Could this corruption scandal signal the end of the EU ?

[placeholder]

38 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Is that the best you've got? ????  

 

Let's wait until the full story comes out before assessing whether the plural or the singular should have been used. So far they have only scratched the surface of this sordid uncovering of EU corruption.

Actually, you also attempted to mitigate your misstatement that Kalli was the vice-president of the EU when in fact she was only one of 14, and that most of the VPs, including her, actually have very little power. Just part of your history of repeated exaggerations.

Edited January 19, 2023 by placeholder

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Still defending your use of the plural? So, it's your position that until a claim is definitively disproved, it's evidence?

Actually it's a figure of speech, sometimes referred to as multiplicity inferences.

 

Had I said the EU has "more than one" corrupt vice president then I would accept your point. However, saying the EU has corrupt vice presidents is ambiguous as to the number. To me, it implies at least one but possibly more than one.

 

It's very pedantic from you again though. If you went on holiday and said your daughter fed dolphins, I wouldn't be hugely upset if it turned out that she only actually fed one dolphin. "How dare you lie to me, you should have said she fed one dolphin only". ???? 

 

Like I said, if that's the best you've got then you must be pretty desperate.

[JonnyF]

18 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually, you also attempted to mitigate your misstatement that Kalli was the vice-president of the EU when in fact she was only one of 14, and that most of the VPs, including her, actually have very little power. Just part of your history of repeated exaggerations.

Again, pedantic in the extreme. I didn't say THE vice president. I said vice president.

 

There are actually currently 8 vice presidents, not 14. Wrong again. ???? 

 

I was correct. She is vice president. So are the other vice presidents.

[Phoenix Rising]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Again, pedantic in the extreme. I didn't say THE vice president. I said vice president.

 

There are actually currently 8 vice presidents, not 14. Wrong again. ???? 

 

I was correct. She is vice president. So are the other vice presidents.

She won't be for much longer. Wonder who'll be replacing her and thus be your VP when you rejoin.... ????

[JonnyF]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:34 PM, Phoenix Rising said:

She won't be for much longer. Wonder who'll be replacing her and thus be your VP when you rejoin.... ????

Not much chance of that  ????.

 

Talking of ridiculous notions of rejoining though, this corruption scandal has been more than a bit of a blow for the dreamers who think an Independent Scotland will join the corrupt EU. Double whammy for Sturgeon, I hope she's OK!

 

https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-scots-would-vote-against-independence-new-poll-suggests-12791201

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23269298.scottish-government-backed-group-faces-eu-ban-corruption-scandal/

 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Not much chance of that  ????.

 

Talking of ridiculous notions of rejoining though, this corruption scandal has been more than a bit of a blow for the dreamers who think an Independent Scotland will join the corrupt EU. Double whammy for Sturgeon, I hope she's OK!

 

https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-scots-would-vote-against-independence-new-poll-suggests-12791201

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23269298.scottish-government-backed-group-faces-eu-ban-corruption-scandal/

 

If this poll is accurate, then the majority Scottish voters are being sensible in their decision not to leave the UK. Because they understand the crucial economic importance of proximity when it comes to trade. 

And because Scottish voters understand the crucial importance of proximity when it comes to trade, they also want the UK to be part of the EU. Because it will be to their economic benefit.

Can offer some analysis of the economic impact on the member nations of the EU that this corruption scandal will have? So far you've offered none. 

[candide]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Not much chance of that  ????.

 

Talking of ridiculous notions of rejoining though, this corruption scandal has been more than a bit of a blow for the dreamers who think an Independent Scotland will join the corrupt EU. Double whammy for Sturgeon, I hope she's OK!

 

https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-scots-would-vote-against-independence-new-poll-suggests-12791201

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23269298.scottish-government-backed-group-faces-eu-ban-corruption-scandal/

 

Important precision ommitted by Sky: when “don’t knows” are removed

"In the first poll on Scottish voting intention released in 2023, backing for a Yes vote was at 46% when “don’t knows” are removed."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/poll-suggests-54percent-of-scots-would-vote-no-in-independence-referendum/ar-AA16yRXi

 

Has anyone found the detailed results?

Edited January 24, 2023 by candide

[JonnyF]

49 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If this poll is accurate, then the majority Scottish voters are being sensible in their decision not to leave the UK. Because they understand the crucial economic importance of proximity when it comes to trade. 

