"Death Highway" again - Poh Teck Tung driver dead, many injuries as two pick-ups collide in NE

[kwilco]

45 minutes ago, Tubulat said:

It's true, I talk about 10 years ago a car repair shop show me the construction from a Honda Civic and told me the differents is between cars manufactured for domestic other than for export.

Well - there are specs different for cars in all countries - a lot depends on local laws but you still don't say what you are comparing to and you have chosen one model of car.

In fact Thailand often exceeds the USA for pickup ownership - these vehicles are still inherently more dangerous than sedans,

 

, the cars manufactured in Thailand have a much lesser crumple zone." - 

 

this is simply not accurate - you have to compare the same vehicles not the name. My UK Honda Civic was a UK built hatch the Thai model with the same name and year was a 3 box model - it had a trunk for a start.

Edited February 22, 2023 by kwilco

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Have you seen these people drive? Your road stands no chance.

There you go "these people' - the purely racist and erroneous assumption. I was talking about - why is it that Westerners assume tey are so better at driving than Thai people? In fact they are so bad at driving on Thai roads they spend most of their time concocting vitriolic nonsense about other road users, yet claim they themselves are superb drivers. They have nothing to back this up except their own prejudices and confirmation bias

[NorthernRyland]

Just now, kwilco said:

There you go "these people' - the purely racist and erroneous assumption. I was talking about - why is it that Westerners assume tey are so better at driving than Thai people?

LOL. Are you serious?

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, hotchilli said:

It's not the road, it's the lunatic drivers.

this is an inaccurate and archaic approach to road  safety.

Thailand and the UK have almost the same number of reported crashes, yet the death rate in Thailand is 12times that of the UK - can you give a scientific or evidence-based explanation to tat?

[kwilco]

23 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

LOL. Are you serious?

 -People are bad drivers all over the world - to suggest that one kind of person are bad drivers is judging by race. Racial slurs are characterised by various cliches - wild generalisations in the third person plural is one of them. The next cliche is misuse of the word "culture" to justify racist view

People who take on these views are failing to understand even the basics of road safety, and rather than understanding the problem they just resort to racial generalisations about Thai people - basically its insulting Thai people when the real responsibility - public health - rests with successive governments

Edited February 22, 2023 by kwilco

[NorthernRyland]

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 -People are bad drivers all over the world - to suggest that one kind of person are bad drivers is judging by race. Racial slurs are characterised by various cliches - wild generalisations in the third person plural is one of them. The next cliche is misuse of the word "culture" to justify racist view

People who take on these views are failing to understand even the basics of road safety, and rather than understanding the problem they just resort to racial generalisations about Thai people - basically its insulting Thai people when the real responsibility - public health rests with successive governments

Yeah but I wasn't a racist until I started driving in Thailand. ????

 

Watch a few of these videos and see if you notice any patterns.

 

 

[Tropposurfer]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

This road is typical of the poor design of Thai roads and no wonder there are so many crashes.

One of the key elements here is the fact that vehicle crossed the central reservation.

A good road is designed so this CAN'T  happen...once it does the chances of fatalities soar.

Another problem is what is in the middle and on the sides of the road.... this has a profound effect on the damage I curred by a vehicle.

Remember too that in a 4 wheeled private vehicle inThailand the death rate is slightly lower than in the USA.

Agree with you kwilco.

The road design and construction standards are quite atrocious here. 

Properly safety-barrier dual carriageways are essential and would reduce the collateral damage and deaths from oncoming traffic. Well designed road-skirts to bleed of speed of vehicles leaving the roadways would also help.

 

The issues with level transitions at bridged overpasses and connecting panels of concrete surfacing sees cars weighting and unweighting violently. At anything bit slow speeds this is a terrible accident causer here i.e. cars launching landing and loosing control. Never seen such shocking contouring of road surfaces anywhere else in my life. Bad surfaces yes, but such shocking topography/contouring never!

