New Political Party Ready To Launch

[hammered]

It may be that getting a case in a court on the 111 politcal participation gives a nice bit of leverage and a potential fall back to the authorites. If things go as planned and the Dem-CT alliance are supported by the motherland or whatever group and form a nice coalition then the case could fall. If the motherland people start thinking of lining up with PPP then the case gives leverage. If PPP win an overall majority then I guess the case will find the 111 will have gone too far and a new election may be needed. Or maybe just mention of this possibility is enough, but certainly nothing is said in politics without a reason that is usually not the obvious one.

[somtaamgaiyang]

Generally nominee issue is covered FBA, in Thaksin's case the rules are different - he was a Prime Minister and was subject to anti-corruption rules. He was prohibited from using ANY kind of nominee.

As for proving it - AEC thinks it's got sufficient proof. Dividends from WinMark were ultimately paid to Thaksin's account.

SEC also should have its own rules on who or what can be considered a nominee. Concealing shareholding is a criminal offence. That's what the arrest warrants have been issued for - hiding SC Asset shares.

I am coming from the point of view that the structure had been there for years and no one had every bothered or been able to find it. Of course the law is different, I am simply saying that what is going on now is that if someone is delceared a nominee it is on the basis of what? A telephone conversation? A card saying "I hereby declare that I am the nominee of ........"

This ability to declare a nominee is completely subjective. If I am sitting in Parliament and my father owns a massive Thai company I am open to the accusation that I am his nominee. Thai politics is full of vested interest, therefore they can all be accused of being a nominee of somesort. This idea of arbitrarily bannning MPs for nominee status could strangle the parliament.

[Plus]

I am coming from the point of view that the structure had been there for years and no one had every bothered or been able to find it.

That's the general idea - to conceal your real assets. So it worked for a while, especially while Thaksin was in charge of all investigative organs (through political nominees).

Of course the law is different, I am simply saying that what is going on now is that if someone is delceared a nominee it is on the basis of what? A telephone conversation? A card saying "I hereby declare that I am the nominee of ........"

On the basis of AEC and DSI investigations. Then the cases will go to courts.

Thai politics is full of vested interest, therefore they can all be accused of being a nominee of somesort. This idea of arbitrarily bannning MPs for nominee status could strangle the parliament.

Why is it "arbitrarily"? They've spend many many months trying to identify the culprits.

Maybe you are confusing being a nominee and using a nominee.

Thaksin used nominees to hide money. PPP are in danger of being called political nominees of Thaksin and other banned TRT executives. I have no idea how EC is going to prove it, but if Samak continues telling the media that he is not ashamed to be a nominee, it won't be very difficult.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Plus

[somtaamgaiyang]

I am coming from the point of view that the structure had been there for years and no one had every bothered or been able to find it.

That's the general idea - to conceal your real assets. So it worked for a while, especially while Thaksin was in charge of all investigative organs (through political nominees).

Of course the law is different, I am simply saying that what is going on now is that if someone is delceared a nominee it is on the basis of what? A telephone conversation? A card saying "I hereby declare that I am the nominee of ........"

On the basis of AEC and DSI investigations. Then the cases will go to courts.

Thai politics is full of vested interest, therefore they can all be accused of being a nominee of somesort. This idea of arbitrarily bannning MPs for nominee status could strangle the parliament.

Why is it "arbitrarily"? They've spend many many months trying to identify the culprits.

Maybe you are confusing being a nominee and using a nominee.

Thaksin used nominees to hide money. PPP are in danger of being called political nominees of Thaksin and other banned TRT executives. I have no idea how EC is going to prove it, but if Samak continues telling the media that he is not ashamed to be a nominee, it won't be very difficult.

These people are going to be accused of being nominees which is going to be virtually impossible to ever prove other than someone pointing a finger and declaring that "you there, I hereby declare you a nominee". What kind of democracy is this leading to?

A very legitimate answer would be "No I'm not".

"Yes you are".

"No I am not".

"Yes you are".

"Well prove it then".

hel_l they can't even prove conclusively that votes are bought in Thailand.

Can't you see the issue here? If someone wants to start a political party or if the populous votes for a candidate how on earth can they stop him sitting in Parliament because he is declared a nominee. On what provable basis?

