Arizona is using a 121-year-old law — written more than a decade before it achieved statehood — to enforce a near-total abortion ban

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Not sure what your point is. I agreed that late term abortions are rare.  So I see a reasonable compromise that would probably make both sides equally unhappy.  No abortions after 15 weeks, but exceptions at any stage for rape/incest victims, or if the mother's life is in danger.  This excludes the vast majority of abortions, as your stats indicate.  

 

So what are we really fighting about?

As I pointed out repeatedly, sometimes a doctor judges a late term abortion to be necessary. The doctor should not have to run the risk of losing their license or even facing imprisonment. because of being second guessed by the government. It's especially a creepy situation in a state like Texas (others have followed) where private citizens have now been empowered to bring lawsuits against doctors doing abortions based on these private citizens' understanding of medical necessity.

[Hanaguma]

24 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As I pointed out repeatedly, sometimes a doctor judges a late term abortion to be necessary. The doctor should not have to run the risk of losing their license or even facing imprisonment. because of being second guessed by the government. It's especially a creepy situation in a state like Texas (others have followed) where private citizens have now been empowered to bring lawsuits against doctors doing abortions based on these private citizens' understanding of medical necessity.

Dont know a lot about the Texas law, it sounds ridiculous from what you are saying. I already said that what I think is reasonable would include a doctor judging whether the mother's life is in danger. Of course that means with no repercussions. 

 

Seems to me, from an outsider's view, that both sides are reacting without thinking and aren't honestly trying to reach a workable solution. 

[pedro01]

9 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m rather keen on the idea of what I do with my body being a private matter between me and the health professionals I consult with for medical advice, and not being determined by ‘public opinion’.

 

So leave it between the individual and the medical professionals they consult with.

 

There needs to be a line in the sand. An abortion at 9 months is horrific. At 1 month, reasonable.

 

Its an issue for scientists, not politicians.

 

But it isnt just about your choice. Dismembering a viable 8/9 month old foetus in the womb is straight up murder of a being that feels pain.

[Credo]

21 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

There needs to be a line in the sand. An abortion at 9 months is horrific. At 1 month, reasonable.

 

Its an issue for scientists, not politicians.

 

But it isnt just about your choice. Dismembering a viable 8/9 month old foetus in the womb is straight up murder of a being that feels pain.

Medical providers are not going to abort a viable fetus unless it is absolutely necessary to save the mother.  Once it has reached the age of viability, the mother will have to go through labor and it will have to be delivered -- or removed via caesarean.   

 

Realistically, after carrying a child that long, it's not likely that anything but extreme circumstances would get a woman to seek an abortion.   

 

 

[Iamfalang]

19 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The Republicans are showing the nation who they are.

 

Doesn't all this come back to the Bible.

 

So is it God or Jesus or someone saying abortion is bad....

 

What does the bible say, I have a feeling this is more of a church thing and the Republicans seem to listen to this bible thing more

[KhunLA]

The law is the law, the fact that it's old is irrelevant.   The Constitution is how old ... a fine document.

 

If you don't like the law change it, if not move out of the state. 

 

Apparently the people of Arizona don't like abortions.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Iamfalang said:

Doesn't all this come back to the Bible.

 

So is it God or Jesus or someone saying abortion is bad....

 

What does the bible say, I have a feeling this is more of a church thing and the Republicans seem to listen to this bible thing more

It goes right back to Ronald Regan making a pact with the Christian Right. 

Illiberalism is on the March.

 

Next up banning same sex marriage and after that contraception.

 

The message is already out:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/24/clarence-thomas-roe-gay-marriage-contraception-lgbtq

 

 

Oh, did I mention book burning?:

 

https://lithub.com/a-right-wing-pastor-held-a-literal-book-burning-in-tennessee-last-night/

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

The law is the law, the fact that it's old is irrelevant.   The Constitution is how old ... a fine document.

 

If you don't like the law change it, if not move out of the state. 

 

Apparently the people of Arizona don't like abortions.

The law is also often misused, frequently as a tool of control and oppression.

 

I’m not sure you can claim what the ‘people of Arizona’ like/don’t like.

 

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It goes right back to Ronald Regan making a pact with the Christian Right. 

Illiberalism is on the March.

 

Next up banning same sex marriage and after that contraception.

 

The message is already out:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/24/clarence-thomas-roe-gay-marriage-contraception-lgbtq

 

 

Oh, did I mention book burning?:

 

https://lithub.com/a-right-wing-pastor-held-a-literal-book-burning-in-tennessee-last-night/

 

 

Ronald Reagan, born: February 6, 1911.

