Brexit has cracked Britain’s economic foundations

[Bluespunk]

9 minutes ago, superal said:

Apologies , as I thought I pasted both links but please read attached link that should appease .

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-office-announces-tougher-criminality-rules-for-eu-citizens

So you are referring to people with spent convictions who have served their time and been released from incarceration?

 

Also can you tell me how this issue is actually linked to the topic of this thread-that is how brexit has cracked Britain’s economic foundations?

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bluespunk
Question added

[superal]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

So you are referring to people with spent convictions who have served their time and been released from incarceration?

yes because known criminals who have been convicted of crimes and served a penal sentence are likely to have a visa refused in most civilised countries  

[Bluespunk]

7 minutes ago, superal said:

yes because known criminals who have been convicted of crimes and served a penal sentence are likely to have a visa refused in most civilised countries  

Yes I get that, though I don’t really see it as an issue unless they are actively engaged in crime.
 

Now, again how does this relate to the theme of this thread?

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, superal said:

yes because known criminals who have been convicted of crimes and served a penal sentence are likely to have a visa refused in most civilised countries  

It is permitted to reject those with a criminal record seeking to gain entry into the Schengen zone. There was never a legal barrier to the UK either denying entry to such people or expelling them whether their crimes were committed inside or outside of the UK.

[Bluespunk]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It is permitted to reject those with a criminal record seeking to gain entry into the Schengen zone. There was never a legal barrier to the UK either denying entry to such people or expelling them whether their crimes were committed inside or outside of the UK.

Ah, so not only unrelated to the topic but also untrue. 
 

Thanks for that. 

[Andrew65]

22 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No it doesn’t.

Anything negative in the UK gets blamed on Brexit by <deleted>, even when there can be no possible link to it, and that includes the economic effects of COVID.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Andrew65

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

Anything negative in the UK gets blamed on Brexit by <deleted>, even when there can be no possible link to it, and that includes the economic effects of COVID.

If Covid was confined to the UK you'd have a better point.

[Andrew65]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If Covid was confined to the UK you'd have a better point.

It's a really good point that Brexit and COVID19 happened in the UK at almost exactly the same time.

[ozimoron]

11 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

It's a really good point that Brexit and COVID19 happened in the UK at almost exactly the same time.

They're definitely connected.

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

It's a really good point that Brexit and COVID19 happened in the UK at almost exactly the same time.

It's an equally good point that it was mostly only Covid that happened in the EU. Of course, there had to have been some effect from Brexit on the EU. The EU never denied that Brexit wasn't good for either the UK or the EU. But the effect on the EU is obviously far more diluted.

[vinny41]

27 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It is permitted to reject those with a criminal record seeking to gain entry into the Schengen zone. There was never a legal barrier to the UK either denying entry to such people or expelling them whether their crimes were committed inside or outside of the UK.

That rule apply only to Non EU citizens attempting to enter Schengen zone

Article 27 of Directive 2004/38

 Measures taken on grounds of public policy or public security shall comply with the principle of proportionality and shall be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned. Previous criminal convictions shall not in themselves constitute grounds for taking such measures.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A62007CC0033

[superal]

34 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It is permitted to reject those with a criminal record seeking to gain entry into the Schengen zone. There was never a legal barrier to the UK either denying entry to such people or expelling them whether their crimes were committed inside or outside of the UK.

Correct and that was under the E.U. laws concerning entry into the UK . Now since Brexit that law has been quashed . Criminals will not be granted visas into the UK who have served more than 1 year in prison . Please read my previous link and try to keep up . 

[Andrew65]

11 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

That rule apply only to Non EU citizens attempting to enter Schengen zone

Article 27 of Directive 2004/38

 Measures taken on grounds of public policy or public security shall comply with the principle of proportionality and shall be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned. Previous criminal convictions shall not in themselves constitute grounds for taking such measures.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A62007CC0033

Isn't it the thing that it's not people entering Schengen or the UK that's the problem, it's that the ECHR makes it incredibly hard to deport them once they do. The soveriegnty of our country was signed away when we were signed up to it. Decisions on who gets to stay in the UK are ultimately taken by mainly foreign judges in France.

