What low/medium price wine do you recommend.

[GammaGlobulin]

What is "bulk wine"?

 

Bulk wine is table wine which helps you to bulk up.

 

Gallon bottles of bulk wine, like Gallo gallon jugs, are not so easy to handle.

 

I used to sell Gallo to winoes.

 

I know the singular noun for wino.

But, I am not sure if the plural of the noun for wino might be winoes.

 

Anyone know?

 

This is not a term which is often discussed by grammarians.

 

 Give a wino an expensive gift box from Martell, and he would not know that to do with it.

 

Cheap wine not worth drinking.

 

Expensive Cognac is a pleasure, if sipped tastefully, in a snifter.

 

Otherwise, then why not LEO Beer?

 

 

[YorkshireTyke]

Thanks guys , got a good list of reds to try, how about a few whites ? Do companies like 19 Crimes do white also so I look for the same manufacturer producing white?

 

How about a Pinot Grigio?

[KannikaP]

11 hours ago, kwak250 said:

Bet that tastes like cat pizz

Far from it....not that I ever tasted cat pee.

Frozen blackberries from Makro give a very pleasant result too.

[scubascuba3]

I got bored of wine, the last year I've been drinking beer from a wine glass, makes it more special, obviously only at home...try it

[xylophone]

15 hours ago, partington said:

A perennial debate, but one which I still am sceptical about. 

 

In my view "fruit wine" is wine fermented from a mixture of grape juice and the juice of other fruits, which are mixed before fermentation starts, and not finished wine made from grapes, to which raw fruit juice is then added before bottling.

 

I think anyone with even moderately functional taste buds could tell if what they are drinking is finished grape wine that has subsequently had raw fruit juice added to it.

 

 I could be wrong, of course, but have never seen definitive evidence that convinces me that the raw fruit juice interpretation is true.

I have always agreed with that point of view although it didn't come across well in my second post – – my bad for trying to rush it.

 

Yes, I believe the fruit juice is added to the grape juice before fermentation starts so that a more "rounded" end product is produced. Some time ago I was doing a bit more research on this and did come across some notes from a producer of this stuff, and it actually stated that he added juice from "orchard fruits" to the mix before fermentation.

 

Tried to portray that in my first post, however my second post completely missed the point!!!!

 

For the record, I see no point in doing this other than to be able to produce a finished product which is cheap and/or gets around excise taxes in one country or another.

 

So far I have seen these "fruit wines" from Australia (mainly), France, Italy, South Africa and Chile.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by xylophone

[xylophone]

14 hours ago, moogradod said:

I am not a wine snob - but as well not someone drinking wine from cartons and having tasted some at the very top of the Parker list, visited Burgundy myself twice and had some fun there, so at least I can contribute just a little bit.

 

And you have obviously not yet tried

 

"Williams - Shiraz Carbernet" at a mere 399.--.

 

And this is a very very surprizingly good wine - for the price and even far beyond.

 

 

I think you mean McWilliams Shiraz Cabernet, from Australia and I have bought it for 399 baht, although it seems to have gone up in price in some other stores, and for the money it is a good buy, and it's not a fruit wine, which is good to hear.

[xylophone]

16 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Fruit wine seems to have a lower alcohol % so something must be going on

There are some fruit wines which have a lower alcohol percentage (like some Montclair in plastic "bags" for example) however many of the ones which I have seen have a "normal" alcohol percentage of around 13%, and as I have just pointed out, as has Partington, it's because the fruit juice is added to the grape juice and then fermented as one, so the sugar and yeast do their bit to produce the alcohol.

 

There was a long running thread a few years back whereby it was stated (me included) that Montclair (Siam winery) actually imported grape juice from Australia and South Africa and then added juice from a particular Thai fruit to it (began with an Ro, but can't quite remember it now) before fermenting it and selling it here.

 

PS. Got it....juice from Roselle is/was added to Montclair wine!!!!

 

More info on this link if you care to read it: –

 

https://www.wineandabout.com/business/fruit-appearing-shelves/
 

Edited November 5, 2022 by xylophone

[KannikaP]

15 hours ago, moogradod said:

I am not a wine snob - but as well not someone drinking wine from cartons and having tasted some at the very top of the Parker list, visited Burgundy myself twice and had some fun there, so at least I can contribute just a little bit.

