Brokerage Firm for Stocks and IRA's American; Schwab wants to disown me for being Expat.

[suzannegoh]

15 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Without but be clear they know where you are even with a VPN. Financial institutions have tools.

 

Banks etc are blocking people all the time that are using VPNs.

 

VPNs are only good to shield your activity from your IP and accessing geo restricted websites.

 

Probably over 90 percent of people paying for VPNs don't need them. They are oversold.

 

Even logging in an a public wireless network doesn't need a VPN as things like banking are already encrypted.

 

But banks are a higher level of surveillance.

 

 

They might have tools for that but it doesn’t seem like Fidelity tries very hard to catch people.  I’ve tested my VPN the best that I can to make sure that there are no leaks but I regularly use a Fidelity ATM card from Thailand and I’ve been doing that for 14 years without them saying anything about it.  It seems like it should be pretty obvious from the ATM withdrawals where I am living.

If you, or anyone else here, has specific knowledge of howwhat tools  banks detect your location when you’re using.  I’ve tried to anonymise  as well as possible using https://whoer.net to find vulnerabilities.  Certain things that might tip off a bank are obvious, such as not turning off your devices “location services” but whoe.netr looks for a lot of more subtle things too, like DNS leaks and whether the time zone on your computers matches the time zone of your IP address.

 

[Jingthing]

All I can say is whatever is working for you will work until the time that maybe it doesn't.

 

With AI coming in who knows what's next.

 

Don't get too comfortable with any solution.

 

Have backups and Plan Bs.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jingthing

[suzannegoh]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

All I can say is whatever is working for you will work until the time that maybe it doesn't.

 

With AI coming in who knows what's next.

 

Don't get too comfortable with any solution.

 

Have backups and Plan Bs.

From what I've heard before, all that Fidelity does if they find out that you're living abroad is restrict you from buying (but not from selling) mutual funds. That wouldn't be the end of the world. And as I said, it doesn't seem like Fidelity trying very hard to catch people.  The only ones that I've heard of (except perhaps for you) having their accounts restricted were people who told Fidelity that they had moved abroad or had taken absolutely no measures to spoof their location.  Seems like they are taking a "don't ask, don't tell" approach - though of course that could change if the Feds start leaning on them to better "know their customer".

[IAMHERE]

Thanks for the replies and info. Schwab will let me keep the IRS/ROTH/Regular trading accounts; the checking account will be closed. Just a form to fill out on a website that I can not open and the chore of switching all my direct deposits to Bangkok Bank. Should be doable.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

Thanks for the replies and info. Schwab will let me keep the IRS/ROTH/Regular trading accounts; the checking account will be closed. Just a form to fill out on a website that I can not open and the chore of switching all my direct deposits to Bangkok Bank. Should be doable.

Great!

 

You can also open an account with State Department Federal Credit Union from Thailand, you can be open to them that you're an expat, and direct deposit to them. Easy to use online SWIFTs with them that cost 30 dollars. I use them and do one or two wires a year.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jingthing

[gamb00ler]

3 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

Thanks for the replies and info. Schwab will let me keep the IRS/ROTH/Regular trading accounts; the checking account will be closed. Just a form to fill out on a website that I can not open and the chore of switching all my direct deposits to Bangkok Bank. Should be doable.

If  the "regular trading account" Schwab is allowing you to keep is actually a brokerage account you can use it to receive any direct deposits that are currently being sent to your checking account.  I have been doing that for years now so I'm sure it works.

 

With a brokerage account, you will also be eligible for a Schwab debit card which is great for accessing your US funds from Thailand via ATM's or cash advances at Bangkok bank teller window.  Schwab charges no fees on their card and refund the fees added by Thai ATM's.

[khaepmu]

Why do the banks/financial institutions assume you are living overseas just because you make some transactions or emails from Thailand. I call my mutual fund/brokerage company from Thailand and during the conversations I always point out that I am vacationing in Thailand and SE Asia and staying at my Thai wife's house for a few months. (I have been using  my brother's American mailing address since the company informed me that I must have a US mailing address.) I also send emails from Thailand, not often, but they have yet to give me a warning. More recently, when I call from Thailand I use SKYPE. Don't know if they can tell if the call is made from Thailand using SKYPE. I transfer money to Thailand from my American bank using TransferWise. Once I make a transfer request using Wise I don't know if the bank knows where the money is going. 

