Nord Stream leaks: Sabotage to blame, says EU

[Scott]

The EU has said leaks in two major gas pipelines from Russia to Europe were caused by sabotage - but stopped short of directly accusing Russia.

European Commission head Ursula von der Leyen said deliberate disruption would meet the "strongest possible response".

The EU has previously accused Russia of using gas supplies as a weapon against the West over its support for Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63057966

 

[kwonitoy]

Safe to assume sabotage,

But the kicker is who? Lots of finger pointing going on now.

I worked on NordSteam 2 before it got sanctioned, the pipe is 48" diameter with wall thickness of 25mm and 4-6 inches of concrete coating.

Even when doing controlled burst testing on land it takes quite a charge to set up a catastrophic failure

 

So now you've got several hundred kms of pipeline that is equalizing to ambient pressure and will fill with seawater. 

How to wreck several billion dollars worth of infrastructure.

[Credo]

38 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

Safe to assume sabotage,

But the kicker is who? Lots of finger pointing going on now.

I worked on NordSteam 2 before it got sanctioned, the pipe is 48" diameter with wall thickness of 25mm and 4-6 inches of concrete coating.

Even when doing controlled burst testing on land it takes quite a charge to set up a catastrophic failure

 

So now you've got several hundred kms of pipeline that is equalizing to ambient pressure and will fill with seawater. 

How to wreck several billion dollars worth of infrastructure.

Thanks for the info.  You will likely have work on this eventually when they release a 'patch' for it!!

 

[moskito]

We all know it was Putin, riding his big white pet shark to the pipeline and destroyed it with a knife! 
.
Rumors in Europe are different. Many ppl say it was Seals of a US fleet  association around the USS Kearsarge with around 4000 Soldiers on Board.
Biden said: we will bring Nordstream 2 to STOP
.
2. Questions - When Russia wanted to sabotage the Pipeline, why not just close it on shore?
1. CUI BONO?? 

.

thats ALWAYS the most important question btw

 

[farmerjo]

3 hours ago, kwonitoy said:

Safe to assume sabotage,

But the kicker is who? Lots of finger pointing going on now.

I worked on NordSteam 2 before it got sanctioned, the pipe is 48" diameter with wall thickness of 25mm and 4-6 inches of concrete coating.

Even when doing controlled burst testing on land it takes quite a charge to set up a catastrophic failure

 

So now you've got several hundred kms of pipeline that is equalizing to ambient pressure and will fill with seawater. 

How to wreck several billion dollars worth of infrastructure.

How would you move a stuck pig in a gas pipe line.

[Bkk Brian]

Not like there weren't warnings about this.

 

US warned European allies this summer that Nord Stream pipelines could be attacked

The US warned several European allies over the summer, including Germany, that the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines could face threats and even be attacked, according to two people familiar with the intelligence and the warnings.

 

Norway regulator warns on risk of 'deliberate attacks' after drones seen near oil and gas fields

In a statement, the PSA said oil and gas operators had "recently given warnings/notifications of a number of observations concerning unidentified drones/aircraft close to offshore installations" and urged "increased vigilance by all operators and vessel owners," underlining the duty to report any further sightings.

 

Russia probably bombed Nord Stream pipeline with underwater drone, says defence source

A suspected Russian sabotage attack on the Nord Stream gas pipelines was “probably premeditated and planned for” using an explosive device dropped into the sea weeks before it was detonated, according to a British defence source.

The European Union and Nato have described the large blasts in the Baltic Sea as a “deliberate act” of sabotage, with Russia labelled by Poland and Ukraine as the culprit, even as investigations continue.

[kwonitoy]

 

 

 

15 hours ago, farmerjo said:

How would you move a stuck pig in a gas pipe line.

After construction a cleaning pig is run through the pipeline, these are run at about 30 psi of air, if it should get stuck you just depressurize and put air on the other side to push it back to it's launcher

 

During construction on the pipelay ship a cable is pulling a sizing plate inside the pipe that's several hundred meters behind the ship, if there is a buckle as it's called the ship can then start backing up cutting off the pipes its just welded to bring up the damaged section and replace it

 

After the construction process a caliper or sizing pig through the pipeline prior to hydro testing.