 

A democracy voted the law in, a democracy can vote the law out.

 

If that's what the people of Arizona want ...  apparently not

Edited September 27, 2022 by KhunLA

[Scott]

I am not wishing to get into the discussion on abortion per se, but when I was working in Bosnia-Herzegovina after the Balkan war, there were quite a number of Muslim women who were pregnant from having been raped by Serbian soldiers.   Abortion wasn't an option legally or religiously.  I remember well one young lady who had requested an abortion, but couldn't get it.  She was counseled that as soon as the child was born, it could be removed and would be placed for adoption.  She did not want that because, in her thinking, it would still be around.   

 

She had the baby and through a number of agencies was given a lot of support in caring for the child.  It seemed to be going fairly well and she appeared to have bonded with the child.  She had several months of intensive help.   However, even with all the assistance, support and help, the first time she was left alone with the baby she killed it.  

 

When she was questioned about her choices, she stated that the child was the product of an evil act and that evil would be alive unless the child died.  Abortion may have been a better option, had it been available.  At least for her, the misery would have ended rather than the jail term she eventually was sentenced to.  

[Credo]

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

The law is the law, the fact that it's old is irrelevant.   The Constitution is how old ... a fine document.

 

If you don't like the law change it, if not move out of the state. 

 

Apparently the people of Arizona don't like abortions.

And there is a good chance the law will be changed.  The people of Arizona don't like it.  The people of Kansas didn't like it either. Interestingly, the Democrats have been going full throttle on the issue and the Republicans seem to have gone silent.   

 

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, Credo said:

And there is a good chance the law will be changed.  The people of Arizona don't like it.  The people of Kansas didn't like it either. Interestingly, the Democrats have been going full throttle on the issue and the Republicans seem to have gone silent.   

 

Not a fan of abortion, but being anti-abortion is political suicide. IMHO

 

Whether you are Republican or Democrat.

Edited September 27, 2022 by KhunLA

[stoner]

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Over 32,000 rape related pregnancies per year is not rare.

 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8765248/

vs how many multi million that are not ? 

 

any number of rapes is unacceptable. but to equate it to any large number vs total pregnancies each year is completely laughable. 

[Thailand]

Makes November even more interesting. 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, stoner said:

vs how many multi million that are not ? 

 

any number of rapes is unacceptable. but to equate it to any large number vs total pregnancies each year is completely laughable. 

It’s not me who introduced the number of rapes into the discussion.

 

Nothing at all in this subject is the subject of laughter.

[stoner]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s not me who introduced the number of rapes into the discussion.

 

Nothing at all in this subject is the subject of laughter.

your comparison is. 32k rapes out of the total number of pregnancies in america is less than a percent of all pregnancies i would assume. 

 

in fact i am willing to bet its less than half a percent. 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, stoner said:

your comparison is. 32k rapes out of the total number of pregnancies in america is less than a percent of all pregnancies i would assume. 

 

in fact i am willing to bet its less than half a percent. 

How does that justify states forbidding abortion in the case of rape or incest or both.

[stoner]

23 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How does that justify states forbidding abortion in the case of rape or incest or both.

it doesn't. nor did i say that anywhere. 

 

i am simply stating that the amount of abortions due to rape and incest compared to the total amount of pregnancies is minimal. that's the talking point pushed in these conversations. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by stoner

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, stoner said:

it doesn't. nor did i say that anywhere. 

 

i am simply stating that the amount of abortions due to rape and incest compared to the total amount of pregnancies is minimal. that's the talking point pushed in these conversations. 

 

 

 

 

One is one too many, until that is addressed it will always be used as a major talking point

[stoner]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

One is one too many, until that is addressed it will always be used as a major talking point

i agree one is too many. however the world is and will never be perfect.  you can also address any other number of things like this then such as murder and other vicious crimes. 

 

 

[placeholder]

32 minutes ago, stoner said:

i agree one is too many. however the world is and will never be perfect.  you can also address any other number of things like this then such as murder and other vicious crimes. 

 

 

.Except you can't stop murder by passing a law whereas the prohibition on providing abortions in cases of rape or incest can be retracted in precisely that way.

[Bkk Brian]

36 minutes ago, stoner said:

i agree one is too many. however the world is and will never be perfect.  you can also address any other number of things like this then such as murder and other vicious crimes. 