 

On another note, I have a Transfer on Death for my Thai wife with my American brokerage/mutual fund company. I called then recently to ask and clarify what steps my wife would have to take to have my money sent to her bank in Thailand in the event of my death. They explained in detail (death certificate translated to English etc.) Even though she has reasonable English language skills,  I asked them what my wife could do if she wasn't sure or had questions about the procedures and he told me they would arrange a Thai translator to assist my wife. They didn't seemed be  concerned or wonder why I would be in Thailand if I passed away  when

I am meant to b living in the USA.

 

 

[suzannegoh]

1 hour ago, khaepmu said:

Why do the banks/financial institutions assume you are living overseas just because you make some transactions or emails from Thailand. I call my mutual fund/brokerage company from Thailand and during the conversations I always point out that I am vacationing in Thailand and SE Asia and staying at my Thai wife's house for a few months. (I have been using  my brother's American mailing address since the company informed me that I must have a US mailing address.) I also send emails from Thailand, not often, but they have yet to give me a warning. More recently, when I call from Thailand I use SKYPE. Don't know if they can tell if the call is made from Thailand using SKYPE. I transfer money to Thailand from my American bank using TransferWise. Once I make a transfer request using Wise I don't know if the bank knows where the money is going.

 

Depending upon what type of account it is, there could be other explanations for there being only transactions initiated from abroad, but it's understandable that it might trigger a letter being sent asking for verification of your address.  If I was creating an algorithm to detect customers that might have moved abroad, accessing the account only for foreign IP addresses is one thing that I’d include in it.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by suzannegoh

[Thailand J]

On 12/30/2022 at 11:34 AM, JimGant said:

My traditional IRA is with Schwab, and my address on record with them is my Thai address. The only downside of not having a US address is that I can't trade online, as I found out last year when I tried to sell some shares in the IRA account to cover my RMD (required minimum distribution). Instead, I had to call their international number and do the trade via phone. And I had to pay $25 for the inconvenience of not being allowed to trade online, again, due to having a foreign address.

 

I can see all my 3 accounts when I log in to Schwab website :Individual, Joint and IRA.

To meet RMD I sell stocks online in the IRA account, wait until the trade has settled, and transfer the proceed online into my Individual account. The standard withholding is 10% and I download online a 1099R from Schab when it is tax time.

 

I have Thai address on my accounts too, everything can be done online.

 

[JimGant]

9 hours ago, Thailand J said:

I have Thai address on my accounts too, everything can be done online.

You must have individual stocks. I have mutual funds in my IRA.

 

Quote

This account is restricted from Mutual Fund trading online. Please call +1-415-667-8400 (outside US) or 877-686-1937 (within US) to speak with a registered representative who will assist you with offshore Mutual Fund Trading.

 

[Captain Monday]

You have to change everything in your brokerage to a Schwab International account. Had it for years before the pandemic and being locked out of Thailand. There are many mutual funds that cannot be traded by non US residents is one issue. 

 

[Digitalbanana]

I have a TD Ameritrade (owned by Schwab) for trading US stocks with a Thai address and I am not a US citizen.

 

From 1-Jan-23 there are some changes though, when trading PTP (public traded partnerships) for which the list is long and changeable but seems to be mostly commodity and energy ETF's. If trading these from 1-Jan-23 the broker will withhold 10% tax on the proceeds (not just the profits) of the sale. This seems like taking the proverbial so I won't be buying any of these ETF's from now on.

[wasabi]

I recently had the same issue as the OP with my Schwab account where they began asking for a physical Us address. For years I used a virtual mailbox address with no problem but it does seem they are catching up on that now perhaps due to the TD merger that's coming up. I also had a TD account for many years which I greatly preferred and only used the Schwab for the free ATM withdrawals. It is unfortunate they're merging but nothing I can do about that. This first came to my attention when they froze my account without any warning which caused a number of problems. Fortunately I do have a relative in the United States who let me use their address and the account was unfrozen. 

