Being taxed whilst waiting for work visa & permit. Fair?

[Deserted]

Hi there all. I have accepted a job in Thailand and been doing it for about 3 months but the school have asked me to get all my documents in order and sort the process out myself, which I have nearly done. I am working for them on a tourist visa, and should move onto the Non-Imm B in about one month but I have noticed they are taxing me whilst I am on a tourist visa. I told them this is not correct because I am not elligible to pay tax until I am on a work visa and have the work permit and that they have made a mistake is technically I cannot be classified as an employee whilst on a tourist visa. This is what I thought but who is in the right here, me or them?

[Doctor Tom]

3 minutes ago, Deserted said:

I have accepted a job in Thailand and been doing it for about 3 months

They are.  Your sentence above answers your question. You work, you pay tax. You are in effect being 'emergency taxed', as is done in the UK and US, before your documentation is in order. It should be rectified once that happens, but this is Thailand, so good luck with that. 

[Deserted]

I don't think its that simple. Technically I am not working legally, so how can I be officially taxed if I am on the wrong visa still?

[steve187]

33 minutes ago, Deserted said:

I don't think its that simple. Technically I am not working legally, so how can I be officially taxed if I am on the wrong visa still?

you are working illegally, you have no work permit

[Scott]

When we have employees who are in the process of getting a work permit, they are not taxed.  I am not sure of the paperwork involved now, but the Work Permit was necessary to have anyone legally listed as an employee.

 

I remember a few employees getting upset when they were fully legal because their salary went down slightly.  

 

[Doctor Tom]

47 minutes ago, Deserted said:

I don't think its that simple. Technically I am not working legally, so how can I be officially taxed if I am on the wrong visa still?

Its obvious.  They must protect themselves, they don't care if you get into trouble, but they do care if they do. The only person who could come out of this badly is you, for working illegally. 

[JonnyF]

Sounds like the school is aware that you are not paying tax (since you are working on a tourist visa), so they are reducing the salary they pay you by the amount you should be paying and keeping the difference themselves. They'd rather benefit from the situation than have you benefit from it. 

 

Since you are working without a work permit which is not technically legal, I wouldn't kick up too much of a fuss if I was you.

 

 

[Rimmer]

An inflammatory post has been removed

[userabcd]

100% fair. If you are working in Thailand and earning income, it should be taxed. At the end of the tax year you can submit your tax return detailing all income, taxes deducted and allowances etc...

 

And immigration residency, work permit have nothing to do with Revenue department, they deal with tax residency, income and tax.

[brewsterbudgen]

You're paying withholding tax (which is negligible) which all employers need to deduct/pay. The proper tax will be calculated at the end of the year.

[Deserted]

What is the % I should be deducted by?

[userabcd]

11 minutes ago, Deserted said:

What is the % I should be deducted by?

Depends.

 

Refer to Thai Revenue departments website:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

Also you could ask your employer to clarify breakdown of deductions from your salary income.

[Deserted]

Well, I asked them what my tax number is and they don't know. 

[Deserted]

Seems to me like they are fiddling the books. I get paid cash in hand 

[Deserted]

Yes, I know

 

[Deserted]

1 hour ago, userabcd said:

Depends.

 

Refer to Thai Revenue departments website:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

Also you could ask your employer to clarify breakdown of deductions from your salary income.

They took 3%

[puchooay]

2 hours ago, userabcd said:

100% fair. If you are working in Thailand and earning income, it should be taxed. At the end of the tax year you can submit your tax return detailing all income, taxes deducted and allowances etc...

 

And immigration residency, work permit have nothing to do with Revenue department, they deal with tax residency, income and tax.

Incorrect. You need a work permit to register at the tax office.

 

The school are deducting but not paying the money to the revenue department 

 

When the OP becomes legal he needs to go to "Sam pay gorn" and register. Show them his past payslips so they can cross reference. If they have received nothing from the school, which they probably haven't, the OP needs to go to the school, give them his tax number and insist they forward pastbtax payments.

[Deserted]

thank you.

[userabcd]

''Incorrect. You need a work permit to register at the tax office.''

 

Incorrect, there is no written law or requirement that a work permit is required to get a tax number.

 

All taxable income received in or earned in Thailand should be declared to RD within the tax rules for submission and payment and one can apply for a  tax number at RD giving the reasons why one needs a TIN. They will then issue one to pay the tax on savings, investments, CG, dividends, work income or claim a return of interest deducted etc...

 

The op can ask his employer for his registered tax number for which the company is deducting tax and paying over to RD on his behalf. If they do not have it then he could write them to issue it to him or he could visit the tax office with his employment contract and discuss with RD explaining the situation.