"But what about him over there, he's a nominee too"

"No he isn't"

"Yes he is"

"Well prove he isn't"

Samak is an idiot but we all knew that before. I do remember a story concerning the head of the army who had to delcare "I was only joking" quite recently. How are they ever going to prove that someone is a nominee in a parliament?

That would be 100 times more legally complicated than proving Thaksins case and that has taken best part of a year to find anything and those transactions were performed on a suppsedly transparent stock market in shares belonging to a public company.

[Plus]

I don't know how they are going to prove that Samak is Thaksin's nominee and ban PPP from running.

Meechai warned them about it, perhaps there is something in the new constituion and organic laws that can help. Most probably not.

[hammered]

I don't know how they are going to prove that Samak is Thaksin's nominee and ban PPP from running.

Meechai warned them about it, perhaps there is something in the new constituion and organic laws that can help. Most probably not.

Well Samak did publically state he was proud to be Thaksins nominee. That doesnt however mean he has broken some law. In fact he has to say that to get a bunch of votes. If they wanted Samak out it would probably by easy to stick him in jail for a day for some offence.

Persoanlly I think they want the PPP to run. Obviously they want them to lose but it will be a coup success if PPP is defeated. They may also prefer to have a lunatic like Samak at the head than someone more savvy.

[Plus]

True, they get more satisfaction from beating Samak at the polls than banning his party.

However, if the coup was about ensuring justice and not personal satisfaction, PPP shouldn't be allowed to run as a nominee party in the first place.

It makes a mockery out of court ruling that banned 111 execs and if EC doesn't do anything about it, what kind of precedent does it set? That they talk about justuce only when they lose?

[Old Man River]

I don't know how they are going to prove that Samak is Thaksin's nominee and ban PPP from running.

Meechai warned them about it, perhaps there is something in the new constituion and organic laws that can help. Most probably not.

Well Samak did publically state he was proud to be Thaksins nominee. That doesnt however mean he has broken some law. In fact he has to say that to get a bunch of votes. If they wanted Samak out it would probably by easy to stick him in jail for a day for some offence.

Persoanlly I think they want the PPP to run. Obviously they want them to lose but it will be a coup success if PPP is defeated. They may also prefer to have a lunatic like Samak at the head than someone more savvy.

If the government is successful in eliminating any group from publicly reporting on the election, then they can control how the vote goes. Their biggest blockage to controlling the election is not the EU, as this was a non starter from the beginning, but rather P-Net. P-Net (Poll Watch) has over 4000 Thai volunteers who report exactly what they see. P-Net did not gain any friends in the EC or junta with their report on the military's involvement in the last constitutional referendum. These are the same people who, in April 2006, supplied the information that ultimately led to the April 2006 election annulment. What a difference 1 1/2 years makes.

The EC is now trying to dump Poll Watch from the next election by accusing them of not accounting for funds they received from the EC over the past 5 years that the EC had allocated. The key word here is allocated, as Poll Watch didn't receive any money to account for. Poll Watch is now threatening lawsuits (see letter to the Editor in today's The Nation).

One way or another, I am confident that the PPP will not be allowed to win a majority.

[somtaamgaiyang]

I don't know how they are going to prove that Samak is Thaksin's nominee and ban PPP from running.

Meechai warned them about it, perhaps there is something in the new constituion and organic laws that can help. Most probably not.

Well Samak did publically state he was proud to be Thaksins nominee. That doesnt however mean he has broken some law. In fact he has to say that to get a bunch of votes. If they wanted Samak out it would probably by easy to stick him in jail for a day for some offence.

Persoanlly I think they want the PPP to run. Obviously they want them to lose but it will be a coup success if PPP is defeated. They may also prefer to have a lunatic like Samak at the head than someone more savvy.

If the government is successful in eliminating any group from publicly reporting on the election, then they can control how the vote goes. Their biggest blockage to controlling the election is not the EU, as this was a non starter from the beginning, but rather P-Net. P-Net (Poll Watch) has over 4000 Thai volunteers who report exactly what they see. P-Net did not gain any friends in the EC or junta with their report on the military's involvement in the last constitutional referendum. These are the same people who, in April 2006, supplied the information that ultimately led to the April 2006 election annulment. What a difference 1 1/2 years makes.