Add to this the roadside obstacles you refer to, insane overloading, unroadworthy mod's to vehicles, shocking often non-existent vehicle maintenance, unsafe speeds for road conditions, zero Police radar deterrence, almost zero alcohol and drug roadside testing, very, very poor driving skills, terrible road skill/driving education, all-but zero road safety education and national education programs, belly's full of Khao Lao,

No concept of rest-stops on long trips and the tens of thousands killed is what happens.

I/we never drive long distance in LOS ever! Wish we could as it would be wonderful to cruise and enjoy the sights and local joys but with the carnage on the roads ... NO WAY!

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Tropposurfer

[kwilco]

14 minutes ago, Tropposurfer said:

Agree with you kwilco.

The road design and construction standards are quite atrocious here. 

Properly safety-barrier dual carriageways are essential and would reduce the collateral damage and deaths from oncoming traffic. Well designed road-skirts to bleed of speed of vehicles leaving the roadways would also help.

 

The issues with level transitions at bridged overpasses and connecting panels of concrete surfacing sees cars weighting and unweighting violently. At anything bit slow speeds this is a terrible accident causer here i.e. cars launching landing and loosing control. Never seen such shocking contouring of road surfaces anywhere else in my life. Bad surfaces yes, but such shocking topography/contouring never!

Add to this the roadside obstacles you refer to, insane overloading, unroadworthy mod's to vehicles, shocking often non-existent vehicle maintenance, unsafe speeds for road conditions, zero Police radar deterrence, almost zero alcohol and drug roadside testing, very, very poor driving skills, terrible road skill/driving education, all-but zero road safety education and national education programs, belly's full of Khao Lao,

No concept of rest-stops on long trips and the tens of thousands killed is what happens.

I/we never drive long distance in LOS ever! Wish we could as it would be wonderful to cruise and enjoy the sights and local joys but with the carnage on the roads ... NO WAY!

Yes – what you have outlined, I’ve mentioned before – there is a problem with some foreign drivers in that they see a big, wide new road and think Thai roads are wonderful, but they never consider the design and engineering.

 

There are national and international organisations that hope to promote road safety in Thailand but mostly their advice falls on deaf ears the 5 main pillars a can be summed up as below – in fact you have covered just about all of them in your post.. The 5 main pillars of the  Safe System can be defines as follows: - The 5 “E”s of road safety.

For over 3 decades Thailand has had various “Road Safety Action Plans” and has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (with little effect) ... but without them, Road Safety in Thailand is doomed to stagnate.

 

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

 

1. Education

This is fairly self-explanatory - people need to be told/shown how to drive and given the “tools” to share the road with other users – This goes way beyond a solitary driving test when people first start driving. UK had several government TV campaigns in the 60s and 70s. Clever well thought out ads with a bit of humour that weren’t condescending and helped to establish the country as a safe place to drive. (Do you remember the elephant in the fog?). Education of drivers continues throughout their driving life.

The first people to educate in Thailand would be the police.

 

2. Enforcement

Again self-explanatory - but Thailand has the added problem of ingrained corruption, graft and bribery which impedes this, no matter how many laws are passed. The laws need to be reasonable applicable and equitably enforced too. The police and courts need to be trained to deal with it

 

3. Engineering: - most critics of (Thai) road safety usually ignore this aspect of road safety. It falls into 2 categories ….

 

A - Vehicle engineering - Safer car design and engineering: - car safety is both “passive” (seat belts, airbags and construction etc.) and “Active” (braking steering, handling, traction control etc.) these two are really interdependent now with so much computerised and hi-tech features on modern vehicles.[1]

·      Anti-locking brakes (ABS)

·      Side impact bars

·      AVCSS – “Advanced Vehicle Control and Safety Systems"

·      Electronic stability control (ESC)

·      Traction control

·      Air-bags

·      More reliable engine, tyres and components

·      Vehicle dynamics in general (they vary from UK and Thailand)

 

Of course, roadworthiness checks are vital - but totally unenforced in Thailand.

 

  B - Road Engineering -

The design and construction on the roads, bridges, junctions, road surface, camber, drainage etc.