 

And you have obviously not yet tried

 

"Williams - Shiraz Carbernet" at a mere 399.--.

 

And this is a very very surprizingly good wine - for the price and even far beyond.

 

 

Makro or Lotussss

[moogradod]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

I think you mean McWilliams Shiraz Cabernet, from Australia and I have bought it for 399 baht, although it seems to have gone up in price in some other stores, and for the money it is a good buy, and it's not a fruit wine, which is good to hear.

Yes, I mean this wine. I have even included a photo in one of my posts. In my opinion it is not only a good buy for the money but even better. Dont tell it to the producer but I would easily pay around 600.-- for it or even more. Wines with a much higher price label are not necessarily better unless you reach the 2000+ range and even then not every wine fits our taste.

Edited November 5, 2022 by moogradod

[moogradod]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

I got bored of wine, the last year I've been drinking beer from a wine glass, makes it more special, obviously only at home...try it

The glass has a much more profound influence than many think. I prefer to drink beer from a big brandy ballon. It is not only the volume of the glass above the liquid if poured in and not only the form that leads the odours to the nose. I find that the thickness of the glass has a major influence on the taste. The thinner the better I feel. Riedel / Zwiesel are famous manufacturers that produce a very wide range of glasses - unfortunately at very high prices. Haven't seen any in Thailand by the way.

[xylophone]

46 minutes ago, moogradod said:

The glass has a much more profound influence than many think. I prefer to drink beer from a big brandy ballon. It is not only the volume of the glass above the liquid if poured in and not only the form that leads the odours to the nose. I find that the thickness of the glass has a major influence on the taste. The thinner the better I feel. Riedel / Zwiesel are famous manufacturers that produce a very wide range of glasses - unfortunately at very high prices. Haven't seen any in Thailand by the way.

I'll drink to that! And I found exactly the same thing at a winetasting evening at a friends French wine importing business in Auckland, when several glasses were used for the tasting and much to my surprise one glass in particular stood out amongst the rest and it was a Riedel glass!! I would never have thought it!

 

This little snippet is interesting: –

 

According to a 2012 interview that Jameson Fink held with Georg Riedel of Riedel glasses, California winemaker Robert Mondavi met Riedel in London in 1989. Riedel had been producing wine glass sets since 1961, and his family company considers the glass a tool to balance flavor contributions in a wine, including fruitiness and acidity. This is based on three physical parameters of a glass – size, shape and opening.

Mondavi listened to Riedel, then told him he was speaking nonsense. But later that day, when tasting Fumé Blanc from different glasses, Mondavi was astounded to find that the taste differed depending on the glass. He became a lifelong friend of Riedel, and supposedly even replaced his own wine glassware after their meeting.

[LatPhrao]

20 hours ago, xylophone said:

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with some aspects of your post, because the aspect of "fruit wine" is more tightly controlled than you suggest.

 

If any fruit juice is added, and I did post something here a few years ago with regards to the amounts of fruit juice/wine which can be added, to the wine so it falls into the "fruit wine" category.

 

Not only that, on the label it has to state, "fruit wine" somewhere (although I will admit it's never prominent) so imagine that an exporter of wine wanted to send his product to Thailand and produced a label which falsely stated that it was "fruit wine". Should he be found out for this ruse, then he would be subject to huge fines and reputational damage, not to mention probably having the stock destroyed.

 

I've heard this on several occasions and there is nothing to suggest that the Thai authorities will have any bearing on what is on the label, because it will already be stated on the label from the producing country, what it is, so the producer/the producing country would be fraudulently exporting a product.

 

You may also wish to peruse the information on this link......
https://www.the-londoner.com/blog/ordering-and-buying-wine-in-thailand/

I also remember speaking to one of the hierarchy of the Wine Connection chain in Thailand when they were selling wine which was fruit wine, although not that you could see it on the label, but it was inexpensive, hence the reason it was done, to get through Thai excise duty. This wine was produced in Vietnam and the white wine had juice from passionfruit and pineapple (I think it was) whereas the red wine was mixed with juice from "black fruits" as the person said (blueberry, blackberry, plum et cetera).