The EC is now trying to dump Poll Watch from the next election by accusing them of not accounting for funds they received from the EC over the past 5 years that the EC had allocated. The key word here is allocated, as Poll Watch didn't receive any money to account for. Poll Watch is now threatening lawsuits (see letter to the Editor in today's The Nation).

One way or another, I am confident that the PPP will not be allowed to win a majority.

One way or another I would be happy if we could get back to some semblance of something sort of approaching, if it didn't offend the powers that be too much, a rickety sort of Thai style election, where the people march off with their 200 baht in their hands, get a blue fingerprint and vote for anyone on the list without worrying that after the event someone in Bangkok will throw a hissy fit about the result about who wins. The rules already prevent about 85% of the Thai population from becoming an MP if that wasn't elitist enough already.

The constitution has changed, a party and over a hundred people have been banned, we have had a coup. How much more management of the electoral process do these people need to let the people have their say so that the result comes out the way that THEY WANT IT. They have had a year to rig this exactly the way they want it, and they still can't get it right. It would probably be better if they just came out and said they don't want elections at all, all they do is cause problems and the poor people don't like voting for people from old millionaires families from Bangkok.

Enough already, just get on with it.

[hammered]

I don't know how they are going to prove that Samak is Thaksin's nominee and ban PPP from running.

Meechai warned them about it, perhaps there is something in the new constituion and organic laws that can help. Most probably not.

Well Samak did publically state he was proud to be Thaksins nominee. That doesnt however mean he has broken some law. In fact he has to say that to get a bunch of votes. If they wanted Samak out it would probably by easy to stick him in jail for a day for some offence.

Persoanlly I think they want the PPP to run. Obviously they want them to lose but it will be a coup success if PPP is defeated. They may also prefer to have a lunatic like Samak at the head than someone more savvy.

If the government is successful in eliminating any group from publicly reporting on the election, then they can control how the vote goes. Their biggest blockage to controlling the election is not the EU, as this was a non starter from the beginning, but rather P-Net. P-Net (Poll Watch) has over 4000 Thai volunteers who report exactly what they see. P-Net did not gain any friends in the EC or junta with their report on the military's involvement in the last constitutional referendum. These are the same people who, in April 2006, supplied the information that ultimately led to the April 2006 election annulment. What a difference 1 1/2 years makes.

The EC is now trying to dump Poll Watch from the next election by accusing them of not accounting for funds they received from the EC over the past 5 years that the EC had allocated. The key word here is allocated, as Poll Watch didn't receive any money to account for. Poll Watch is now threatening lawsuits (see letter to the Editor in today's The Nation).

One way or another, I am confident that the PPP will not be allowed to win a majority.

It is going to be a dirty election.

[John K]

Actually I think the PPP is already doomed. With counter comments coming from the government in warnings that pointed and direct, they may have already lit the funeral fire. I don’t recall anything that direct unless I have overlooked something.

[nothingleftbutfaith]

ASIA HAND

Thailand's rocky road ahead

By Shawn W Crispin

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/II13Ae01.html

A brilliant analysis of the current Thai political situation.

[Plus]

..some semblance of ... Thai style election, where the people march off with their 200 baht in their hands, get a blue fingerprint and vote for anyone on the list...

... so that the result comes out the way that THEY WANT IT.

It doesn't make sense. It's either election the way they want it or the way the person who gave them 200 baht wants.

Or do you propose to legitimise vote buying so it's a level playing field for everyone and no one gets busted for paying 30 mil to a prospective MP to switch sides from old millionaire families to new billionair families.

[sriracha john]

ASIA HAND

Thailand's rocky road ahead

By Shawn W Crispin

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/II13Ae01.html

A brilliant analysis of the current Thai political situation.

Aptly summed up by the writer himself:

"All of this, of course, is semi-educated guesswork."

[sriracha john]

NLA Speaker Warns Banned MPs Over Use of Proxy Parties

National Legislative Assembly speaker Meechai Ruchuphan yesterday cautioned banned party executives that they are not permitted to use nominees for any political movement, where proxy parties would face disbandment by the Election Commission (EC).