[puchooay]

1 hour ago, userabcd said:

''Incorrect. You need a work permit to register at the tax office.''

 

Incorrect, there is no written law or requirement that a work permit is required to get a tax number.

 

All taxable income received in or earned in Thailand should be declared to RD within the tax rules for submission and payment and one can apply for a  tax number at RD giving the reasons why one needs a TIN. They will then issue one to pay the tax on savings, investments, CG, dividends, work income or claim a return of interest deducted etc...

 

The op can ask his employer for his registered tax number for which the company is deducting tax and paying over to RD on his behalf. If they do not have it then he could write them to issue it to him or he could visit the tax office with his employment contract and discuss with RD explaining the situation.

Well. Speaking from experience, I needed a copy of my work contract and work permit in order to get registered at Sam Pa Gorn.

 

I also took a copy of my marriage certificate, my daughter's birth certificate and health/life insurance policies in order to obtain tax relief.

[DrJoy]

4 hours ago, Deserted said:

Well, I asked them what my tax number is and they don't know. 

A TIN is required to deposit tax online or at the RDs Local Office.

 

You are being scammed

[DrJoy]

17 minutes ago, puchooay said:

my daughter's birth certificate

If your daughter goes to school , show them the school fee deposit receipts.

 

You will get further relief in tax.

[eisfeld]

4 hours ago, Deserted said:

They took 3%

That seems to be the Withholding Tax then. It has nothing to do with taxing you as an employee. It's a tax they have to withhold for services rendered by a third party. https://thailand.acclime.com/guides/withholding-tax/

 

Legally they are required to do this. Your illegal working is another matter.

[Dogmatix]

I don't think there is much coordination between Labour Ministry, Immigration and Revenue Department on such matters. It's highly unlikely that paying tax would ever be cited as evidence to prosecute you for working illegally. 

 

My last company refused to pay my salary while waiting only 3 days for my work permit, due to their own incompetence, since I needed to avoid a gap in order to apply for citizenship.  They argued that they couldn't pay the salary or deduct tax with no WP, although I was obliged to work for those 3 days without pay.  Luckily the tiny gap was not an issue for citizenship. Prior to that when I was running a buisiness myself, we took advice from the Revenue Department on this issue as we regularly had expat employees working while waiting for their WPs.  They needed money to live on and had often quit a job with a competitior in Thaiand to join us and we were a competitive business and needed their work input. The Revenue Department advised that it was only illegal to work without WP but not illegal to receive income and, of course, income tax was payable on all income. 

 

For me what the Revenue Department advised verbally makes sense, i.e. pay the employee, so he has something to live on, and call it a living allowance, but he is not officially working.  I hired one guy who had already been busted for working without a WP in his previous job and sent to court where he was fined 2,000 but told by the judge he would get 6 months in prision, if caught again.  That was the reason we asked the RD for advice as we and the employee were concerned about his situation. In the end we paid him but we worked from home while waiting for the WP and came in to have lunch with us and talk about work. I think my more recent employee, owned and managed by extremely tight fisted Thai Chinese was just looking for an excuse to avoid paying even tiny amounts of money. 

[n00dle]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:53 AM, Doctor Tom said:

Its obvious.  They must protect themselves, they don't care if you get into trouble, but they do care if they do. The only person who could come out of this badly is you, for working illegally. 

they could be skimming the tax, or they could be acting in earnest. its not obvious.

[brewsterbudgen]

2 hours ago, n00dle said:

they could be skimming the tax, or they could be acting in earnest. its not obvious.

Sorry, but it is obvious.  As has been explained above (by @eisfeld) it's called 'withholding tax'.  

[CharlieKo]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:04 AM, Deserted said:

I don't think its that simple. Technically I am not working legally, so how can I be officially taxed if I am on the wrong visa still?

On the other hand you could be arrested for working on a tourist Visa!

[Deserted]

Highly unlikely, there are so many at it similarly.

[SuperSilverHaze]

You are working you must pay tax surely you understand this.

 

I'd be more concerned about being overtaxed which I'm guessing you are. Usually the way this goes is they are deducting tax but it's going into someone's pocket. You'll have to pay again lol. Have a tax id? No? You're not paying taxes

 

Three months no wp? Then telling you to sort it?! I'd be gone end of term no question about it. Not your job to sort Thai government paperwork.

[SuperSilverHaze]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:29 PM, Deserted said:

Seems to me like they are fiddling the books. I get paid cash in hand 

Start looking for another job. Don't let them work permit you. You don't need such headaches