I'm thinking about using Wise to get money to Thailand instead of the ATM withdrawals hopefully that doesn't make it get flagged again. Of course I prefer the free ATM withdrawals but if that account were to be frozen permanently I'd be forced to go back to the United States.

[JimGant]

On 12/29/2022 at 9:21 AM, IAMHERE said:

Please confirm your primary residence within 60 days in one of the following ways:   - ......

IAM, could you provide the "following ways." If they require a utility bill, drivers license, or the like -- having a mail forwarding address or using a relative's address ain't gonna hack it.

[Adumbration]

On 12/29/2022 at 12:31 PM, Jingthing said:

Interactive brokers.

Hurry.

Last time I checked the minimum open was 100k. Not sure if that is current.

If they force a cash out of a traditional IRA the tax hit would be a disaster. 

 

I've been talking about these issues for many years already.

 

Some people choose to be an ostrich about it.

 

Just because you haven't been  busted yet by your US banks and brokerages doesn’t mean you won't.

 

Maybe same rules do not apply to me because I am an Australian.  However I had been with Commsec the brokerage arm of the Commonwealth bank.  They shut me down about this time last year.  About 3 months ago I opened an account with interactive brokers.  I used an old Australian address and my Thai mobile phone number during sign up process.  Everything went fine and my approval email was received in literally a couple of minutes.  I used my passport as ID and there was no request for further documents.

 

There was no request for minimum funding requirements.

 

I have started to trade and everything on that front is ok...However, the Trader workstation has a very clunky and poorly designed IX.  I have the trade PRO account not the Lite version.

 

For Australians one thing to be aware of is that IBKR is custodial, that is they hold your shares in their account (unlike most Australian brokers where the Chess statement for your Australian shares is issued in your name).  This exposes you to additional risk in the event that IBKR goes bust.  Positive flip side of this situation however, is that you are not bombarded with paperwork (chess statments) which the retarded ASX still sends out by mail.  

 

I am currently skim trading a junk bond fund that yields 6.6% with distributions paid monthly.  If I get trapped in trade I still get 6.6%pa on my money.  My goal is to skim 4% per month for a total return of 48% pa.  First month I managed 2.5%, last month 4.2%, and I bought into a new position close of business 2022.  I have a sell order for that holding in for Tuesday set at 1.8%.  The fund goes ex distribution on Tuesday also, so if the planets align I will get my skim and also the December distribution.  There is often (but not always) a kick in the share price on ex dividend day because mom and pop investors do understand how it works.  

Edited January 1, 2023 by Adumbration

[JimGant]

57 minutes ago, wasabi said:

I'm thinking about using Wise to get money to Thailand instead of the ATM withdrawals hopefully that doesn't make it get flagged again.

If you have $25k why not open a Schwab International Account? You don't need to actively trade, or to even hold securities. Just use it as a bank, with your deposits and wires. Also, you can get a checkbook and the famous Schwab Debit/ATM card.

[skatewash]

Very sorry to hear about this, but can't say it's unexpected.  The US government continues to force regulations on financial institutions that make it undesirable for them to have US customers who live overseas.

I can only recommend that people maintain a US address and US phone number for US financial institutions.  Never let them know you are living overseas.  I realize that parties if interested sufficiently can tell that a US mailing address is not a residential address and that a US phone number may only be a Google Voice number or other VOIP number, but still I recommend their use.  Just because someone can do the detective work to find out where you really live doesn't mean they will be sufficiently motivated to actually do it.  Bottom line: don't make it easy for them.

To those that need to prove that they "reside" at their US mailing address here is possibly something to try.  The IRS will snail mail a copy of the transcript for your last tax return filed to your US mailing address.  You can make this request online and within 10 business days the IRS will snail mail to the address you provide.  I do this every year because it is additional evidence that the IRS has received and processed my tax return (important if you have $0 tax liability as you would not get a receipt for payment or a refund under those circumstances).  The letter from the IRS to your US mailing address may be suitable for proving that you "reside" at that address.  I use travelingmailbox.com but there are many other Commercial Mail Receiving Agencies (CMRA) that offer a similar virtual mailbox capability (one in which I can get online scans of the envelope and contents of letters received at that address).