·      The use of barriers and median (e.g. Armco), the removal of roadside hazards - e.g. trees or boulders on the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision

·      Traffic - the use of lines, signs, bollards etc. etc. to dictate how and where the traffic flows and at what speed - virtually non-excitant in Thailand and seldom noticed by drivers in countries that make good use of it.

·      Better infrastructure and engineering

·      Better road surfaces

·      Better signage

·      More forgiving

·      Traffic calming

·      Shared space - keeping various road users apart is key to safety in some situations - if they are separated they can’t collide.

 

Like so many things on the roads in Thailand, the only reason that U-Turns happen is because the roads ALLOW it.... this is a design and engineering problem (and a cost reduction exercise),  not so much a driver problem.

 

4. Emergency

 

- What happens in the event of injury... this is a major factor in who lives or dies.

It has been well documented that the time between accident and getting treatment is crucial in the survival of RTI victims.

Treatment on the scene and reducing the time it takes to get the patient to hospital is vital. Thailand still has NO EFFECTIVE UNIVERSAL EMERGENCY SERVICE!! Ambulances have no standard equipment levels and what comes to your aid at an accident could be anything from a boy-racer pickup truck through van to a partially equipped ambulance. Paramedics are seldom fully trained.

 

5. Evaluation

 

- How do we ascertain if measures are effective and what new ideas can be implemented.

Most governments have agencies of some sort that after engaging any road scheme, whether it is construction or a safety campaign, review in detail every aspect of that project; effects on local population, environment, accident statistics etc. etc. Statistics are gathered and monitored and appropriate action taken. - Whereas Thailand may nominally have such bodies their effectiveness is just about zero. Road safety in Thailand is left largely to ill-thought out, baseless pronouncements made by members of the government with little better to do. Statistics collected in Thailand are incomplete, amateurish and don’t eve correlate with international conventions.

 

PS – I have driven ALL over Thailand in 2 successive pickup trucks for nearly 20 years. Plus a few year/miles in rented vehicles and motorcycles. I’ve also driven all over Laos and a bit in Malaysia.

 

[1] Active safety features are designed to prevent collisions and accidents from happening. Passive safety features, meanwhile, are meant to mitigate the damage of a collision that is unavoidable.     

https://www.toyotaoflancaster.com/blog/active-safety-features-vs-passive-safety-features/

https://carbiketech.com/active-safety-passive-safety/

 

[Bangkok Barry]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

This road is typical of the poor design of Thai roads and no wonder there are so many crashes.

One of the key elements here is the fact that vehicle crossed the central reservation.

A good road is designed so this CAN'T  happen...once it does the chances of fatalities soar.

Another problem is what is in the middle and on the sides of the road.... this has a profound effect on the damage I curred by a vehicle.

Remember too that in a 4 wheeled private vehicle inThailand the death rate is slightly lower than in the USA.

Then how do you explain the fact that most drivers manage to negotiate the roads without crashing into others. It has nothing to do with road design, but everything to do with road users. Most can do it safely, some can't.

 

Reservations are designed to avoid cars driving into cars coming from the other direction. That is their only purpose (although that then leads to the deadly U-turns). But Thai drivers need more than the safety central reservation to avoid hitting others. High fences might help, but even then I had a car fly through the top of a tree opposite my house. Thai drivers are very inventive and can defy the laws of physics.
 

[digger70]

It all comes down to common sense , There's none .

This won't change in a hurry, like about 100 yrs.

[kwilco]

49 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Then how do you explain the fact that most drivers manage to negotiate the roads without crashing into others. It has nothing to do with road design, but everything to do with road users. Most can do it safely, some can't.

 

Reservations are designed to avoid cars driving into cars coming from the other direction. That is their only purpose (although that then leads to the deadly U-turns). But Thai drivers need more than the safety central reservation to avoid hitting others. High fences might help, but even then I had a car fly through the top of a tree opposite my house. Thai drivers are very inventive and can defy the laws of physics.
 

Then how do you explain the fact that most drivers manage to negotiate the roads without crashing into others” –

 

this is a constant factor all over the world. As I pointed out the UK has the about the same number of daily collisions as in Thailand.