 

 

Takes one simple law to stop the sufferring of 1 or 32,000 thousand

[Hanaguma]

16 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Takes one simple law to stop the sufferring of 1 or 32,000 thousand

Not sure who you are arguing against here TBH.  I do not disagree with you, nor do any of the other posters I have read, unless I missed something. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Not sure who you are arguing against here TBH.  I do not disagree with you, nor do any of the other posters I have read, unless I missed something. 

Considering my post was addressed to somebody else then all you need do is follow that string, perhaps you missed it, you're forgiven

[stoner]

23 minutes ago, placeholder said:

.Except you can't stop murder by passing a law whereas the prohibition on providing abortions in cases of rape or incest can be retracted in precisely that way.

ok.

[stoner]

21 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Takes one simple law to stop the sufferring of 1 or 32,000 thousand

ok.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/27/2022 at 12:01 AM, placeholder said:

First off, the problem with this position is that it doesn't let physicians decide when an abortion is medically necessary. States with strong anti-abortion laws make nods in the direction of specifying they're allowed in the case of saving the life of the mother or protecting her from serious harm, but they aren't specific enough. And they can't be specific enough since there are so many eventualities that can arise. Ob/gyn practicioners can't do their job properly if they're worrying that they might go to prison if the government disagrees with what they've done.

And now that the Dobbs decision has focused attention on what abortion bans mean in respect to how they can affect the health of the mother, opposition has increased to bans

Support for Legalized Abortion Grows Since Dobbs Ruling, WSJ Poll Shows

More than half of voters said the issue made them more likely to cast ballots in the midterm elections; majorities oppose 6-week and 15-week abortion bans

https://www.wsj.com/articles/support-for-legalized-abortion-grows-since-dobbs-ruling-wsj-poll-shows-11662210020

 

While I support abortion on demand no questions asked for any female that wants one, this is a question of state's rights, and in this case I think the SCOTUS ruled correctly. I fail to see why such became a federal case in the first place. If a majority of state citizens want abortion, elect politicians that will rule on that. That's democracy.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/27/2022 at 1:11 PM, Iamfalang said:

Doesn't all this come back to the Bible.

 

So is it God or Jesus or someone saying abortion is bad....

 

What does the bible say, I have a feeling this is more of a church thing and the Republicans seem to listen to this bible thing more

????????????????????

The Bible doesn't ( to my knowledge ) mention abortion, but it does say something about not killing people.

One doesn't have to be religious to believe that a foetus is an unborn human being.

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

????????????????????

The Bible doesn't ( to my knowledge ) mention abortion, but it does say something about not killing people.

One doesn't have to be religious to believe that a foetus is an unborn human being.

That simple fact does seem to escape many people.  That it's not viable till 23 weeks on is a bit irrelevant IMHO

 

I did a little 'wonderful life' thinking today, and what IF, mom decided, as many seem to do, to abort me, as too much of an inconvenience or expense.   I was #3, and really, isn't 2 enough ... ????

 

Result, 3 kids would have drowned at Kata Beach, 2 wayward kids wouldn't have been put on the right path in USA, and my village orphan here would have probably ended up in the bar, like most from her village.  A few charities would have received a few less $$$

 

Gov't would have received less taxes, to help those that need help.  A few would not have been employed by myself, who earned and spent, providing more jobs down the line.

 

Starting to get the butterfly effect ... ????

 

[Berkshire]

15 hours ago, KhunLA said:

That simple fact does seem to escape many people.  That it's not viable till 23 weeks on is a bit irrelevant IMHO

 

I did a little 'wonderful life' thinking today, and what IF, mom decided, as many seem to do, to abort me, as too much of an inconvenience or expense.   I was #3, and really, isn't 2 enough ... ????

 

Result, 3 kids would have drowned at Kata Beach, 2 wayward kids wouldn't have been put on the right path in USA, and my village orphan here would have probably ended up in the bar, like most from her village.  A few charities would have received a few less $$$

 

Gov't would have received less taxes, to help those that need help.  A few would not have been employed by myself, who earned and spent, providing more jobs down the line.

 

Starting to get the butterfly effect ... ????

 

People will often ask what if so and so had been aborted?  We would never have benefited from his/her contributions/goodness, etc. etc.  I would retort by saying what if Hitler had been aborted?  Or Ted Bundy?  Or Jeffery Dahmer?  Or Pol Pot?  Stalin?  Millions would still be alive, no?

 

As for me, if I had been aborted, I wouldn't be here.  It's as simple as that.