Meechai iterated that the 111 banned Thai Rak Thai (TRT) Party executives were prohibited to establish or manage another political party for a period five years, adding that the EC would disband and deny registrations of any new party found as nominee of the banned executives.

However, he added that they could serve as advisors to political parties, but may not meddle with the party’s affairs.

His warning followed reports that certain TRT breakaway factions planned to register two new parties to contest in the upcoming general election.

The assembly speaker asserted that movements by proxy parties would be handled by the EC chairman, where he has absolute authority to rule and penalize them.

NLA member Prasong Soonsiri on the other hand explained the purpose behind the draft provisions of three organic laws on elections, claiming that they were written to enforce guilty verdicts on electoral fraud, mainly to prevent banned executives from gaining their powers through using nominees to run in elections.

Prasong ruled that any political party or individual found to serve as proxies of banned executive would be removed permanently from the electoral process.

Currently serving as the committee chairman reviewing the draft provisions of the three organic laws, Prasong said the NLA expected to start its final two readings on the three bills on September 21.

- Thailand Outlook

[hammered]

ASIA HAND

Thailand's rocky road ahead

By Shawn W Crispin

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/II13Ae01.html

A brilliant analysis of the current Thai political situation.

Yes another good one from Shawn

[sriracha john]

Being a proxy has consequences....

Samak urged to tone it down

Dissension in the ranks of People's Power

People's Power party (PPP) boss Samak Sundaravej has fired his first salvo at the Assets Scrutiny Committee (ASC), but insiders warn it's his own party that could suffer the casualties. Samak was grandstanding once again when he vowed to exonerate the 111 former TRT executive members who were banned for five years and abolish the ASC if he became prime minister after the general election. Samak also said shortly after taking the PPP's helm that he did not mind working as the nominee of ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra. He was showered with praise by his own supporters for taking such a clear stand to undo "injustices" but within the PPP, core leaders are feeling the pinch as a result of Samak's remarks. They reckon his closed-fist approach will only chisel away at the party's competitiveness. Leading PPP figures recently met party secretary-general Surapong Suebwonglee and Yaowapa Wongsawat, a younger sister of the former PM, for a talk about the party's policy platform. They disagreed with Samak's intention to absolve the former TRT leadership and felt his hostile attitude towards the ASC, which is investigating corruption scandals involving Thaksin and some of his former cabinet members, could blow up in the party's face.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/13Sep2007_news99.php

[John K]

Samak also said shortly after taking the PPP's helm that he did not mind working as the nominee of ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra = and that leads to followed quickly by a phone call from Thaksin that sounds like

[Mid]

Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana to be formed

(BangkokPost.com) – Core leader of the Reconciliation group and former leader of the Chart Pattana party Suwat Liptapallop emerged from a meeting with Somkid Jatusripitak and Pradit Pattaraprasit, key leaders of the Ruam Jai Thai group with good news this afternoon.

Soon after the meeting, which took place at Mr Suwat’s house, key representatives of the groups announced their decision to form the Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana group.

snip

another hat in the ring

[Old Man River]

Samak urged to tone it down

Dissension in the ranks of People's Power

The loose cannon strikes again.

[sriracha john]

Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana to be formed

(BangkokPost.com) – Core leader of the Reconciliation group and former leader of the Chart Pattana party Suwat Liptapallop emerged from a meeting with Somkid Jatusripitak and Pradit Pattaraprasit, key leaders of the Ruam Jai Thai group with good news this afternoon.

Soon after the meeting, which took place at Mr Suwat’s house, key representatives of the groups announced their decision to form the Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana group.

snip

another hat in the ring

Suwat (TRT Banned #22) AKA Hansel joins hands with Somkid (TRT Banned #16) AKA Gretel as they skip merrily along the pathway; oblivious of the warnings issued...

Edited September 13, 2007 by sriracha john

[Tony Clifton]

I like this one.

PPP vows to work with all groups, parties

Secretary-general of the People's Power party (PPP) Surapong Suebwonglee has clarified his stance on Sanoh Thienthong’s decision to merge with core leaders of the Puea Pandin party, insisting that he is not out to become anyone’s political enemy.