 

 

“Reservations are designed to avoid cars driving into cars coming from the other direction” –

 

Nowadays, almost ALL countries build new roads with dual carriageways – the reason as you say is to prevent oncoming vehicles colliding with each other, usually after a vehicle has lost control.

Central reservations have international design conventions – this is to prevent those collisions and excessive harm to vehicle occupants

The most common form is the Armco barrier – on impact with a vehicle it acts like a huge stretchy band – it absorbs the impact of the vehicle and prevents it from entering oncoming traffic. These barriers need to be fitted at the correct height and rooted and joined correctly. Meanwhile the central reservation has to be clear of any obstacles that might bring a vehicle to rest too abruptly – the most obvious being a tree or concrete street furniture. In some countries the preferred central barrier is a shaped concrete device – these can be effective in certain circumstances as they deflect vehicles back onto their own lane but they don’t have the same shock absorption qualities.

 

At present Thailand is fitting Armco on some roads, but how well fitted they are, I can’t tell – You’d have to measure the height and depth of the anchoring.

 

High fences are unlikely to prove effective as the stresses and strains would require a very sturdy structure taking up a huge amount of space.– a correctly fitted Armco can easily restrain a loaded 108 wheeler.

 

You also mention two glaring examples of bad road design.

Firstly U-turns – which are a total design failure as it encourages slow vehicles in the outside lanes of high-speed highways or even the blocking of multiple lanes by turning heavy vehicle. In recent years Thailand has limited the numbers of entrances and exits on some major roads but then install U-turns to allow access to other points along the road – the new U-turns involve a left hand exit and a bridge which is safer than the old U-turns. However any U-turn is just cheap alternatives to a proper light controlled roundabout system

 

 

“even then I had a car fly through the top of a tree opposite my house. Thai drivers are very inventive and can defy the laws of physics.” – No they can’t it is precisely an understanding of te laws of physics that can reduce the death rate on Thai roads.

 

For a car to fly through the air it requires a major failure in road safety design  quite apart from how it left the road you point out is was stopped by a tree – one of the items that need to be closely monitored on Thai roads.

Of course some of the other 5 Es would help with this too.. I have had an oncoming car fly over the central barrier and my car on a motorway – it touched the roof/tailgate of my car before ploughing into the traffic behind me – this was on the M1 motorway in the UK.  You will never stop all collisions but you can reduce injuries and fatalities.

In fact many countries in Northern Europe have set their sights on the “Zero” option – that’s no deaths – not necessarily no collisions.

 

“But Thai drivers need more than the safety central reservation to avoid hitting others”- yet another racist generalisation that shows little understanding of true road safety.

[kwilco]

10 minutes ago, digger70 said:

to common sense

If you just take time to think about it - there is no such thing a "common" sense - it's just your way of seeing the world without thinking too much. it just boils down to a wild anti-Thai generalisation.

Edited February 22, 2023 by kwilco

[Bangkok Barry]

5 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Then how do you explain the fact that most drivers manage to negotiate the roads without crashing into others” –

 

this is a constant factor all over the world. As I pointed out the UK has the about the same number of daily collisions as in Thailand.

 

 

“Reservations are designed to avoid cars driving into cars coming from the other direction” –

 

Nowadays, almost ALL countries build new roads with dual carriageways – the reason as you say is to prevent oncoming vehicles colliding with each other, usually after a vehicle has lost control.

Central reservations have international design conventions – this is to prevent those collisions and excessive harm to vehicle occupants

The most common form is the Armco barrier – on impact with a vehicle it acts like a huge stretchy band – it absorbs the impact of the vehicle and prevents it from entering oncoming traffic. These barriers need to be fitted at the correct height and rooted and joined correctly. Meanwhile the central reservation has to be clear of any obstacles that might bring a vehicle to rest too abruptly – the most obvious being a tree or concrete street furniture. In some countries the preferred central barrier is a shaped concrete device – these can be effective in certain circumstances as they deflect vehicles back onto their own lane but they don’t have the same shock absorption qualities.