More information about the IRS service:

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/heres-how-people-can-request-a-copy-of-their-previous-tax-return

[skatewash]

2 hours ago, skatewash said:

Very sorry to hear about this, but can't say it's unexpected.  The US government continues to force regulations on financial institutions that make it undesirable for them to have US customers who live overseas.

I can only recommend that people maintain a US address and US phone number for US financial institutions.  Never let them know you are living overseas.  I realize that parties if interested sufficiently can tell that a US mailing address is not a residential address and that a US phone number may only be a Google Voice number or other VOIP number, but still I recommend their use.  Just because someone can do the detective work to find out where you really live doesn't mean they will be sufficiently motivated to actually do it.  Bottom line: don't make it easy for them.

To those that need to prove that they "reside" at their US mailing address here is possibly something to try.  The IRS will snail mail a copy of the transcript for your last tax return filed to your US mailing address.  You can make this request online and within 10 business days the IRS will snail mail to the address you provide.  I do this every year because it is additional evidence that the IRS has received and processed my tax return (important if you have $0 tax liability as you would not get a receipt for payment or a refund under those circumstances).  The letter from the IRS to your US mailing address may be suitable for proving that you "reside" at that address.  I use travelingmailbox.com but there are many other Commercial Mail Receiving Agencies (CMRA) that offer a similar virtual mailbox capability (one in which I can get online scans of the envelope and contents of letters received at that address).

More information about the IRS service:

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/heres-how-people-can-request-a-copy-of-their-previous-tax-return

Just adding that the transcript is mailed to your address on file with the IRS.  If that's not the address you want it mailed to then you should change the address first before requesting the transcript.

[JimmyJ]

On 12/30/2022 at 10:18 AM, bunnydrops said:

 By law, I think, you are supposed to be in the States most (more than half) the time, but they don't really check on that. Owning property, receiving official mail at that address is prove enough.

What law?

What Department of Government made such a law?

[JimmyJ]

 

[JimmyJ]

@IAMHERE - 

"Please confirm your primary residence within 60 days in one of the following ways:"

 

Could you please post that section of the letter detailing the ways to confirm?

[wasabi]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

If you have $25k why not open a Schwab International Account? You don't need to actively trade, or to even hold securities. Just use it as a bank, with your deposits and wires. Also, you can get a checkbook and the famous Schwab Debit/ATM card.

This type of account sounds like a good idea do you know if you have to be in the United States to open it?

[JimmyJ]

@IAMHERE - 

 

Thank you for your OP sharing your situation.

 

I find several aspects of it a bit alarming:

 

"I kept an address in Florida at my BIL but I'm guessing that's not good enough."

 

I'm assuming BIL= Brother In Law, and it was an actual Residential address.

Is that correct?

 

If so, like yourself I'm also wondering what made them single you out.

 

"I expect they 'caught' me because they looked at my withdrawals over the last 20 months or so and all of them were from Thailand. Maybe just bad luck, a new program analytic, or noticed I'd also sent two wires to a Thai bank in the last year."

 

If you wouldn't mind sharing a little more info:

 

Were the 2 wires you mention the only times you did an international wire to Thailand from your Schwab account?

 

For the last 20 months which  you mention, did you do ATM withdrawals in Thailand at least monthly? Several times a month?

 

I tend to use the same ATM when I do my withdrawals in Thailand.

Were you using (at least mostly)  the same ATM?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, wasabi said:

This type of account sounds like a good idea do you know if you have to be in the United States to open it?

Nope. You can do it online from wherever you are. Need a certificate of residency or a utility bill to show proof of your foreign address. Plus, you'll need to be able to wire or ach $25k to the newly established account. See here:

https://international.schwab.com/open-account-intro

[IAMHERE]

12 hours ago, JimGant said:

IAM, could you provide the "following ways." If they require a utility bill, drivers license, or the like -- having a mail forwarding address or using a relative's address ain't gonna hack it.