 

So fruit wine is a reality.
 

With all due respect I truly wish that I could find, in your reply, information that substantiates 'fruit wine is a reality'. Unfortunately it seems a bit of dabbling in the usual vague, unsubstantiated ideas, not facts, that abound on the topic.  A professional winemaker / winery would know exactly what was in the wine going into the bottle.  If there were government requirements at the export destination they would know them precisely.  Apparently they don't exist at Thailand, never published. An eye dropper of some fruit other than grape added, as good as a tanker load.                                                                                  The marketing/sales/ label designer on the other hand - with sales motive would have the responsibility of juggling verbiage (fruit, wine, aromas or flavors of a fruit), based on available Thailand government and market info, in order to get their product past Customs and whatever alcohol beverage agency.  Wine labels at the 399 thb level can be single use, with fanciful names and bottled and shipped in quantities to meet the buyer's needs. E.g., a single wine importer distributor at Thailand.  It is possible to work with a winery for 'private label', shipping as a full pallet (56 cases - 12 bottles per case)     These terms, and many more, are used by wine tasters, wine writers to describe the aromas and flavors found in wine:   passionfruit, pineapple, black fruits, blueberry, blackberry, plum.   Put them on a wine back label...voila!  fruit wine.                                                                                                                                                                The Vietnam story I believe was a bottling facility in Vietnam that imported (unadulterated) French wine in bulk, bottled and labelled it in Vietnam to meet the Thai market requires, and took advantage of the tax break available by importing to Thailand from an Asean country.   I would not be surprised to find Thailand wine companies doing the same, bringing in wine in bulk and bottling it here.                                          Wine drinkers in Thailand can rest assured, I believe, that the cheaper "fruit wines" here do not contain anything other than the fruit known as grape.  They may or may not be to our taste, they are coming from big  wine regions, producing at high volume, from lesser quality microclimates which affects the quality.  On the other hand some good every day table wines.   Cheers

[LatPhrao]

21 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Fruit wine seems to have a lower alcohol % so something must be going on

In the case of cheaper wines you should put it down to where the wine came from, the growing region and the grape varieties. Grapes grown for high production are harvested at lower sugar content.  That translates at fermentation into lower alcohol wines. 11?% to 12.5%  Wineries bottle the wines and sell them at lower prices, like we see at 399 thb.

[Gottfrid]

Try Casilliero del Diablo for a red choice.  Around 600 - 700 a bottle

 

For the white ones, there are 3 choice below, that are definately worth trying:

Las Condes Chardonnay for Chile for about 700 - 800 baht

Chateau Le Gay Bordeaux Blanc for about 750 baht

Slent Pinotage a Shiraz for 1100 - 1200 baht. (Yes, the last one went up slightly ???? )

For me this price range is good for wines like Shiraz, Chardonnay, pinot and Bordeaux. However, I am a sucker for Cabernet Sauvignon. The good ones there I usually find in the price range of 2000 - 3500 baht.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Gottfrid

[The Fugitive]

1 hour ago, LatPhrao said:

In the case of cheaper wines you should put it down to where the wine came from, the growing region and the grape varieties. Grapes grown for high production are harvested at lower sugar content.  That translates at fermentation into lower alcohol wines. 11?% to 12.5%  Wineries bottle the wines and sell them at lower prices, like we see at 399 thb.

Thanks for the information. Most helpful!

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, LatPhrao said:

A professional winemaker / winery would know exactly what was in the wine going into the bottle.

Surely would, and that's why a few years ago I was in touch with the son of a friend of mine who was an apprentice winemaker in Australia in the Riverland region.

 

1 hour ago, LatPhrao said:

The Vietnam story I believe was a bottling facility in Vietnam that imported (unadulterated) French wine in bulk, bottled and labelled it in Vietnam to meet the Thai market requires, and took advantage of the tax break available by importing to Thailand from an Asean country.

I knew the general manager of the company and it was French grape juice which was imported and blended with various fruits before it was fermented and then brought into Thailand, and on the label it did say "fruit wine", so another of your assumptions bites the dust, because if what you are saying is true, they wouldn't need to put "fruit wine" on the label because according to you the tax break was already available to them!