 

At present Thailand is fitting Armco on some roads, but how well fitted they are, I can’t tell – You’d have to measure the height and depth of the anchoring.

 

High fences are unlikely to prove effective as the stresses and strains would require a very sturdy structure taking up a huge amount of space.– a correctly fitted Armco can easily restrain a loaded 108 wheeler.

 

You also mention two glaring examples of bad road design.

Firstly U-turns – which are a total design failure as it encourages slow vehicles in the outside lanes of high-speed highways or even the blocking of multiple lanes by turning heavy vehicle. In recent years Thailand has limited the numbers of entrances and exits on some major roads but then install U-turns to allow access to other points along the road – the new U-turns involve a left hand exit and a bridge which is safer than the old U-turns. However any U-turn is just cheap alternatives to a proper light controlled roundabout system

 

 

“even then I had a car fly through the top of a tree opposite my house. Thai drivers are very inventive and can defy the laws of physics.” – No they can’t it is precisely an understanding of te laws of physics that can reduce the death rate on Thai roads.

 

For a car to fly through the air it requires a major failure in road safety design  quite apart from how it left the road you point out is was stopped by a tree – one of the items that need to be closely monitored on Thai roads.

Of course some of the other 5 Es would help with this too.. I have had an oncoming car fly over the central barrier and my car on a motorway – it touched the roof/tailgate of my car before ploughing into the traffic behind me – this was on the M1 motorway in the UK.  You will never stop all collisions but you can reduce injuries and fatalities.

In fact many countries in Northern Europe have set their sights on the “Zero” option – that’s no deaths – not necessarily no collisions.

 

“But Thai drivers need more than the safety central reservation to avoid hitting others”- yet another racist generalisation that shows little understanding of true road safety.

Of course accidents happen everywhere. But I believe I'm right in saying that Thailand has 10x the number of road deaths as the UK as Thailand, with the same population numbers. That's a fact and has nothing to do with racism. I do acknowledge, though, that the majority of road deaths in Thailand involve motorcyclists.

 

And that leads to another way of reducing road deaths in Thailand. You don't think that having a proper driving test might help? I still blame the drivers who have no need to demonstrate an ability to drive before getting a license. And motorcyclists who don't have the common sense to drive safely. And that isn't racism. It's the culture of not being able to anticipate the consequences of their actions, a result of being discouraged from thinking while in school, only repeating what thewy are told without question.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Of course accidents happen everywhere. But I believe I'm right in saying that Thailand has 10x the number of road deaths as the UK as Thailand, with the same population numbers. That's a fact and has nothing to do with racism. I do acknowledge, though, that the majority of road deaths in Thailand involve motorcyclists.

 

And that leads to another way of reducing road deaths in Thailand. You don't think that having a proper driving test might help? I still blame the drivers who have no need to demonstrate an ability to drive before getting a license. And motorcyclists who don't have the common sense to drive safely. And that isn't racism. It's the culture of not being able to anticipate the consequences of their actions, a result of being discouraged from thinking while in school, only repeating what thewy are told without question.

You compare UK and Thai road deaths and then M/Cs and Driving tests.

 

I have actually covered all this before – firstly be aware of the 5 Es –

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

I’ve set them out above

 

Firstly UK and Thailand – UK and Thailand have about the SAME number of collisions yet the deaths are different – between 10 and 12 times more in Thailand – so “avoiding each other is not the problem – its more or less the same. So you are assuming a generalisation about Thai drivers that is incorrect – not based on the evidence but based on prejudice.

 

Motorcyclists – account for a huge proportion of road deaths in Thailand between 73 and 80% depending on where you look – In fact the 80% probably  represents “vulnerable” road users – this is a category that includes motorcyclists but also other road users – pedestrians cyclists and a few more. Half of the traffic on Thai roads is on 2 wheels and the other half is one vehicles that can inflict a lot of damage to vulnerable motorists this is a very dangerous combination and no effort is made to separate them.