And because Scottish voters understand the crucial importance of proximity when it comes to trade, they also want the UK to be part of the EU. Because it will be to their economic benefit.

Glad to hear you speak on behalf of Scottish voters everywhere ????. Unfortunately the UK has already left the EU so that ship has sailed. It's good to hear they still want to stay in the UK though and haven't changed their minds since they voted to stay in 2014. Not surprising really, given the recent corruption scandal in the EU.

 

49 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Can offer some analysis of the economic impact on the member nations of the EU that this corruption scandal will have? So far you've offered none. 

Are you implying that corruption is OK as long as the economic impact is not significant?

 

I'm not sure you'd apply the same attitude if it was, oh I don't know, Donald Trump with the suitcases of cash under his bed. Yet you are fine to downplay it when it is an EU Vice President. Hypocritical much? In any case, it's impossible to know the economic significance until we know the full extent of the sordid story so it's a bit of a ridiculous question to ask at this stage.

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Glad to hear you speak on behalf of Scottish voters everywhere ????. Unfortunately the UK has already left the EU so that ship has sailed. It's good to hear they still want to stay in the UK though and haven't changed their minds since they voted to stay in 2014. Not surprising really, given the recent corruption scandal in the EU.

 

Are you implying that corruption is OK as long as the economic impact is not significant?

 

I'm not sure you'd apply the same attitude if it was, oh I don't know, Donald Trump with the suitcases of cash under his bed. Yet you are fine to downplay it when it is an EU Vice President. Hypocritical much? In any case, it's impossible to know the economic significance until we know the full extent of the sordid story so it's a bit of a ridiculous question to ask at this stage.

You make the unsound conclusion that if Scottish voters want to stay in the UK, that means that they don't also want to be part of the EU. 

 

Straw man, much? Nowhere did I imply that corruption is. But by your standards, corruption in any country should apparently result civil war. . Why would concern about this corruption scandal, want to make EU citizens leave the EU when stacked up against what an overwhelming majority see as its benefits? Especially when they see the unhappy object lesson otherwise known as the UK.

 

There have been no reports that show this bribery case could have widespread economic percussions. Let me know when something turns up that justifies your suggestion. Until then, all you're peddling is alarmism.

 

 

[candide]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Glad to hear you speak on behalf of Scottish voters everywhere ????. Unfortunately the UK has already left the EU so that ship has sailed. It's good to hear they still want to stay in the UK though and haven't changed their minds since they voted to stay in 2014. Not surprising really, given the recent corruption scandal in the EU.

 

Are you implying that corruption is OK as long as the economic impact is not significant?

 

I'm not sure you'd apply the same attitude if it was, oh I don't know, Donald Trump with the suitcases of cash under his bed. Yet you are fine to downplay it when it is an EU Vice President. Hypocritical much? In any case, it's impossible to know the economic significance until we know the full extent of the sordid story so it's a bit of a ridiculous question to ask at this stage.

Not an EU Vice President, the EU is not a federal state like the US. An EP Vice president, which is the equivalent of a select committee chair in UK.

 

No one is downplaying it. It's you continuously overplaying it, claiming that the whole EU institutions are corrupt, that the EU will collapse, etc...

 

Still waiting for the discovery of mass corruption and the collapse of the EU.....

[JonnyF]

More arrests in the EU corruption scandal. It really does seem to be infested.

 

It seems this EU socialist had a novel idea about wealth distribution.

 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/02/10/corruption-scandal-mep-marc-tarabella-arrested-by-belgian-police-pending-hearing-before-ju

 

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

More arrests in the EU corruption scandal. It really does seem to be infested.

 

It seems this EU socialist had a novel idea about wealth distribution.

 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/02/10/corruption-scandal-mep-marc-tarabella-arrested-by-belgian-police-pending-hearing-before-ju

 

Engulfed?

So far 4 MEPs have been charged. With Tarabella, that would make 5. How many MEPs are there? Somewhere over 700 I believe.

What's more, this bribery case was about Qatar and Kuwait paying bribes to be exempted from visa requirements. This is not about malfeasance in respect to EU funds.