 

1 hour ago, LatPhrao said:

Unfortunately it seems a bit of dabbling in the usual vague, unsubstantiated ideas, not facts, that abound on the topic.

I did post a couple of links pertaining to the actuality of fruit wine if you would care to open them and peruse.

 

1 hour ago, LatPhrao said:

Apparently they don't exist at Thailand, never published.

They do exist and I had them and published them on a previous thread a few years ago now on the other forum

 

1 hour ago, LatPhrao said:

   The marketing/sales/ label designer on the other hand - with sales motive would have the responsibility of juggling verbiage (fruit, wine, aromas or flavors of a fruit), based on available Thailand government and market info, in order to get their product past Customs and whatever alcohol beverage agency.

Such nonsense and do you really believe that the future and reputation of a winemaker/company would rest in the hands of a marketing/sales person who decided to put whatever he or she felt like on a label??.

 

Sorry to have to inform you but if this company were found to be fraudulently labelling the wine in order to get it through customs at a lower excise duty, then they would be charged with fraud and misrepresentation and the whole of the wine exported could be destroyed, and of course the reputation of the winemaker would suffer.
 

And just around this off, the Montclair wine which was all the rage here a few years ago was imported grape juice blended with a Thai fruit called Roselle, and that should be able to be found on the Internet somewhere, rather than you spouting off your nonsense.

[moogradod]

32 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

........................................

 

For the white ones, there are 3 choice below, that are definately worth trying:

Las Condes Chardonnay for Chile for about 700 - 800 baht
Chateau Le Gay Bordeaux Blanc for about 750 baht
Slent Pinotage a Shiraz for 1100 - 1200 baht. (Yes, the last one went up slightly ???? )
 

.......................................

We have found our pricewise reasonable but still good RED wine - see my recommendation above.

But to find a good white one seems to be much more difficult.

Here is what we often had in Switzerland:

 

 

Has anybody seen this wine somewhere here and where ? Or some other affordable Sancerre ? The wine was excellent. We have been to Villa and they did not have it. Have not seen it in TOPS either, nor in Foodland.

 

It would as well be interesting where the recommendations above for a white wine may be obtained.

 

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, LatPhrao said:

In the case of cheaper wines you should put it down to where the wine came from, the growing region and the grape varieties. Grapes grown for high production are harvested at lower sugar content.  That translates at fermentation into lower alcohol wines. 11?% to 12.5%  Wineries bottle the wines and sell them at lower prices, like we see at 399 thb.

So how do you reconcile the fact that many of the bottles of wine selling here for 399 baht have an alcohol content of 13.5% or thereabouts??

 

South-east Australia produces a lot of the cheaper end wine and this sells at around the 400 baht mark here, with an alcohol content of 13.5% and these grapes are grown in "high production" areas, very often assisted with a small amount of irrigation.

 

Again you are way off the mark and I will put my 50 years experience of collecting wines and touring the vineyards of France, as well as being a personal guest at several of the top château for private wine tastings, against your ramblings.
 

[xylophone]

11 minutes ago, moogradod said:

We have found our pricewise reasonable but still good RED wine - see my recommendation above.

But to find a good white one seems to be much more difficult.

Here is what we often had in Switzerland:

 

 

Has anybody seen this wine somewhere here and where ? Or some other affordable Sancerre ? The wine was excellent. We have been to Villa and they did not have it. Have not seen it in TOPS either, nor in Foodland.

 

It would as well be interesting where the recommendations above for a white wine may be obtained.

 

You could try Wine Pro or Vinum Lector (I buy from them quite often) and they will send you a wine list and arrange delivery.

 

Nice wine by the way!!

Vinum Lector Wholesale Price List September 2022.pdf

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by xylophone

[LatPhrao]

4 hours ago, xylophone said:

So how do you reconcile the fact that many of the bottles of wine selling here for 399 baht have an alcohol content of 13.5% or thereabouts??

 

South-east Australia produces a lot of the cheaper end wine and this sells at around the 400 baht mark here, with an alcohol content of 13.5% and these grapes are grown in "high production" areas, very often assisted with a small amount of irrigation.

