thai bank account...

 

8 hours ago, ADCZ said:

• You can't normally open a bank account in Thailand UNTIL you actually get there and have a visa. Am I wrong? 
• So, before applying for the visa, this could only reasonably mean (Thai Baht equivalent of) dollars in my USA bank account balance. Or what else could they expect, given the above in "1."?

 

[ADCZ]

Yes, this example form you quoted (at least as it pertains to changing from a tourist visa to a 90-day Non-O visa) adds to the confusion on the whole issue of whether Thai immigration generally expects a foreigner to use a Thai bank account when it asks for financial proof:

 

This form can apply to those who are in Thailand on visa-exempt entries and yet indicates (when you factor in the fact the "letter of guarantee from overseas embassy or consulate" is totally impossible  for applicants in the US, UK, Australia, etc. to get) that the only remaining options (either of which involves points 5.1-5.3) require providing a letter of guarantee from a Thai bank, which effectively means money must be in a Thai bank. So, you mentioned earlier that a Thai bank is not required, whereas here there is no other possible intepretation than that one is required for this major group of countries.

[sometimewoodworker]

As a Chinese resident you can apply for an Non-OA in china or the USA (not recommended due to ongoing costs and paperwork needed)

As a Chinese resident you can apply for an Non-O in china or the USA (a good idea)

 

As a Chinese resident US citizen you can come in visa exempt (you must have an onward ticket, possibly a good idea)

[sometimewoodworker]

17 minutes ago, ADCZ said:

Yes, this example form you quoted (at least as it pertains to changing from a tourist visa to a 90-day Non-O visa) adds to the confusion on the whole issue of whether Thai immigration generally expects a foreigner to use a Thai bank account when it asks for financial proof:

 

This form can apply to those who are in Thailand on visa-exempt entries and yet indicates (when you factor in the fact the "letter of guarantee from overseas embassy or consulate" is totally impossible  for applicants in the US, UK, Australia, etc. to get) that the only remaining options (either of which involves points 5.1-5.3) require providing a letter of guarantee from a Thai bank, which effectively means money must be in a Thai bank. So, you mentioned earlier that a Thai bank is not required, whereas here there is no other possible intepretation than that one is required for this major group of countries.

You are conflating requirements for a Non-O issued in Thailand with a Non-O issued outside Thailand. There is no confusion in the guide above.

 

for a Non-O issued in Thailand it must be a Thai bank.

 

for a Non-O issued outside Thailand it is very unusual to have a Thai bank account. 
 

you have the option of a Chinese bank or US one, but can use others though they are likely to be more difficult. The US account may be less easy as you are not there, so if you don’t have 800k equivalent in a Chinese bank a visa exempt entry will be your best choice.

 

As a US citizen your only option is 800k deposit, you cannot use the income options in 7 & 6

Edited September 12, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

A further confusion is that the Non-O issued outside Thailand is from the Ministry of Foreign affairs.

 

Non-O issued in Thailand is from the Thai immigration bureau.

 

 

[wwest5829]

1 hour ago, ADCZ said:

Thanks for your response and suggestions. Earlier today, I had also come across a notice about the 30-day visa exempt period (temporarily?) changing to 45 days some time in October.

 

So, if I get you correctly, you are suggesting: come in on the visa-free exemption, get it extended another 30 days for the 1,900 Baht or thereabouts, to take advantage of this time to open a bank account to deposit the 800k Baht in order to apply for a "Non-O", which I understand is a 90-day visa.

 

You said I could then apply to extend the "O" by 1-year: by that, do you mean into an "OA"? So, in summary, this is a workaround for being able to get in and get the bank account rolling first before eventually achieving the OA, rather than trying to come in under the OA initially, right? What about any problem opening a bank account with no actual visa in hand?

 

Is your understanding that the bank funds need to be held static for 2/3 months before application? I hear versions of this everywhere but have yet to see it in writing on any immigration requirements list online.