This ensures that there are no dents/buckles or size deformations.

The client is paying for 48" of usable pipe and that what is they get, any pipe out of tolerances is up to the construction company to remedy.

After construction when the pipeline is in service an electronic or "smart" pig is run through the pipe after several years of use to check and monitor things like coating continuity and pipe wall loss. Nordstream isn't old enough to require this yet though. These don't get stuck, the pipe is of the correct size.

 

I've been reading on various websites about how a pig could have explosives on it to damage the pipe.

 

To do this you have to have a flow of gas through the pipe, Nordstream wasn't in use so no gas flow and no way to move a pig

Edited September 29, 2022 by kwonitoy

[kwonitoy]

18 hours ago, Credo said:

Thanks for the info.  You will likely have work on this eventually when they release a 'patch' for it!!

 

Not me, I'm retired now

[placeholder]

15 hours ago, kwonitoy said:

 

 

 

After construction a cleaning pig is run through the pipeline, these are run at about 30 psi of air, if it should get stuck you just depressurize and put air on the other side to push it back to it's launcher

 

During construction on the pipelay ship a cable is pulling a sizing plate inside the pipe that's several hundred meters behind the ship, if there is a buckle as it's called the ship can then start backing up cutting off the pipes its just welded to bring up the damaged section and replace it

 

After the construction process a caliper or sizing pig through the pipeline prior to hydro testing.

This ensures that there are no dents/buckles or size deformations.

The client is paying for 48" of usable pipe and that what is they get, any pipe out of tolerances is up to the construction company to remedy.

After construction when the pipeline is in service an electronic or "smart" pig is run through the pipe after several years of use to check and monitor things like coating continuity and pipe wall loss. Nordstream isn't old enough to require this yet though. These don't get stuck, the pipe is of the correct size.

 

I've been reading on various websites about how a pig could have explosives on it to damage the pipe.

 

To do this you have to have a flow of gas through the pipe, Nordstream wasn't in use so no gas flow and no way to move a pig

Fascinating post. Thanks.

[Bkk Brian]

Interesting......................but no info so we're still in the dark

 

News: Sweden has called off a „Joint Investigation Team“ with Germany and Denmark into the attacks on the Nordstream pipelines, referring to information too highly classified to share.

 

Above is a verified tweet that leads to the German article by Spiegel which can be Google translated

 

 

[Phoenix Rising]

On 9/29/2022 at 9:03 AM, moskito said:

Rumors in Europe are different. Many ppl say it was Seals of a US fleet......

Really?? Many people? First I hear of it.

But well done supporting Putin in your own little way!????

[Gweiloman]

If the information uncovered by Sweden (and others) pointed to Russia’s involvement, then I’m sure the information would have been shared worldwide. 
 

Fact that Sweden said it’s too confidential to be shared can only point to US involvement. No two ways about it and confirms what many already believe.

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

If the information uncovered by Sweden (and others) pointed to Russia’s involvement, then I’m sure the information would have been shared worldwide. 
 

Fact that Sweden said it’s too confidential to be shared can only point to US involvement. No two ways about it and confirms what many already believe.

Nice example of human thought. Information that can be explained in many ways supposedly points to US involvement, which means no 2 ways about it and confirms a thought process.

[candide]

3 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

If the information uncovered by Sweden (and others) pointed to Russia’s involvement, then I’m sure the information would have been shared worldwide. 
 

Fact that Sweden said it’s too confidential to be shared can only point to US involvement. No two ways about it and confirms what many already believe.

There may be plenty of reasons other than your conspiracy theory, I.e. they don't want to disclose a source, they don't want to disclose how they are able to investigate, etc....

[rabas]

38 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

If the information uncovered by Sweden (and others) pointed to Russia’s involvement, then I’m sure the information would have been shared worldwide. 
 