“It is his personal decision and I have said so from the start that I am not out to seek political enemies,” Dr Surapong said. “PPP will cooperate with every political group and party, including the Democrat party, if we share the same policy ideals.”

Dr Surapong also denied claims of annulling all investigations on former premier Thaksin Shinawatra should the PPP win the elections to become the ruling party.

“I never said anything of the sort. I can only stress that everything needs to be done according to the rules of law. What I can promise, is that I will introduce a law which will pardon the 111 former Thai Rak Thai members suspended from politics for 5 years, because I don’t beceive they were treated fairly,” he said.

Bangkok Post

[sriracha john]

Newin Chidchob, who is number #6 on the list of 111 Thai Rak Thai executives who were banned from politics for five years for engaging in electoral fraud

Looks like another "big" person in the People Power Party, other than Samak, is heading for criminal investigation....

Report implicates Newin in encroachment

A police special task force headed by acting police chief Pol Gen Seripisuth Temiyavej has filed a report accusing key member of the People's Power party Newin Chidchob (TRT Banned #6) of land encroachment. Parinya Jansuriya, commander of the Royal Thai Police Office corruption suppression division, said the task force had presented its investigation report into the alleged encroachment to his division. It claims Mr Newin and seven other people had colluded in the encroachment of land in Buri Ram. The division has now set up a probe team to examine the case and if it found there was substance to the allegation, it would press charges.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Sep2007_news08.php

[Ricardo]

Samak also said shortly after taking the PPP's helm that he did not mind working as the nominee of ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra = and that leads to followed quickly by a phone call from Thaksin that sounds like

I seem to recall that former appointed-caretaker-PM Thaksin has claimed, on many occasions, to have totally quit Thai politics.

So why would he need a nominee in this new completely-different-from-corrupt-TRT party ?

Or could he have acquired, whilst living in London, a taste for 'porky-pies' ? (Cockney rhymning-slang for lies).

Edited September 14, 2007 by Ricardo

[massein]

Can anyone give a rough translation of what the various policicals name wout be in english, for as best as i can translate i think the ruam jai thai mean , justcuriouss thai hearts together. just curious

New party ready to launch

Thamma Thippatai unites well-known figures to form Ruam Jai Thai

The Thamma Thippatai group led by Somkid Jatusripitak * on the right in the first photo above with an unknown bystander * will today announce its plan to form a new political party, to be called Ruam Jai Thai (Thai Unity).

Pimol Sriwikorn, co-founder of the group, yesterday told The Nation the Thamma Thippatai would discuss the organisation of the new party and analyse the current political situation.

"It will be just a normal meeting of our group since we formed the Thamma Thippatai. We are not naming the new party yet because of the junta's announcement No. 15, which has banned political party-related activities and the registration of new parties," he said.

Pimol said he, along with Suranan Vejjajiva * as shown in the second photo he was the Former TRT Party Spokesman & Executive Director Thai Rak Thai Party and Former Thaksin Cabinet Minister * and Somkid, would only be "advisers" to the new party because they are both banned from politics.

* for five years for engaging in electoral fraud *

Group member Surachai Danaitangtrakoon said that after Somkid was banned from politics following the dissolution of the Thai Rak Thai Party, the group has continued its activities under the Thamma Thippatai.

The group has brought together "well-known people" from various fields to form a political party, he said.

According to Surachai, former Bangkok governor Bhichit Rattakul, former Mahachon Party leader Anek Laothammatas, former Democrat Party secretary-general Pradit Pattaraprasit, Chaianan Samudavanija, a staunch critic of former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, and economics lecturer Somjai Phagaphasvivat were the new party executives.

A source said Chaianan had named the party Ruam Jai Thai, but the Matchima group led by Somsak Thepsuthin, and Somkid, had conflicting ideas.

"Somkid wants the party to belong to young politicians and doesn't want the military involved, unlike the Matchima, which seems happy to accept the conditions of the military."

- The Nation

[massein]

Is it true that elected party members under the previous admin receive a government salary and a party salary ?

[somtaamgaiyang]

..some semblance of ... Thai style election, where the people march off with their 200 baht in their hands, get a blue fingerprint and vote for anyone on the list...

... so that the result comes out the way that THEY WANT IT.

