Independence referendum: Scottish government loses indyref2 court case

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Well, yes of course, and that there may be considerable division both within the UK, and in Scotland, where significant parts are fiercely pro union. The matter was done and dusted just 8 years ago, and it was agreed that it was a once and for all referendum. These referendums are so divisive and any result would likely not be definitive anyway- causing more problems than it solves.

How could it be any worse than the Brexit referendum, decided by a gnat's hair.

[mommysboy]

13 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Who knows maybe if they hadn't denied a vote to approx 1 million Scots including 800,000 living in the rest of the UK the result might have been different

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-scotland-independence-expatriates-idUSBREA0Q1JC20140127

The referendum was framed by SNP (not Westminster) which actually gave the SNP a significant advantage.  I believe it was thought that expats, mostly living in the UK, would mainly vote to remain in the UK.

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

How could it be any worse than the Brexit referendum, decided by a gnat's hair.

 That's my point- a buggers muddle that can never be allowed to happen again, and would be on the cards.  

 

Personally I believe a super majority is needed, and the agreement of most significant regions.  That should have been the rules for Brexit ref imo.

[James105]

Breaking news:  The tail finds out that it cannot wag the dog.   

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Nah.

 

Sturgeon is just using that as an attempt to justify re-running the vote. She wants to ruin Scotland for her own personal ambition. She'd rather have total power over an unsuccessful country than limited power over a successful one. I don't think the Scots are silly enough to fall for it.

We have put them in power in successive SG elections since 2010. If they were truly as bad as you seem to think, do you really think that would have happened?

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, James105 said:

Breaking news:  The tail finds out that it cannot wag the dog.   

While your analogy is true, it's not what was promised by Brown in 2014 when he said that if we voted No, Holyrood would be as powerful as Westminster. Sadly too many fell for the lies of the UK government and we continue to suffer the consequences.

Edited November 24, 2022 by RuamRudy

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 That's my point- a buggers muddle that can never be allowed to happen again, and would be on the cards.  

 

Personally I believe a super majority is needed, and the agreement of most significant regions.  That should have been the rules for Brexit ref imo.

I think that what the EU entry requirements will be 5 or 10 years super majority of 75%  of voting population and currency will be Euro on day 1. They know giving countries 20 years to move from their local currency to Euro will always drag on for longer

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, puchooay said:

The Scots didn't have a vote. They have never been a member of the EU.

 

UK were a member of EU. The UK voted to leave.

 

If that really is a motivation for Scottish independence then they are being misled. 

 

Were Scotland to leave UK They would be out in the wilderness for many years before EU would even consider allowing them in. 

We are in the wilderness now, except we have a right wing corrupt and incompetent government we have rejected at every election since 1955 in charge of us.

[GinBoy2]

I am but a intrigued American, who loves your country.

 

But from all my interactions with the British over decades, Ms Sturgeon would be better pressing for a vote from the English & Welsh on Scots independence.

 

......I think they'd be out a week on Wednesday!

Edited November 24, 2022 by GinBoy2

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Well, yes of course, and that there may be considerable division both within the UK, and in Scotland, where significant parts are fiercely pro union. The matter was done and dusted just 8 years ago, and it was agreed that it was a once and for all referendum. These referendums are so divisive and any result would likely not be definitive anyway- causing more problems than it solves.

Good lord, where before the canard was 'once in a generation', now it's 'once and for all'? Where does the nonsense spring from?

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

I am but a intrigued American, who loves your country.

 

But from all my interactions with the British over decades, Ms Sturgeon would be better pressing for a vote from the English & Welsh on Scots independence.

 

......I think they's be out a week on Wednesday!

That's the other point- the UK is a democracy.  The whole of the UK should be involved.  Last vote was really upsetting.

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Good lord, where before the canard was 'once in a generation', now it's 'once and for all'? Where does the nonsense spring from?

From the wording used at the time- in practice 'once and for all' is interpreted as once in a generation- every 30 or 40 years.  Mock ye not!