Please confirm your primary residence within 60 days in one of the following ways:   -   Phone:  Call us at 1-888-403-9000, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, or +1-415-667-8400 if calling from outside the U.S.   -   Online chat:  Log in to Schwab.com and click the "Chat" icon to speak with a Client Service Specialist 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We need to receive confirmation of your primary residence by February 27, 2023. If we do not receive confirmation as requested, your account(s) will be closed. You'll receive a notification if your account(s) is closed. If any assets remain in your account(s) at the time of closure, Schwab Bank will either transfer the assets to a Schwab Bank or Charles Schwab & Co., Inc. account with like registration, if available, or mail a check for the entire account balance(s) to the address on record for your account(s).

We're here to help.   Not so helpful yet. Have to call their Global Services Division in  Dallas which is closed for Holidays/weekends. So I'm treading water til sometime Tuesday late in the day.

[Digitalbanana]

22 hours ago, JimGant said:

If you have $25k why not open a Schwab International Account? You don't need to actively trade, or to even hold securities. Just use it as a bank, with your deposits and wires. Also, you can get a checkbook and the famous Schwab Debit/ATM card.

I opened a TD Ameritrade (part of Schwab) account as an expat. They only require 500USD deposit, but you need 25kUSD to get access to certain trades like unlimited options day trading. There is no ATM card, but I don't use it as a bank but a trading account.

[JimmyJ]

For USA citizens - I'm assuming that once one opens an account "as an expat" -  i.e., using one's Thai address as the Home address - that such info goes to the 3 major Credit agencies, and if one tries to open a Credit Card or Bank Account after that, the banks will take that into consideration and the vast majority will not accept one as a new client (with brokerages most likely to still accept if they have International accounts).

 

Have any of you who use your Thai address as your home address had any such experience? 

Or were you accepted for other accounts after opening an International account?

 

I can imagine possible problems also for renewing a US Driver's License (but perhaps not).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by JimmyJ

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/30/2022 at 6:11 AM, IAMHERE said:

Yep, I've been with them for 27 years. I expect they 'caught' me because they looked at my withdrawals over the last 20 months or so and all of them were from Thailand. Maybe just bad luck, a new program analytic, or noticed I'd also sent two wires to a Thai bank in the last year.

 

What were the options they gave you in the letter you cited in your OP for confirming your U.S. address?

 

Quote

Please confirm your primary residence within 60 days in one of the following ways:

 

Possible to satisfy their request?

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/31/2022 at 6:05 AM, IAMHERE said:

Thanks for the replies and info. Schwab will let me keep the IRS/ROTH/Regular trading accounts; the checking account will be closed. Just a form to fill out on a website that I can not open and the chore of switching all my direct deposits to Bangkok Bank. Should be doable.

 

Ahh, I went back and re-read the original Schwab letter you posted in your OP...

 

It appears to have come from Schwab Bank, and not the main Schwab brokerage arm, and thus pertained only to your BANK account(s) with them, correct?  And not your Schwab brokerage accounts.

 

Although, if I got a letter like that from Schwab Bank, I'd be a bit nervous that they might eventually end up taking the same action on the brokerage side. Obviously, hope they don't for your sake.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/31/2022 at 10:18 AM, khaepmu said:

On another note, I have a Transfer on Death for my Thai wife with my American brokerage/mutual fund company. I called then recently to ask and clarify what steps my wife would have to take to have my money sent to her bank in Thailand in the event of my death. They explained in detail (death certificate translated to English etc.) Even though she has reasonable English language skills,  I asked them what my wife could do if she wasn't sure or had questions about the procedures and he told me they would arrange a Thai translator to assist my wife.

 

If you don't mind me asking, what FI made that very helpful offer of assistance to your Thai wife to handle POD issues in the event of your passing?

 

Even though my Thai wife is fluent in English, she's not fluent, at least not yet, in dealing with or even understanding U.S. financial institutions and all the processes that arise in a POD scenario.