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

There have been so many headlines in the hard right press over the past few years predicting the imminent demise of the EU, that it truly speaks volumes about the commitment of the brexiteers that they still manage to get so priapic despite so much disappointment emanating from the whole disastrous endeavour.

 

Clearly they have never heard of Betteridge's law of headlines:

 

Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

Engulfed?

So far 4 MEPs have been charged. With Tarabella, that would make 5. How many MEPs are there? Somewhere over 700 I believe.

What's more, this bribery case was about Qatar and Kuwait paying bribes to be exempted from visa requirements. This is not about malfeasance in respect to EU funds.

 

 

 

No. Far more serious than that.

[placeholder]

28 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No. Far more serious than that.

Evidence?

[Phoenix Rising]

30 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Evidence?

I hope you're not holding your breath.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Evidence?

What evidence do you have that this was just about bribes about visa requirements? There are new accusations of corruption against Kaili regarding separate alleged misuse of funds assigned to MEPs to pay their assistants. "There is a suspicion of fraud detrimental to the EU budget, in relation to the management of the parliamentary allowance," a press release said.

https://www.dw.com/en/amid-qatar-scandal-european-parliament-pledges-reform/a-64115509

 

And from the OP story, the German minister of foreign affairs, said the crisis had put the “credibility” and legitimacy of the EU on the line, and called for meaningful reform. Michiel van Hulten, director of Transparency International EU, blames a “culture of impunity”, with which he has been familiar ever since his own days as an MEP in the 1990s.

 

So, for many, this culture of impunity within the EU, is not new, nor the outcome unexpected. It is the issue of trust that is a danger for the EU. This time, so far, the commission has not been implicated, but if it were to be, as under Santer, then that might be a serious threat for the EU. In 1999, the EP facilitated the mass resignation of Santer's commission but if the EP is now sufficiently corrupt, then it might try to protect an equally corrupt commission.

 

Whatever, I'm sure the truth will take ages to come out - if it ever makes it that far.  

Edited February 13, 2023 by nauseus

[candide]

30 minutes ago, nauseus said:

What evidence do you have that this was just about bribes about visa requirements? There are new accusations of corruption against Kaili regarding separate alleged misuse of funds assigned to MEPs to pay their assistants. "There is a suspicion of fraud detrimental to the EU budget, in relation to the management of the parliamentary allowance," a press release said.

https://www.dw.com/en/amid-qatar-scandal-european-parliament-pledges-reform/a-64115509

 

And from the OP story, the German minister of foreign affairs, said the crisis had put the “credibility” and legitimacy of the EU on the line, and called for meaningful reform. Michiel van Hulten, director of Transparency International EU, blames a “culture of impunity”, with which he has been familiar ever since his own days as an MEP in the 1990s.

 

So, for many, this culture of impunity within the EU, is not new, nor the outcome unexpected. It is the issue of trust that is a danger for the EU. This time, so far, the commission has not been implicated, but if it were to be, as under Santer, then that might be a serious threat for the EU. In 1999, the EP facilitated the mass resignation of Santer's commission but if the EP is now sufficiently corrupt, then it might try to protect an equally corrupt commission.

 

Whatever, I'm sure the truth will take ages to come out - if it ever makes it that far.  

Well, as concerns misuse of parliamentary allowance, there is certainly no culture of impunity.

 

EU recovers £200,000 from Ukip MEPs accused of misusing funds

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/03/eu-recovers-200000-from-ukip-meps-accused-of-misusing-funds

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by candide

[Phoenix Rising]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

What evidence do you have that this was just about bribes about visa requirements? There are new accusations of corruption against Kaili regarding separate alleged misuse of funds assigned to MEPs to pay their assistants. "There is a suspicion of fraud detrimental to the EU budget, in relation to the management of the parliamentary allowance," a press release said.

https://www.dw.com/en/amid-qatar-scandal-european-parliament-pledges-reform/a-64115509

 

And from the OP story, the German minister of foreign affairs, said the crisis had put the “credibility” and legitimacy of the EU on the line, and called for meaningful reform. Michiel van Hulten, director of Transparency International EU, blames a “culture of impunity”, with which he has been familiar ever since his own days as an MEP in the 1990s.