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

I am but a intrigued American, who loves your country.

 

But from all my interactions with the British over decades, Ms Sturgeon would be better pressing for a vote from the English & Welsh on Scots independence.

 

......I think they'd be out a week on Wednesday!

The Welsh independence movement is gaining significant traction, but sadly the English seem too afraid to go it alone. They constantly whine about subsidising ungrateful jocks, yet they fall over themselves to prevent said jocks from unburdening their southern neighbours.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, mommysboy said:

From the wording used at the time- in practice 'once and for all' is interpreted as once in a generation- every 30 or 40 years.  Mock ye not!

Can you highlight the documents which state either 'once and for all' or 'once in a generation'?

[James105]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

The Welsh independence movement is gaining significant traction, but sadly the English seem too afraid to go it alone. They constantly whine about subsidising ungrateful jocks, yet they fall over themselves to prevent said jocks from unburdening their southern neighbours.

I don't recall England getting a vote on whether or not we actually want to be part of a union with Scotland.  Did I miss it?  Surely it's Englands turn to have a say before Scotland gets another go.   The amount of complaining the Scots have been doing since (I think) Braveheart was released is starting to grate a bit so you would probably get your wish if we were allowed a vote on this.  

 

At least the Scots had a chance to have their say on this - that's one more go than the English have had.     

 

[RuamRudy]

An interesting poll from C4 taken yesterday afternoon.

 

Would you vote SNP at the next GE if a victory for them could lead to Scotland leaving the UK?

✅ Yes - 50%
❌  No - 33%

 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, James105 said:

I don't recall England getting a vote on whether or not we actually want to be part of a union with Scotland.  Did I miss it?  Surely it's Englands turn to have a say before Scotland gets another go.   The amount of complaining the Scots have been doing since (I think) Braveheart was released is starting to grate a bit so you would probably get your wish if we were allowed a vote on this.  

 

At least the Scots had a chance to have their say on this - that's one more go than the English have had.     

 

If you had seen the state of Thaivisa in the run up to 2014, you would know what I mean.

 

There were lots of cheap jibes (much like yours above) but an almost palpable rage by most English posters at the very notion of Scottish independence. 

 

But maybe these guys have something you might like?

https://www.englishdemocrats.party/

Edited November 24, 2022 by RuamRudy

[Mavideol]

12 hours ago, Scott said:

The Scottish government cannot hold an independence referendum without the UK government's consent, the Supreme Court has ruled.

and the UK is "supposed" to be a true democracy .... sure it is, as long as you play by our rules you can do whatever you want but we still have the last word, what is the UK afraid off, let Scotland be Scotland if someone wants freedom why not give it to them

 

 

[Slip]

42 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And its an election that will only give you a true result not some poll which are normally based on data modelling or data manipulation

and are only even published if they meet the requirements of the sponsor

Would we ever see a poll published that was sponsored by Brand A and they were expecting the poll to provide results that Brand A is the best thing since silced bread but the poll came back that the  majority of people that took part in the poll prefered Brand Z no we wouldn't

Here's a poll run by pro-brexit Caroline Coram and GB News which seems to fit those criteria, so I suggest the answer to the question you posed is 'yes we could'.  Notably they are running the poll for a 2nd time because they also lost the first one.  Of course it's only a twitter poll not a properly administered government one like the yougov mentioned earlier, but apparently that's all we need these days

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

and the UK is "supposed" to be a true democracy .... sure it is, as long as you play by our rules you can do whatever you want but we still have the last word, what is the UK afraid off, let Scotland be Scotland if someone wants freedom why not give it to them

 

 

Scotland is the UK  , Scotland is part of the U.K and the U.K decides , that is democracy .

  Scotland were given the opportunity to leave the U.K and the people of Scotland voted against  leaving 

[GinBoy2]

I love being an American observer of chaos, since many of you seem to revel in US chaos.

 

Isn't the elephant in the room that you have this weird devolution system, yet the largest part of that system is England which is ruled by this hybrid English/UK Westminster?