Fact that Sweden said it’s too confidential to be shared can only point to US involvement. No two ways about it and confirms what many already believe.

Not logical at all.

This is wartime, spy versus spy, and likely involves very high technology. The last thing Sweden or NATO wants is to tell Russia what they found and especially how they found it. That would teach Russia how to not get caught next time.

 

Sweden said it would not share findings with Germany who has leaky ties to Russia. They did not say they would not share with the US. US technology may well have been used in the analysis.

[Gweiloman]

16 minutes ago, rabas said:

Not logical at all.

This is wartime, spy versus spy, and likely involves very high technology. The last thing Sweden or NATO wants is to tell Russia what they found and especially how they found it. That would teach Russia how to not get caught next time.

 

Sweden said it would not share findings with Germany who has leaky ties to Russia. They did not say they would not share with the US. US technology may well have been used in the analysis.

So, according to your reasoning, they will not disclose their conclusion (assuming they determined that Russia bombed their own pipeline) to prevent Russia covering their tracks, in case it decides to bomb another pipeline? How does that prevent Russia from bombing, say, the Turkstream?

[Gweiloman]

59 minutes ago, candide said:

There may be plenty of reasons other than your conspiracy theory, I.e. they don't want to disclose a source, they don't want to disclose how they are able to investigate, etc....

Very true. But why won’t they tell the world who did it? Isn’t that important for the world to know?

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Nice example of human thought. Information that can be explained in many ways supposedly points to US involvement, which means no 2 ways about it and confirms a thought process.

Maybe not US involvement but another European country? 

[Bkk Brian]

Interesting, the Russian's apparently have form on undersea cable cutting.

 

Mysterious Atlantic cable cuts linked to Russian fishing vessels

https://euobserver.com/nordics/156342

[stevenl]

9 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Maybe not US involvement but another European country? 

Speculation that leads to nothing but flawed reasoning.

[Gweiloman]

58 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Speculation that leads to nothing but flawed reasoning.

The fact that the investigators are not releasing their findings confirms what the world already knows. I predicted something similar to this in an earlier post.

[Phoenix Rising]

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

The fact that the investigators are not releasing their findings confirms what the world already knows. I predicted something similar to this in an earlier post.

".....what the world already knows."

 

I bow my head in admiration to the fact that you speak for the world! But seriously, the world you speak for is the world filled with Putin's useful.......you know the word I would use if it was allowed.

[candide]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

As I mentioned in a previous post, Gazprom cannot cut supply without having to pay contractual penalties  according to international law. That's why they can only do it in case of "force majeure". Officially, there is no conflict, so war cannot be evoked as force majeure. It can only be a technical problem (as previously), a refusal to pay with Rubles (Finland), or an "accident" (this case).

 

It is possible that Russia could make a law allowing Gazprom to cut supply. However  at a time Russia is looking for new customers, who would contract with Russia knowing that it may just cut supply in case of disagreement?

Edited October 27, 2022 by Scott

[Gweiloman]

3 minutes ago, candide said:

As I mentioned in a previous post, Gazprom cannot cut supply without having to pay contractual penalties  according to international law. That's why they can only do it in case of "force majeure". Officially, there is no conflict, so war cannot be evoked as force majeure. It can only be a technical problem (as previously), a refusal to pay with Rubles (Finland), or an "accident" (this case).

 

It is possible that Russia could make a law allowing Gazprom to cut supply. However  at a time Russia is looking for new customers, who would contract with Russia knowing that it may just cut supply in case of disagreement?

Putting aside legal matters of compensation etc, why is Sweden not releasing their findings? If they have proof of Russia’s involvement, then this would strengthen any legal case that they might have. 
 

Any unbiased observer would reasonably conclude that the national security concerns are because the findings are not in the west’s favour.

[candide]

5 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Putting aside legal matters of compensation etc, why is Sweden not releasing their findings? If they have proof of Russia’s involvement, then this would strengthen any legal case that they might have. 
 