 – however how and why is not simple – for instance no work is done to improve visibility of motorcyclist  e.g. at junctions or obscured by advertising billboards. E for enforcement would also increase the number wearing appropriate crash helmets – which prevent only a certain amount of head injuries but a significant number. So it would make sense for the authorities to address the vulnerability of motorcyclists – one glaring fault is the using of road boarders as “bike lanes” – they are way too narrow for that and also inconsistent. I most EU v=countries they have “think bike” notices and campaigns. You might notice how 4-wheeled vehicles in Thailand make no effort to give space when they pass a motorcycle – in the EU they are respect as another vehicle – this comes under E for education.

 

 

Then you mention rod tests – these are a bit of a red herring – most westerners took totally laughable road tests – after they pass they believe they then learn by “experience” – in reality they just pick up more bad habits.

(Belgium had no driving test until the 1970s and some States in the US allowed children as young as 14 to drive cars – and in Italy -driving tests were just down to corruption – a member of my family went for a test and the Italian instructor watched her start the car and “go on then! Get out! I can see you can =drive! And handed her the pass-slip – she didn’t even need to bribe him - - he just wanted to go for lunch… these countries have overcome poor drivers by adopting the 5Es of the road safety system.

If you suddenly introduced and enforced the Thai driving test tomorrow, you’d still have 40 million road users to contend with – the safe system will do that.

 

Thailand now has a very good road test system but you come down to “E-for=enforcement” again.  There are undoubtedly loads of unlicensed and uninsured motorcyclists on Thai road =- many of them retirees and tourists…. But this is the result of an incompetent and untrained police force and a court/legal system that is simply not able to prosecute or chase up offenders – why would they when a 100 baht bribe will do?

There are moves afoot to implement a points system and enforce it but I suspect, it won’t work very well and it will just result in an increase in tea-money.

I don’t think clutching single issues does any good when it comes to the road safety situation in Thailand and no one area will provide the solution – the 5 Es must be applied completely and simultaneously.

As for testing – it gives a person a knowledge of the local highway code – the only copy of which was published in 1979. To have any effect it needs to be part of an ongoing, life-long government run public information plane – this has worked all over the world – otherwise people just lapse into bad habits.

 

There is a huge lack of thinking and understanding by members of the public in ALL countries – people in low death rate countries think it’s because they are “better driver” when in reality they have no idea of how much their native road system saves them from injury every day.

The countries with the low death rates are the ones who design roads, have emergency services, trained police and accident evaluators – Thailand falls short on all of this.

 

"a result of being discouraged from thinking while in school, only repeating what they are told without question." - and there's another sweeping generalisation about Thai people - the use of "culture" to deflect from an underlying racist theory.

 

[NorthernRyland]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

If you just take time to think about it - there is no such thing a "common" sense - it's just your way of seeing the world without thinking too much. it just boils down to a wild anti-Thai generalisation.

You're trying so hard to avoid the truth. All our opinions are coming from real world experience driving and they are generally true. Thai people are driving dangerously regardless of road conditions. It's not possible to drive the way they do without having these kinds of accidents.

 

It's all there in the open for you to observe if you're willing to objective but you seem badly brain washed to believe that all people are the same and Thai's must be driving to the same standards as any other people.

[NorthernRyland]

23 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I have actually covered all this before – firstly be aware of the 5 Es –

1. Education

Education isn't the problem. They know better but they're impatient, inconsiderate and willing to take dangerous risks at the expense of themselves and others. Again, look at the videos for reference. Hundreds of crashes caused solely by bad behavior.

[Rimmer]

Off topic troll post removed

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Yeah but I wasn't a racist until I started driving in Thailand. ????

 

Watch a few of these videos and see if you notice any patterns.

 

 

what you get from this is confirmation bias - you can find videos like this all over the world 0 including Sweden and Uk - what it demonstrates is peoples inability to to look critically at the media.

What you are doing is well documented - it's called Apophenia and refers to the human tendency to see patterns and meaning in random information. It is a type of bias that can disproportionately influence our perception of the world.

like all conspiracy theories they have to start with a random grain of truth.