Also, most or all of the illegals entering Britain wouldn't even be given a tourist visa using the legal method.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Andrew65

[Kwasaki]

23 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The question is ‘better at what?’ 
 

What is the particular measure you are referring to and is it of any significance?

 

So ‘UK doing slightly better than Germany’ please explain what ‘slightly better’ you are referring to?

Have a proper read not just the bits you want to believe. 

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

That rule apply only to Non EU citizens attempting to enter Schengen zone

Article 27 of Directive 2004/38

 Measures taken on grounds of public policy or public security shall comply with the principle of proportionality and shall be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned. Previous criminal convictions shall not in themselves constitute grounds for taking such measures.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A62007CC0033

While there seems to be some wiggle room there, I looked up British immigration rules before Brexit was even voted on, and I came up with this:

"Criminality grounds

9.4.1. An application for entry clearance, permission to enter or permission to stay must be refused where the applicant:

(a) has been convicted of a criminal offence in the UK or overseas for which they have received a custodial sentence of 12 months or more; or

(b) is a persistent offender who shows a particular disregard for the law; or

(c) has committed a criminal offence, or offences, which caused serious harm.

9.4.2. Entry clearance or permission held by a person must be cancelled where the person:

(a) has been convicted of a criminal offence in the UK or overseas for which they have received a custodial sentence of 12 months or more; or

(b) is a persistent offender who shows a particular disregard for the law; or

(c) has committed a criminal offence, or offences, which caused serious harm.

9.4.3. An application for entry clearance, permission to enter or permission to stay may be refused (where paragraph 9.4.2. and 9.4.4. do not apply) where the applicant:

(a) has been convicted of a criminal offence in the UK or overseas for which they have received a custodial sentence of less than 12 months; or

(b) has been convicted of a criminal offence in the UK or overseas for which they have received a non-custodial sentence, or received an out-of-court disposal that is recorded on their criminal record."

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-part-9-grounds-for-refusal

[vinny41]

Reality Check: How many EU nationals have been refused entry to the UK? April 2016 

Reality Check verdict: The UK refuses a tiny fraction of EU nationals who want to come here. It has to have very good grounds to do so. In the case of criminality, for example, a conviction even for a serious crime in not good enough - the individual must pose a current risk.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36101449

[superal]

48 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Yes I get that, though I don’t really see it as an issue unless they are actively engaged in crime.
 

Now, again how does this relate to the theme of this thread?

It is in answer to you and your cronies who have been harping on about Brexit non stop , as the case of the topic which in itself is  a misdemeanour because it is an exaggeration . The severance of foreign labour is supposed to be one of the reasons for the decline in the UK economy  . Do you get that or do you want to carry on being pedantic ?  

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Reality Check: How many EU nationals have been refused entry to the UK? April 2016 

Reality Check verdict: The UK refuses a tiny fraction of EU nationals who want to come here. It has to have very good grounds to do so. In the case of criminality, for example, a conviction even for a serious crime in not good enough - the individual must pose a current risk.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36101449

Thanks for the correction. Although, there does seem to be a conflict between the written rules I have cited and some other rules.

[vinny41]

Can someone with a criminal record travel to Europe?

In comparison, European countries and especially the Schengen Area countries have far more relaxed rules surrounding entry for travellers with a criminal record. In general, visitors to the Schengen Area will not receive a European criminal conviction check at border control.

https://www.etias.info/travel-to-europe-with-a-criminal-record/

 

It does state 

Travellers who have served 3 years in prison or more, or who have been convicted of illegal smuggling or drug offences with a 2-year prison term or more, are likely to be refused visa entry. Once again this only applies to Non EU nationals

[Bluespunk]

12 minutes ago, superal said:

It is in answer to you and your cronies who have been harping on about Brexit non stop , as the case of the topic which in itself is  a misdemeanour because it is an exaggeration . The severance of foreign labour is supposed to be one of the reasons for the decline in the UK economy  . Do you get that or do you want to carry on being pedantic ?  