 

Create real National State Houses, all equal, and then just leave Westminster to deal with the external stuff, and see how that works.

 

I read so much cr$#$p on here criticizing US States for enacting abortion bans, death penalties, name a topic.

 

But thats the point each US State as a sovereign nation can choose individual options based on local wishes, yet still be part of a greater State. We make our own laws, make our own taxes, spend it how we want.

 

Figure out the big stuff and maybe you can all get along

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, JayClay said:

And if you break it down by age group it gets way more interesting.

 

The only demographic keeping Brexit remotely alive in public support are the 50+. They won't be around for ever...

You seem to be revelling in the fact that people are going to die

That is a rather unpleasant stance to take , not unexpected though 

[Aussieroaming]

Too bad

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

I love being an American observer of chaos, since many of you seem to revel in US chaos.

 

Isn't the elephant in the room that you have this weird devolution system, yet the largest part of that system is England which is ruled by this hybrid English/UK Westminster?

 

Create real National State Houses, all equal, and then just leave Westminster to deal with the external stuff, and see how that works.

 

I read so much cr$#$p on here criticizing US States for enacting abortion bans, death penalties, name a topic.

 

But thats the point each US State as a sovereign nation can choose individual options based on local wishes, yet still be part of a greater State. We make our own laws, make our own taxes, spend it how we want.

 

Figure out the big stuff and maybe you can all get along

Do give it a rest about the USA .

Scotland has their own Parliament , as do the Irish and Welsh.

England is the only Country that doesn't have their own Parliament .

  Westminster is made up of England , Scotland , N.Ireland and Wales and its located in London 

[hansnl]

9 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Oh dear oh dear. Nicola won't be happy. ????

 

The correct ruling though. They already voted to stay. No need to re-run it every 5 minutes until she gets the result she wants.

There is a group in Belgium who tend to do just that.

Again, again, again.

[mrfill]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Sturgeon is the one calling for another referendum.

 

I have no problem with voting. As long as the result of the vote is accepted and not re-run until the "correct" result is reached. Scotland already voted to stay in the UK in 2014. It's been decided already.

The party opposing the referendum seems to have a large problem with votes. It swept in with a huge majority and then, two years later, removed the leader and replaced it with Truss - voted in by only 80000. Truss failed catastrophically and so she was replaced by Sunak who was voted in by 0 party members.

They continually lecture people saying the Brexit vote and indyref cannot possibly be re-run because a vote has been done and then change their entire game plan that they were elected on and claim that they 'have a mandate' (they don't) and refuse to be put to the test, desperately clinging on to power until the last possible minute..

[3NUMBAS]

it was done and dusted at the batlle of bannockburn 500 years ago

[ozimoron]

47 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

That's the other point- the UK is a democracy.  The whole of the UK should be involved.  Last vote was really upsetting.

In fact, every country should have agreed before Brexit could proceed.

[ozimoron]

12 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You seem to be revelling in the fact that people are going to die

That is a rather unpleasant stance to take , not unexpected though 

Reel it in, please. He neither said not implied anything of the kind. Rather reminiscent of those who thought elderly covid victims were dispensable.

[James105]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

In fact, every country should have agreed before Brexit could proceed.

There are 5m people in Scotland.  There are 55m in England.  It's ridiculous to suggest that those 5m in Scotland should have equal weight with the 55m in England on matters that affect the UK as a whole.    England does not even have a say on matters that purely affect England.   Scottish MPs in Westminster have the ability to vote against bills passed that only affect England, whereas English MPs cannot vote against measures decided in Scottish parliament.   

 

There is an imbalance of democracy for sure here, but is not in England's favour.   Independence is just a distraction to tell Scots to look over there at the nasty English and ignore the mess she is making of the NHS, Education and the drugs issues in Scotland.   Perhaps if she focused on the stuff within her control and not on the stuff outside of her control Scotland would be doing better and the Scots would complain less.