People need to practice some critical thinking.

Edited February 22, 2023 by kwilco

[kwilco]

25 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Education isn't the problem. They know better but they're impatient, inconsiderate and willing to take dangerous risks at the expense of themselves and others. Again, look at the videos for reference. Hundreds of crashes caused solely by bad behavior.

As I said ealier - wild and inaccurate sweeping anti- Thai generalisations - the cliiche'd use of third person plural. In fact Thai drivers are very courteous - I suspect you just don't know the Thai code.

Edited February 22, 2023 by kwilco

[NorthernRyland]

4 minutes ago, kwilco said:

As I said ealier - wild and inaccurate sweeping anti- Thai generalisations - the cliiche'd use of third person plural. In fact Thai drivers are very courteous - I suspect you just don't know the Thai code.

This defies reasoning. You're either in serious denial or haven't actually been driving in Thailand long enough to understand what's happening here. If you knew what you were talking about you'd know basic things like speed limits aren't observed or enforced and people routinely enter roads without yielding.

[RanongCat]

20 minutes ago, kwilco said:

As I said ealier - wild and inaccurate sweeping anti- Thai generalisations - the cliiche'd use of third person plural. In fact Thai drivers are very courteous - I suspect you just don't know the Thai code.

Is maybe you never go to North East Thauland driving ?  Different code !

[kwilco]

41 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Is maybe you never go to North East Thailand driving ?  Different code !

As I said earlier I have driven ALL over Thailand and probably more than anyone on this thread. I've also driven in Laos and Malaysia. I have crossed into Laos in about 6 different places from Issan where I also have driven extensively.

 

As I said earlier as well - it isn't the experience, it's what you make of it - for many people that is just an excuse to form bad driving habits

 

In fact the only continents I haven't driven on are South America and Antarctica..

However it's not my extensive experience in driving that I rely on, it is extensive training in Road safety and critical thinking.

Edited February 22, 2023 by kwilco

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Cars manufactured in Thailand meet all current international safety requirements.

basically all the models built in Thailand are also built elsewhere - the specification is changed for each country, but the same basic safety features remain the same - you my find older cars don't have as many airbags as export models, you'll find different 4x4 systems and engine options on. the pickups and SUVs and some differences in emissions - up until the 2010s many pickups in Thailand didn't have a heater let alone rear airbags.

[Bangkok Barry]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

You compare UK and Thai road deaths and then M/Cs and Driving tests.

 

I have actually covered all this before – firstly be aware of the 5 Es –

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

I’ve set them out above

 

Firstly UK and Thailand – UK and Thailand have about the SAME number of collisions yet the deaths are different – between 10 and 12 times more in Thailand – so “avoiding each other is not the problem – its more or less the same. So you are assuming a generalisation about Thai drivers that is incorrect – not based on the evidence but based on prejudice.

 

Motorcyclists – account for a huge proportion of road deaths in Thailand between 73 and 80% depending on where you look – In fact the 80% probably  represents “vulnerable” road users – this is a category that includes motorcyclists but also other road users – pedestrians cyclists and a few more. Half of the traffic on Thai roads is on 2 wheels and the other half is one vehicles that can inflict a lot of damage to vulnerable motorists this is a very dangerous combination and no effort is made to separate them.

 – however how and why is not simple – for instance no work is done to improve visibility of motorcyclist  e.g. at junctions or obscured by advertising billboards. E for enforcement would also increase the number wearing appropriate crash helmets – which prevent only a certain amount of head injuries but a significant number. So it would make sense for the authorities to address the vulnerability of motorcyclists – one glaring fault is the using of road boarders as “bike lanes” – they are way too narrow for that and also inconsistent. I most EU v=countries they have “think bike” notices and campaigns. You might notice how 4-wheeled vehicles in Thailand make no effort to give space when they pass a motorcycle – in the EU they are respect as another vehicle – this comes under E for education.

 

 

Then you mention rod tests – these are a bit of a red herring – most westerners took totally laughable road tests – after they pass they believe they then learn by “experience” – in reality they just pick up more bad habits.