I mention brexit when it is relevant, something that appears to upset you and your fellow brexit cheerleaders. 
 

The thread topic is backed up by data, hence your attempts to introduce deflection information.
 

How brexit of you. 
 

The difficulties in being able to access a huge labour market  is indeed one of the self inflicted brexit problems for the U.K. but not sure how that links to your deflections regarding deporting/refusing entry to those who have spent criminal convictions…

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bluespunk

[Andrew65]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Can someone with a criminal record travel to Europe?

In comparison, European countries and especially the Schengen Area countries have far more relaxed rules surrounding entry for travellers with a criminal record. In general, visitors to the Schengen Area will not receive a European criminal conviction check at border control.

https://www.etias.info/travel-to-europe-with-a-criminal-record/

 

It does state 

Travellers who have served 3 years in prison or more, or who have been convicted of illegal smuggling or drug offences with a 2-year prison term or more, are likely to be refused visa entry. Once again this only applies to Non EU nationals

If someone arrives illegally, having thrown away their passport, how can we know who they really are, or where they come from, or whether or not they have a criminal record where they come from?

[superal]

1 minute ago, Bluespunk said:

I mention brexit when it is relevant, something that appears to upset you and your fellow brexit cheerleaders. 
 

The thread topic is backed up by data, hence your attempts to introduce deflection and it appears potentially inaccurate information.
 

How brexit of you. 
 

The difficulties in being able to access a huge labour market  is indeed one of the self inflicted brexit problems for the U.K. but not sure how that links to your deflections regarding deporting/refusing entry to those who have spent criminal convictions…

Beyond your comprehension ? I suggest you go to another topic 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, superal said:

Beyond your comprehension ? I suggest you go to another topic 

Another instance that further establishes your credentials as a serial deflector.

[Bluespunk]

22 minutes ago, superal said:

Beyond your comprehension ? I suggest you go to another topic 

No, I comprehend exactly what you are trying to do with your off topic deflections and attempts to belittle those who point them out to you. 
 

You don’t get to say which threads I post on., so please file your suggestion under neither wanted nor required. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bluespunk

[superal]

4 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

If someone arrives illegally, having thrown away their passport, how can we know who they really are, or where they come from, or whether or not they have a criminal record where they come from?

Indeed , that has always been a problem with smuggled illegal entrants . I have watched TV documentaries where the UK immigration enter a commercial work place and challenge workers for their work visa and passports which some do not have and they are taken to a police station , questioned and released under caution to report weekly but they just vanish to another town . It is really a farce . Maybe under the new Braverman laws they can be given a free flight to Rwanda ?   

[vinny41]

24 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thanks for the correction. Although, there does seem to be a conflict between the written rules I have cited and some other rules.

Any EU national that was refused entry before Brexit would be seeking to have that decsion overturned and made null and void using directive 2004/38/ec via the EU courts Likewise any country that refused entry would need to refer to directive 2004/38/ec

[Chomper Higgot]

52 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Have a proper read not just the bits you want to believe. 

Provide the measure by which you claim the UK is doing better than Germany and I’ll read it.

[vinny41]

30 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

If someone arrives illegally, having thrown away their passport, how can we know who they really are, or where they come from, or whether or not they have a criminal record where they come from?

Asylum claimants found to have destroyed their documents can be prosecuted under a 2004 law passed by the Tony Blair government.

However, Ministry of Justice data shows a dramatic decline in the number of prosecutions of this offence since 2005. One dataset even indicated that there were only two prosecutions in 2019 for being unable to produce an immigration document at an asylum or leave interview (a year when 1,840 are known to have crossed the Channel in boats).

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/news/2022/02/24/98-of-channel-boat-migrants-have-no-passport

[superal]

54 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Another instance that further establishes your credentials as a serial deflector.

If you cannot stand the heat , get out of the kitchen

[hotandsticky]

35 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Provide the measure by which you claim the UK is doing better than Germany and I’ll read it.

Football......there is one.