Any unbiased observer would reasonably conclude that the national security concerns are because the findings are not in the west’s favour.

As far as I know, they did not claim they had proof of who did it.

 

On top of it, if it would result in a legal case, as you mention, it may not be wise (or even legal according to Swedish law) to disclose information before the trial.

[CharlieH]

Reported post and response to it removed.

[internationalism]

yesterday sweden confirmed sabotage after finding traces of explosives.

Having those traces they will have chance to figure out where that explosive was made.

https://english.almanar.com.lb/1732733

 

Russia was barred from the scene to collect traces or participate in an investigation in any other way, but conducted their own monthly investigation and blame the UK. Brits deny.

 

Still, there is Biden statement from 7th February, yet before war started:

"Nord Stream 2 pipeline from Russia  to Germany will not go forward if Russia invades Ukraine…then there will be no longer Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it…I promise you we will be able to do that."

 

[Bkk Brian]

33 minutes ago, internationalism said:

yesterday sweden confirmed sabotage after finding traces of explosives.

Having those traces they will have chance to figure out where that explosive was made.

https://english.almanar.com.lb/1732733

 

Russia was barred from the scene to collect traces or participate in an investigation in any other way, but conducted their own monthly investigation and blame the UK. Brits deny.

 

Still, there is Biden statement from 7th February, yet before war started:

"Nord Stream 2 pipeline from Russia  to Germany will not go forward if Russia invades Ukraine…then there will be no longer Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it…I promise you we will be able to do that."

 

On 22nd Feb Germany froze Nordstream 2. Thanks to Biden. Russia accusing the UK should provide evidence first. Thats why we are waiting for Sweden. Ie, evidence not baseless accusations

[internationalism]

That is clear threat to existence of nord stream. 

"there will be no longer Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it…I promise you we will be able to do that."

That is not declaration from german chancellor to close those pipes. Temporarily or permanently.

 

As Sweden stated they are not going to disclose their details (as discussed above already), now similarly russia is not that obliged to disclose details of their investigation.

Russia called british embassador about those blasts. So it is not trivial for them, they claim they have solid proof, and they done so after over a month investigation. They did not do so in haste, on impuls - as Polish foreign ministry calling russian ambassador for a night time visit just hours after missile blast a few days ago.

 

Those articles point to UK connection.

 Liz Truss personal phone was hacked by russia. That lasted for all summer. She changed her phone just 1 day before becoming the PM.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11368619/Liz-Trusss-personal-phone-hacked-Putins-spies-secret-details-negotiations.html

 

also some details here https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11377157/Russia-claims-Britain-ordinated-Nord-Stream-explosions.html

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by internationalism

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, internationalism said:

That is clear threat to existence of nord stream. 

"there will be no longer Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it…I promise you we will be able to do that."

That is not declaration from german chancellor to close those pipes. Temporarily or permanently.

 

As Sweden stated they are not going to disclose their details (as discussed above already), now similarly russia is not that obliged to disclose details of their investigation.

Russia called british embassador about those blasts. So it is not trivial for them, they claim they have solid proof, and they done so after over a month investigation. They did not do so in haste, on impuls - as Polish foreign ministry calling russian ambassador for a night time visit just hours after missile blast a few days ago.

 

Those articles point to UK connection.

 Liz Truss personal phone was hacked by russia. That lasted for all summer. She changed her phone just 1 day before becoming the PM.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11368619/Liz-Trusss-personal-phone-hacked-Putins-spies-secret-details-negotiations.html

 

also some details here https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11377157/Russia-claims-Britain-ordinated-Nord-Stream-explosions.html

 

Do you understand that you are crediting the Russian government with committing truthfulness? Right through Feb 23 they denied that they were going to invade Ukraine. Then, when they invaded Ukraine they claimed it was for the purpose of denazification. This is a country where calling the invasion of Ukraine a war can get you 15 years in prison. Why would anybody believe what Russia says?