 

Again you are way off the mark and I will put my 50 years experience of collecting wines and touring the vineyards of France, as well as being a personal guest at several of the top château for private wine tastings, against your ramblings.
 

There's nothing to say cheaper end wines, especially from hot growing regions, can't have higher alcohol levels. Certainly some due.  The OP wondered about the lower alcohol wines at the cheaper end.  I provided a knowledgeable rationale.

Again, you missed the mark. And I'm not looking for an argument with a tasting room tourist.  I won't embarrass you with my credentials.

Edited November 5, 2022 by LatPhrao
text added

[Gottfrid]

4 hours ago, moogradod said:

We have found our pricewise reasonable but still good RED wine - see my recommendation above.

But to find a good white one seems to be much more difficult.

Here is what we often had in Switzerland:

 

 

Has anybody seen this wine somewhere here and where ? Or some other affordable Sancerre ? The wine was excellent. We have been to Villa and they did not have it. Have not seen it in TOPS either, nor in Foodland.

 

It would as well be interesting where the recommendations above for a white wine may be obtained.

 

I do not actually know about the certain wine you are referring to. However, if it is Jean Max Roger Sancerre, then it is possible to find i Thailand.

There are 3 different versions and they cost between 2500 - 3000 per bottle.

[LatPhrao]

4 hours ago, xylophone said:

Surely would, and that's why a few years ago I was in touch with the son of a friend of mine who was an apprentice winemaker in Australia in the Riverland region.

 

I knew the general manager of the company and it was French grape juice which was imported and blended with various fruits before it was fermented and then brought into Thailand, and on the label it did say "fruit wine", so another of your assumptions bites the dust, because if what you are saying is true, they wouldn't need to put "fruit wine" on the label because according to you the tax break was already available to them!

 

I did post a couple of links pertaining to the actuality of fruit wine if you would care to open them and peruse.

 

They do exist and I had them and published them on a previous thread a few years ago now on the other forum

 

Such nonsense and do you really believe that the future and reputation of a winemaker/company would rest in the hands of a marketing/sales person who decided to put whatever he or she felt like on a label??.

 

Sorry to have to inform you but if this company were found to be fraudulently labelling the wine in order to get it through customs at a lower excise duty, then they would be charged with fraud and misrepresentation and the whole of the wine exported could be destroyed, and of course the reputation of the winemaker would suffer.
 

And just around this off, the Montclair wine which was all the rage here a few years ago was imported grape juice blended with a Thai fruit called Roselle, and that should be able to be found on the Internet somewhere, rather than you spouting off your nonsense.

Well noted your ignorance of winemaking, marketing, sales, exporting and importing and yet again the total absence of anything to back up your assumptions, insinuations and pronouncements.  Enjoy your wine drinking, travels and story telling.  Breaks the ice at parties. 

[xylophone]

12 hours ago, LatPhrao said:

Well noted your ignorance of winemaking, marketing, sales, exporting and importing and yet again the total absence of anything to back up your assumptions, insinuations and pronouncements.  Enjoy your wine drinking, travels and story telling.  Breaks the ice at parties. 

It seems that you cannot see the total flaw in your argument, and like to reply with putdowns of my knowledge and experience, however I was Director of Sales and Marketing for a company represented in the Dow Jones index, and I also started a multibillion-dollar investment unit where careful control over what was published vis-à-vis the investment funds was of paramount importance for ethical and legal reasons, something I had to oversee of course, so I am aware of what can and can't be said in sales and marketing literature/promotion.

 

The flaw in your argument which you cannot see is that on the one hand you are saying that there is no fruit juice in the wine which is labelled "fruit wine" yet the label states that there is, and indeed some labels state the likes of, "premium grapes blended with orchard fruits" – – but of course according to you that's a lie.

 

So again, according to you, wine producers and companies in South Africa, Chile, France, Italy and Australia to name but a few, are misrepresenting (lying about) the contents of the bottle so that excise duty/tax is lowered, thereby denying the importing country the excise duty they are due?? In effect, fraud and misrepresentation, so your argument would seem to be around supporting the lying about a product, on its label!

 

Incredible.
 

