How to make (IKEA) furniture sturdier?

[OneMoreFarang]

I want to install an IKEA kitchen. I bought already a cabinet for the sink and a few other parts to be able to check exactly where to install them. Under my sink is the wastewater pipe trough the floor. And some freshwater connections and a water heater are installed on the wall behind the cabinet.

For that reason, I have to cut a sizable hole in the bottom of the cabinet and remove the thin back side completely or put a couple of holes in it.

For me it seems if the cabinets are complete (without holes) then the included fasteners are just about good enough to hold it together.

But with big holes that is a problem.

For that reason I like to add some stabilizing elements like maybe a few extra screws from the side wall to the bottom plate. And maybe some wood supports in the back where there is space.

 

I think about using HMR, High Moisture Resistance board for the supports.

And obviously I need the correct screws for that material.

 

In your opinion, is HMR, maybe 18mm thick, a good idea? Or what is better?

And which screws are best? Name? Size?

I have an idea about the screws. But there are lot of screws which look similar. Some are better for this, and some are better for that. Some require a pilot holes, others not.

 

Here are lots of screws including Tapping Screws, Chipboard Screws, and others.

Screws, Nuts | HomePro Shopping Online

 

Here is a sample for HMR

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/hmr-40x80-18-mdf-4080-i1758922010-s5093920103.html

 

I have all the necessary tools.

Suggestions?

[simon43]

Some 45 years ago, I used to work at MFI, the flat-pack furniture store in the UK.  We were provided with a box of special accessories to ensure that the furniture was stable and strong when we assembled the store models.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

50 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I want to install an IKEA kitchen. I bought already a cabinet for the sink and a few other parts to be able to check exactly where to install them. Under my sink is the wastewater pipe trough the floor. And some freshwater connections and a water heater are installed on the wall behind the cabinet.

For that reason, I have to cut a sizable hole in the bottom of the cabinet and remove the thin back side completely or put a couple of holes in it.

For me it seems if the cabinets are complete (without holes) then the included fasteners are just about good enough to hold it together.

But with big holes that is a problem.

For that reason I like to add some stabilizing elements like maybe a few extra screws from the side wall to the bottom plate. And maybe some wood supports in the back where there is space.

Likely the IKEA cabinet is perfectly fit for purpose, but only just, as IKEA makes its profit by not over engineering the items, so take our panels or cut holes in the wrong places and the structural integrity is probably lost.

 

MDF of any kind is a disaster if it gets wet MR-MDF is a little better but is not a material I would use in a potentially wet area. For that I would use plywood.

 

You can cut holes in panels and have them maintain structural integrity if you know exactly what you are doing.

 

For wood screws in man made boards always drill a pilot hole. The screws to use are these

or these

 

FWIW neither of these are very good on the chipboard that IKEA uses, or on MDF

[sometimewoodworker]

48 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Suggestions?

More information including pictures will get an even more comprehensive answer 

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

More information including pictures will get an even more comprehensive answer 

I still have to cut the holes and decide where to put the water heater.

I thought I ask early to know what to do when I need it.

Pictures later...

[scubascuba3]

i have an IKEA kitchen, no additional support required. Big hole for the sink, big hole in cabinet for fuse box

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

i have an IKEA kitchen, no additional support required. Big hole for the sink, big hole in cabinet for fuse box

Thanks, yes, I think normally they do the job. But sometimes a little more rigidity won't hurt.

This video inspired me:

 

 

[Srikcir]

It seems to me that IKEA builds things to be disassembled. If you want stronger bonds in addition metal fastners, use a wood glue such as for example Titebond, Gorilla wood Glue or Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue in addition to metal fastners.

[yankyoakum]

Sounds like you didn't have to assemble, everything we got over the years if we didn't "glue and screw" with contact cement I ended up taking it back apart and applying glue to all screw holes and seams where things butted together using a Q tip as brush/applicator. Once the piece was glued and screwed they rarely if ever come apart.....On making holes for pipes and other thing in back, learned long ago to stuff steel wool around the pipes. Keeps rats and mice from coming in as they refuse to touch steel wool. Hard to find here and have been using the stainless scrubby pads which seem to work real well.