It doesn't make sense. It's either election the way they want it or the way the person who gave them 200 baht wants.

Or do you propose to legitimise vote buying so it's a level playing field for everyone and no one gets busted for paying 30 mil to a prospective MP to switch sides from old millionaire families to new billionair families.

I am not saying that vote buying is good, but then when is it ever going to stop. In fact, I doubt whether they actually have to give out 200 baht to get the people in Isaan to vote against the anointed PM's party. They are setting up this election with only one winner, but are fiddling around so much because they are so desperate and I mean desperate to make sure of the outcome. The recent referendum gives a very clear statement of how a huge amount of people feel, and over 10mn people didn't vote. A huge amount of people in Isaan and the north are not going to vote the way that the CNS wants them to.

This election is going to be no less farcical and corrupt than any other before it, so for the sake of the country, economy, international standing I wish they would just get on with it. I then hope that the government isn't crippled by "he's should be banned, no he should be banned" finger pointing which will only serve to create a legislative log jam.

I am starting to doubt very much whether it will happen on December 23, and then lets see the discussions about the Thai economy going into freefall.

[sriracha john]

Is it true that elected party members under the previous admin receive a government salary and a party salary ?

Yes.

Then there is Thaksin's money. ''He pays the MPs an extra salary each month, through his wife," Thitinan says. ''In return, he has very strong loyalty."

(Thitinan Pongsudhirak, of the Institute for Southeast Asian Studies)

- Agence France Presse / March 26, 2006

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/art...nals/?page=full

Edited September 14, 2007 by sriracha john

[massein]

Can someone give a rough english translation of the various political names.

They all seem to indecat stong nationalisim, and not a idealolgy, as far as i can

susmise

[hammered]

Being a proxy has consequences....

Samak urged to tone it down

Dissension in the ranks of People's Power

People's Power party (PPP) boss Samak Sundaravej has fired his first salvo at the Assets Scrutiny Committee (ASC), but insiders warn it's his own party that could suffer the casualties. Samak was grandstanding once again when he vowed to exonerate the 111 former TRT executive members who were banned for five years and abolish the ASC if he became prime minister after the general election. Samak also said shortly after taking the PPP's helm that he did not mind working as the nominee of ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra. He was showered with praise by his own supporters for taking such a clear stand to undo "injustices" but within the PPP, core leaders are feeling the pinch as a result of Samak's remarks. They reckon his closed-fist approach will only chisel away at the party's competitiveness. Leading PPP figures recently met party secretary-general Surapong Suebwonglee and Yaowapa Wongsawat, a younger sister of the former PM, for a talk about the party's policy platform. They disagreed with Samak's intention to absolve the former TRT leadership and felt his hostile attitude towards the ASC, which is investigating corruption scandals involving Thaksin and some of his former cabinet members, could blow up in the party's face.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/13Sep2007_news99.php

Some of the problems facing PPP are that in all likelihood they need an outright victory to assume government. Failure to get this will probably lead to a coalition excluding them. Mr. Thaksin will be spending a minor fortune if he tries to achieve this and it does look like he is right now. That howeever means he needs to shut old motor mouth up because he will need more than just most of the seats in the Isaan - there are places they wont win totally - plus lots of the North. They will need some Bangkok, Central/Eastern MPs to achieve the dream. The last thing PPP needs is nominee of T man talk and amnesty talk if they want to do well in these regions. However, they need to talk up the T-man links to overachieve in the Isaan. Quite a dilemma. As has been said nothing in terms of parties will be set in stone until the 30-day period ends. In themeantime the amount being bandied as a transfer fee has supposedly increased from 30 to 40 million in the last week. A few weeks ago the PPP were looking good with their set up and other ex-TRT groups in disarray even seemingly sucking up a bunch of other faction ex-MPs. Now with the ex-TRT groups falling into their own camps and seemingly going to go head to head with PPP the PPP position weakens vis-a-vis the other ex-groups. Still time for a lot of flux but the earlier analysis that PPP would start very strong and then have to fight to stop defections right up until election day still seems to be order of the day right now. One wonders what the transfer fee may actually rise to as deadline day approaches. One onders ifit will be the usual damp squib of the premier league deadline or this one may actually prove to spring some huge lst minute changes.