Avoid the O-A Visa (granted in your own country).Your best route is the O Visa. As an American, Visa Exempt and go through the steps, in Thailand, to gain an O Visa within Thailand. I realize it is confusing on first blush but this is the easiest route. Again, write to an agency and you can get the most current requirements at the Immigration Office in the locale where you will initially live. Enter, open the bank account (go to an office dealing with foreigners (often in malls or main branches). 

[ADCZ]

22 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are conflating requirements for a Non-O issued in Thailand with a Non-O issued outside Thailand. There is no confusion in the guide above.

 

for a Non-O issued in Thailand it must be a Thai bank.

 

for a Non-O issued outside Thailand it is very unusual to have a Thai bank account. 
 

you have the option of a Chinese bank or US one, but can use others though they are likely to be more difficult. The US account may be less easy as you are not there, so if you don’t have 800k equivalent in a Chinese bank a visa exempt entry will be your best choice.

 

As a US citizen your only option is 800k deposit, you cannot use the income options in 7 & 6

See, this hits on a crucial point, i.e. that there is any difference in how one can meet the financial requirements depending on whether the visa is issued inside or outside Thailand. 

 

No such difference is plainly stated anywhere in the lists of the visa requirements I've seen on Thai embassies, consulates, or Ministry websites. They all quote the required bank balance as being "Thai Baht"; they never say "(or the equivalent in your national currency)" to even suggest that is acceptable under any circumstances, so that would force anyone to assume that they mean literal Thai Baht under any and all circumstances -- that is, only except for the fact that it would be so illogical to ask of most foreign applicants who haven't even set foot in Thailand before and therefore couldn't possibly have Thai Baht in a Thai bank account at the time of making a visa  application from abroad. So, can I ask where you found evidence that this distinction exists?

 

Although in China on a residence permit, I keep my money in my US bank accounts. Chinese banks are not a safe place to keep one's money lately, given recent events, and they arbitrarily started cancelling foreigners' bank accounts recently anyway. So, hopefully this is true and that I can use my US bank as the source of deposited USD funds equivalent to 800k THB in an O or OA application from here on thaievisa.go.th. I would much rather get a 1-year OA initially on that financial proof basis and not have to worry about having 400k ($11,000) tied up in a Thai bank for the majority of the first year.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, ADCZ said:

See, this hits on a crucial point, i.e. that there is any difference in how one can meet the financial requirements depending on whether the visa is issued inside or outside Thailand. 

 

No such difference is plainly stated anywhere in the lists of the visa requirements I've seen on Thai embassies, consulates, or Ministry websites. They all quote the required bank balance as being "Thai Baht"; they never say "(or the equivalent in your national currency)"

You are clearly reading information that is different from the information I am, and either can’t read the information from the relevant websites or won’t get your information from the Thai embassy sites

You also don’t understand the way that the embassies are a completely different organisation from the RTP (immigration) the acronym TIT YMMV is going to be important to remember.

Many countries quote the fees and requirements in their country’s currency and explain that an equivalent currency amount in other currencies is acceptable.

 

I haven’t bothered to read the Chinese Thai embassy information as I don’t read Chinese however the currency equivalent to the Baht amounts are certainly acceptable, though they may require them to be in a Chinese bank account and in yuan.

The majority of people on a retirement extension are transitioning from an initial Non-OA to a Non-O due to the extra insurance requirements if you extend the stay from a Non-OA.

There are also a significant number of extra requirements with the Non-OA that you may be unable to fulfil given your banking and residence 

 

I don’t have a retirement extension so I don’t care, but if I did I certainly would not get an Non-OA

 

An example from the London embassy of a financial requirement

note the words “traveller’s cheque or cash equivalent to 10,000 Baht”

 

another example, requirement is evidence of £5,000 balance

more requirements from the USA $700 or $1,500

 

Remember “You're Not in Kansas Anymore”

Edited September 13, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[Lemsta69]

7 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Remember “You're Not in Kansas Anymore”

This. and as you said, TIT YMMV. you can try fighting it but you'll just get a headache. 

 

"Think too much no good, hurt your head" - random girl in Patts ????