[Dante99]

use real wood

[OneMoreFarang]

25 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

use real wood

Real wood sounds good and looks good. But real wood has lots of disadvantages. I.e. it moves and changes its size depending on the temperature and moisture. 

If your comment is about having an extra piece of real wood to stabilize a certain area, then that might make sense - I don't know.

But I will certainly not get everything in real wood. There is a reason, and not just cost, why this is often not used.

[kingstonkid]

In Canada I rented a lot of units and used the cheapest

Materials when I could

Plywood and 1x1 are your best things to strengthen integrity.  All you have to do to waterproof is paint the plywood.  I would use wood glue and screws to connect.  I would also not trust those stupid stick male in female turn connector 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

It seems to me that IKEA builds things to be disassembled.

Absolutely not, some joints can have inserts that are designed for that but chipboard and MDF will quickly strip out the thread cut by fasteners.

So while you may be able to breakdown the items once or twice the fasteners will get progressively looser unless you are remarkably lucky.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

i have an IKEA kitchen, no additional support required. Big hole for the sink, big hole in cabinet for fuse box

So you either knew what you were doing or got lucky ???? 

[unheard]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Real wood sounds good and looks good. But real wood has lots of disadvantages. I.e. it moves and changes its size depending on the temperature and moisture.

Plywood is much more stable compared to solid wood and would be a much better choice of material over particle board for humid environments.

[OneMoreFarang]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

I think when cabinets are surrounded by other cabinets then they probably don't need extra strengthening - they are screwed to the cabinets left and right and they hang on the wall.

With the most outer cabinets left and right let's see when I install them.

I guess I will at least strengthen the sink cabinet with a big hole in the bottom and likely no back wall.

 

Maybe one repeated question:

Which screws are best suitable for HMR and chipboard (I think that is what the IKEA material is called).

What is the name of that screw type?

What is the best screw size if I screw into 20mm wide material? I.e. screw a side wall into the bottom plate.

 

[Grusa]

Anything you do that exposes raw chipboard or mdf, waterproof it by sealing with aluminium tape. Also all the mating joins between units, back and bottom. use silicone sealant around all internal joints of the sink cabinet, especially the bottom panel and at least 2" up the back panel........you WILL have leaks which will destroy the finish or the cabinet if you don't. If you have a built in dishwasher, use aluminium tape on the cabinet sides and front edges of the adjoining units, and underneath the worktop....otherwise splashes and steam will make the edges swell.

 

Instead of the stupid legs and kickboards Ikea supply, which your maid will ruin, I used 9mm foam concrete blocks on their sides. This allowed for wiring and plumbing in a space between blocks. Use a bituminous damp barrier on top. The blocks are fixed to the tiled floor with "no more nails" type adhesive (easier to remove and less likely to slip than cement) and the cabinet bottom similarly fixed on top. The front of the blocks is tiled, giving a waterproof, durable and attractive finish...and cheaper, too!

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Which screws are best suitable for HMR and chipboard (I think that is what the IKEA material is called).

It is unlikely that IKEA is using MR-MDF the English name for the material you have found known as HMR. The screws that are correct for chipboard are amazingly called chipboard screws!

 

as they are a course thread they will work for MDF of and verity 

 

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

What is the best screw size if I screw into 20mm wide material? I.e. screw a side wall into the bottom plate.

2mm ~ 5mm less than the total thickness that you are joining, this includes the head if using Countersunk screws but not if you are using Roundhead ones.

 

Don't forget the pilot hole, as if you don’t you will split the material.

 

you will be able to use the same screws on the wood battens you use for re enforcement.

[chickenslegs]

Metal corner brackets and/or plates can help with rigidity if you are removing the whole back panel.

[Tropposurfer]

Ikea laminated - especially kitchen cupboard furniture, is usually made from a number of composite materials.

 

It can be made of solid timber sheeting or plywood's (our kitchen is all waterproof ply).

 

Primarily these composites, in Aussie call them 'particle-board', are compressed fibres mixed with glues.