 

So, for many, this culture of impunity within the EU, is not new, nor the outcome unexpected. It is the issue of trust that is a danger for the EU. This time, so far, the commission has not been implicated, but if it were to be, as under Santer, then that might be a serious threat for the EU. In 1999, the EP facilitated the mass resignation of Santer's commission but if the EP is now sufficiently corrupt, then it might try to protect an equally corrupt commission.

 

Whatever, I'm sure the truth will take ages to come out - if it ever makes it that far.  

This will have absolutely NO impact on the EU as you will see yourself when you rejoin.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, candide said:

Well, as concerns misuse of parliamentary allowance, there is certainly no culture of impunity.

 

EU recovers £200,000 from Ukip MEPs accused of misusing funds

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/03/eu-recovers-200000-from-ukip-meps-accused-of-misusing-funds

 

Always like a bit of up-to date news. Thanks.

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

This will have absolutely NO impact on the EU as you will see yourself when you rejoin.

You may well be right...... about the first part.

[JonnyF]

The EU corruption scandal continues to widen.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/arrest-warrant-two-meps-connected-qatargate-parliament-corruption-probe-maria-arena-alessandra-moretti/

 

 

They are all rushing to declare their 'gifts' now.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/meps-rush-declare-junkets-qatargate-analysis-transparency-international-corruption/

 

 

[placeholder]

27 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The EU corruption scandal continues to widen.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/arrest-warrant-two-meps-connected-qatargate-parliament-corruption-probe-maria-arena-alessandra-moretti/

 

 

They are all rushing to declare their 'gifts' now.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/meps-rush-declare-junkets-qatargate-analysis-transparency-international-corruption/

 

 

And you believe that this scandal about Qatar trying to influence Visa regulations for its citizens, and Morocco trying to secure the favorable regard of the EU for its position vis-a-vis the western Sahara, is a threat to the EU's existence?

It is to laugh.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

The EU corruption scandal continues to widen.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/arrest-warrant-two-meps-connected-qatargate-parliament-corruption-probe-maria-arena-alessandra-moretti/

 

 

They are all rushing to declare their 'gifts' now.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/meps-rush-declare-junkets-qatargate-analysis-transparency-international-corruption/

 

 

Good to see that a level of scrutiny and transparency is being introduced. Late, yes, but better than never. If only other governments were as willingly open about their politicians' affairs...

[candide]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

The EU corruption scandal continues to widen.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/arrest-warrant-two-meps-connected-qatargate-parliament-corruption-probe-maria-arena-alessandra-moretti/

 

 

They are all rushing to declare their 'gifts' now.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/meps-rush-declare-junkets-qatargate-analysis-transparency-international-corruption/

 

 

Nice to see there is more transparency about MEP's sponsored trips. The list is provided in the Politico article. Hmmm... lots of suspect sponsors such as Harvard University, Nobel Peace Center, Czech Academy of Sciences, Confrérie des chevaliers du Tastevin......????

[candide]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Good to see that a level of scrutiny and transparency is being introduced. Late, yes, but better than never. If only other governments were as willingly open about their politicians' affairs...

Your post gave me the idea to check. Actually it seems JonnyF was right to state that the EP scandal would have significant repercussions! ????

 

"LONDON — British MPs have defended taking gifts paid for by the Qatari government as a corruption scandal in Brussels shines the spotlight on lobbying by the country ahead of the World Cup.

The Qatari government spent more than £260,000 in gifts, hospitality and travel on British MPs since October last year."

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-mps-defend-accepting-260000-in-qatari-gifts-before-world-cup/

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, candide said:

Your post gave me the idea to check. Actually it seems JonnyF was right to state that the EP scandal would have significant repercussions! ????

 

"LONDON — British MPs have defended taking gifts paid for by the Qatari government as a corruption scandal in Brussels shines the spotlight on lobbying by the country ahead of the World Cup.

The Qatari government spent more than £260,000 in gifts, hospitality and travel on British MPs since October last year."

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-mps-defend-accepting-260000-in-qatari-gifts-before-world-cup/

Not good but no comparison to the MEP's found with hundreds of thousands in cash.

[candide]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not good but no comparison to the MEP's found with hundreds of thousands in cash.

No harm seen, no harm done!

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

No harm seen, no harm done!

No comparison made.

[JonnyF]

Oh dear, not another one hopefully.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-prosecutor-seize-170000-euro-italy-far-right-league-party-mep-fraud-probe-stefania-zambelli/