[xylophone]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:28 PM, LatPhrao said:

Wine drinkers in Thailand can rest assured, I believe, that the cheaper "fruit wines" here do not contain anything other than the fruit known as grape

Well you have dug a hole for yourself with your arrogance and misinformation, and with regards to your posts which advocate "wine fraud".......stated as:- "misrepresentation of the wine (such as variety, blend, origin, or vintage)", so let me add a few more snippets of information for you so that you can dig the hole even deeper: –

 

1). From the previous wine thread on ThaiVisa.com:- "we do know that Montclair red wine does contain Roselle (as it is stated on the box) but no one knows quite how the final product is achieved". 

2). This from an Australian wine buyer on a previous thread: – "Sorry for the lateish reply, have been down visiting some wineries in South Australia where I brought up this very topic with a number of wine makers.
The polite answer to this stuff that Montclair et al are producing: It is not wine.
The longer slightly more complex answer involves a lot of expletives".

3). From another contributor in Thailand: "Now here is something which I do applaud because it states on the box, "Made with Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot grapes and fruit juice...............".

4). An article in a Thai newspaper regarding cask wine, "The best-selling box wine in Thailand is Mont Clair red or white from Siam Winery. Packaged in a 5 liter box and sold at about Bt1000 it's a clever blend of South African wines (grape juice?) with an addition of fruit juice, other than grape, which permits substantially lower excise tax rates". 

So your assertion that "wine drinkers in Thailand can rest assured that the cheaper fruit wines here do not contain anything other than the fruit known as grape", is plain nonsense, especially as even Siam winery has previously quoted that their wine is a mixture of grape juice and fruit juice (Roselle) – – is that good enough for you?

 

PS. It would restore my faith in human nature to see some sort of an "apology" for your incorrect and unsubstantiated slights on my character and credentials, but arrogance such as yours is usually the hallmark of an altogether unsavoury type of character, so I expect none.

[moogradod]

On 11/5/2022 at 10:56 PM, Gottfrid said:

I do not actually know about the certain wine you are referring to. However, if it is Jean Max Roger Sancerre, then it is possible to find i Thailand.

There are 3 different versions and they cost between 2500 - 3000 per bottle.

Thank you, but where exactly may I deposit my cash to get one of those for a special occasion ?

[G Rex]

Jacobs Creek 'Classic' Shiraz Cabernet 2020.  - eminently drinkable! Wife loves this one. She finds CabSavs & merlots a bit heavy , and most shiraz a bit 'nothing'.   About 550 Baht @ TMK, a tad more at Tops.

[swerve]

I think you can find okay/good wines from about 450+ baht at Villa Market.  At that price point Australian and Chilean wines offer good value.  Family Mart has some good enough wines (e.g. Gato Negro at 480 baht).  Good on Family Mart.

 

Winepro's offerings are more expensive (say 600 baht and up), but are much better quality.  I would highly recommend people to go to a Winepro and take a look at what they sell.

[xylophone]

4 hours ago, swerve said:

I think you can find okay/good wines from about 450+ baht at Villa Market.  At that price point Australian and Chilean wines offer good value.  Family Mart has some good enough wines (e.g. Gato Negro at 480 baht).  Good on Family Mart.

 

Winepro's offerings are more expensive (say 600 baht and up), but are much better quality.  I would highly recommend people to go to a Winepro and take a look at what they sell.

Your comment about Wine Pro is spot on and one wine I can highly recommend is an Italian wine made using the Appassimento method, called;- "Camasella, Puglia, Rosso Appassimento 2020" and using this method gives the wine a great deal of body and depth of flavour, and an alcohol content of 15%. It is around 800 baht a bottle, but worth the experience if you haven't tried this type of wine before.....now one of my favourite wines!

 

Also worth noting is that the large "Supercheap" store in Phuket Town has a good range of wines, stored in a temperature controlled environment, and usually a little less costly than elsewhere.

[stuarty]

If In Winepro buy Macpherson Shiraz ( about 600 baht) and thank me later

Edited November 7, 2022 by stuarty

[Gottfrid]

14 hours ago, moogradod said:

Thank you, but where exactly may I deposit my cash to get one of those for a special occasion ?

White Wine Delivery by Wishbeer | Bangkok, Thailand