 

The particles can be see easily when cutting or breaking a sheet of this @ about 10 to 15 mm long. 'MDF' which is also a particle-type board too but of a much finer particle size (its basically a super thick and highly compressed cardboard - when power-sawn or routed cuts very smoothly - light brown colour).

I understand folks gotta use particle-board materials for making cupboards because they're cheap and for colder less humid climates they work well for a long time.

But in LOS because we have very high almost constant humidity particleboard furniture isn't a good long term thing.

 

The high humidity in LOS and any water that can ingress between the 'Melamine' laminate covering on the board will see the board soak up any moisture, begin to swell, and the board crumble and fall apart which means the death of the entire unit. This will definitely accelerate when the board is cut post-manufacture and assembly.

 

To your question of reinforcing.

 

For the carcass joints use wood PVC glue, add screws.

For the visible joints you can buy a drill-bit that will countersink a 'well' when you pre drill for the screws. This well will receive the screw and a plastic covering plug.

 

To reinforce the backing sheet which usually is made of the fine MDF material.

You could add a sheet of plywood and simply glue and screw to the back sheet and the cupboard carcass (simply cut the ply larger to overlap the edges of the carcass, glue, and screw along these edges) - the ply has far strong linear strength and will really solidify the backboard. Add sealer, and slap a coat of paint on top.

 

If you haven't assembled the unit as yet or can remove the backboard it would be easier and give a stronger bond to lay the backboard down onto a sheet of plywood glue together, add weights on top, dry, then cut out the holes then reattach to the cupboard.

I'd do my best to seal the cuts you have made through the MDF backing-board with a sealer and some waterproof paint - to deter the slow ingress of humidity-moisture.

 

Remember these particle boards are easy to split and in narrow thickness areas you might be advised to drill a pilot hole first as well as countersinking the hole as the screw head will spread and lost likely split the particleboard giving a bulge in the surface of the sheet.

 

 

 

[Dante99]

23 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 But real wood has lots of disadvantages. I.e. it moves and changes its size depending on the temperature and moisture.

How does it move?

 

Sounds like you have not looked into quality dried wood that has been finished with a good sealer.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Dante99 said:

How does it move?

 

Sounds like you have not looked into quality dried wood that has been finished with a good sealer.

All wood moves if the humidity changes. It doesn’t matter the quality of the wood or how well it has been finished, though the finish can slow the wood movement down. There are tables that tell you how much movement, this is one for sealed wood,

look hard enough and you will find the information for the commonly used woods

 

There are 2 exceptions to this, though the first isn’t really an exception. First if you encase the wood In resin (embedded in epoxy) do the humidity can’t reach it. The other is thermally modified wood, cook it long enough and hot enough and then the humidity doesn’t matter, this is a very recent invention and is difficult to find and expensive to do in larger sizes.

 

Wood movement is well known, though some information has been forgotten in recent times (last 50 to 120 years), and furniture is designed around the fact. The way the board is cut has a major impact on the amount of movement.

 

The reason that manufactured boards have virtually zero movement is that the wood making them is either too small (MDF, chipboard, OSB etc.) or the stresses are balanced and restricted by glue (plywood, blockboard) the intermediates are the boards constructed from very short boards like rubber wood.

 

FWIW MDF is actually compressed sawdust rather than cardboard and the apparent splitting if layers is due to the compression factors. Also if you get a smooth finish when cutting or routing it’s more likely to be MR-MDF that has a higher percentage of glue in it. Regular MDF When cross cut it leaves a fuzzy edge.

[OneMoreFarang]

5 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

The high humidity in LOS and any water that can ingress between the 'Melamine' laminate covering on the board will see the board soak up any moisture, begin to swell, and the board crumble and fall apart which means the death of the entire unit. This will definitely accelerate when the board is cut post-manufacture and assembly.

Thanks for all your details, I appreciate it.

 

About the quality and longlivity: IKEA gives on some parts, i.e. METOD kitchen, 25 years warranty. So I guess if the cabinets fall apart in 20 years, I will get new once from IKEA. ???? 

[OneMoreFarang]

3 hours ago, Dante99 said:

How does it move?

 

Sounds like you have not looked into quality dried wood that has been finished with a good sealer.

I read a big part of a book about wood working and especially one chapter about different kinds of wood (in a foreign language).

Maybe my term "move" is incorrect. But it seems natural wood gets longer or shorter in different directions depending on heat and moisture. It seems that is one of the reasons why something like MDF and HMR and other versions are popular with wood workers.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I read a big part of a book about wood working and especially one chapter about different kinds of wood (in a foreign language).

Maybe my term "move" is incorrect. But it seems natural wood gets longer or shorter in different directions depending on heat and moisture. It seems that is one of the reasons why something like MDF and HMR and other versions are popular with wood workers.

You probably misunderstood the exact meaning of wood moving. 
There is virtually no movement in length no matter what changes.

Heat makes virtually zero difference until you reach between 420k to over 570k when the structural integrity begins to degrade 

The grain orientation is the big factor the closer to 90 degrees on the face the less the piece will move in width. So conversely the closer to zero the greater the movement.

 

While some woodworking may take advantage of the lack of movement with manufactured material lack of movement is not often of much, to any, concern. The reason for compressed sawdust being popular are, among others, it’s consistent structure, its availability, its weight, that its available in multiple thicknesses, that it’s cheap. While I have a few sheets in stock it’s probably less than 5% of my stock and is seldom my first choice as it is quite fragile. Used in the correct places it’s useful, so if you design the pieces for it, it’s going to work well.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

5 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You probably misunderstood the exact meaning of wood moving. 
There is virtually no movement in length no matter what changes.

Heat makes virtually zero difference until you reach between 420k to over 570k when the structural integrity begins to degrade 

The grain orientation is the big factor the closer to 90 degrees on the face the less the piece will move in width. So conversely the closer to zero the greater the movement.

 

While some woodworking may take advantage of the lack of movement with manufactured material lack of movement is not often of much, to any, concern. The reason for compressed sawdust being popular are, among others, it’s consistent structure, its availability, its weight, that its available in multiple thicknesses, that it’s cheap. While I have a few sheets in stock it’s probably less than 5% of my stock and is seldom my first choice as it is quite fragile. Used in the correct places it’s useful, so if you design the pieces for it, it’s going to work well.

 

 

Thanks for the info.

Maybe you can explain the following: It seems many door close sometimes without problems, and then in another season with different temperature and humidity they don't close properly. 

As far as I see that problem exists in central European climate, in Thai tropical climate, etc.

If the material doesn't "move", get smaller, larger, what causes this problem? 

[sometimewoodworker]

15 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Maybe you can explain the following: It seems many door close sometimes without problems, and then in another season with different temperature and humidity they don't close properly. 

what causes this problem? 

The doors being fitted in the wrong season with incorrect reveals. 
 

Fit them when the humidity has been consistently under 40% with tight reveals and you won’t be able to open them after a couple of weeks of the rainy season.

 

My doors, I fitted them myself, don’t stick as I did them in the rainy season.

[OneMoreFarang]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The doors being fitted in the wrong season with incorrect reveals. 
 

Fit them when the humidity has been consistently under 40% with tight reveals and you won’t be able to open them after a couple of weeks of the rainy season.

 

My doors, I fitted them myself, don’t stick as I did them in the rainy season.

My brand new custom made doors and door frames were installed last month. I guess in a few months I will see if there is a problem. Luckily I have one year warranty from the contractor. 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

My brand new custom made doors and door frames were installed last month. I guess in a few months I will see if there is a problem. Luckily I have one year warranty from the contractor. 

It’s usually reasonably easy to lop off a few mm so they fit well. Though you do need to make sure that you put the correct angle on the door, probably about 88 degrees, and of course on the correct side as well. 
 

Don’t forget that all 6 faces need finishing.

 

Also you need a competent chippy to do the job, but since fitting doors is hardly rocket science you have a good shot at that.

[3NUMBAS]

you cant it likes fords theyre not meant to last