(Belgium had no driving test until the 1970s and some States in the US allowed children as young as 14 to drive cars – and in Italy -driving tests were just down to corruption – a member of my family went for a test and the Italian instructor watched her start the car and “go on then! Get out! I can see you can =drive! And handed her the pass-slip – she didn’t even need to bribe him - - he just wanted to go for lunch… these countries have overcome poor drivers by adopting the 5Es of the road safety system.

If you suddenly introduced and enforced the Thai driving test tomorrow, you’d still have 40 million road users to contend with – the safe system will do that.

 

Thailand now has a very good road test system but you come down to “E-for=enforcement” again.  There are undoubtedly loads of unlicensed and uninsured motorcyclists on Thai road =- many of them retirees and tourists…. But this is the result of an incompetent and untrained police force and a court/legal system that is simply not able to prosecute or chase up offenders – why would they when a 100 baht bribe will do?

There are moves afoot to implement a points system and enforce it but I suspect, it won’t work very well and it will just result in an increase in tea-money.

I don’t think clutching single issues does any good when it comes to the road safety situation in Thailand and no one area will provide the solution – the 5 Es must be applied completely and simultaneously.

As for testing – it gives a person a knowledge of the local highway code – the only copy of which was published in 1979. To have any effect it needs to be part of an ongoing, life-long government run public information plane – this has worked all over the world – otherwise people just lapse into bad habits.

 

There is a huge lack of thinking and understanding by members of the public in ALL countries – people in low death rate countries think it’s because they are “better driver” when in reality they have no idea of how much their native road system saves them from injury every day.

The countries with the low death rates are the ones who design roads, have emergency services, trained police and accident evaluators – Thailand falls short on all of this.

 

"a result of being discouraged from thinking while in school, only repeating what they are told without question." - and there's another sweeping generalisation about Thai people - the use of "culture" to deflect from an underlying racist theory.

 

I choose to disagree with most of what you say. But thank you for making a considerable effort to tell me your point of view.

[Classic Ray]

9 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

An accidental collision.  It was certainly out of the control of the rescue foundation's personnel...pure and simple.

No, someone is always at fault. Good road design with more central crash barriers rather than klongs with trees (guaranteed killers) would go a long way towards minimising the effects of the driver(s) at fault.

[kwilco]

6 minutes ago, Classic Ray said:

No, someone is always at fault. Good road design with more central crash barriers rather than klongs with trees (guaranteed killers) would go a long way towards minimising the effects of the driver(s) at fault.

Playing the blame game is rather unproductive. saying "someone" is always at fault is over simplistic - the truth is usually that "fault" can be attributed to more than one party - a small human error can be exacerbated by someone's lack of skill in diving resulting in failure to avoid an incident that was not of their own making but made worse by their actions. Imaging a guy happily driving down a road when a car ploughs into the side of him - it then transpires that the first driver was completely drunk. One car makes a mistake but the other was drunk.

Crashes happen often as the result of "human error" - but this is NORMAL for all human drivers - nobody is perfect all the time - sometimes they get way with it and sometimes they don't.

 

Here's a summary of human error....it's something we ALL do....and accounts for up to 95% of all crashes...

Human error is not “bad driving”, it is a normal occurrence. It has been shown that human error falls largely into one of three principle categories[1].

 

First is a perceptual error. Critical information that is below the threshold for seeing - the light was too dim, the driver was blinded by the glare, or the pedestrian's clothes had low contrast. In other cases, the driver made a perceptual misjudgement (a curve's radius or another car's speed or distance). Or in Thailand, just tinted windows!

 

Second and far more common cause is that the critical information was detectable but that the driver failed to attend/notice because his mental resources were focussed elsewhere. Often times, a driver will claim that s/he did not "see" a plainly visible pedestrian or car. This is entirely possible because much of our information processing occurs outside of awareness. - (Mack and Rock, 1998)[2]

 

Third, the driver may correctly process the information but fail to choose the correct response ("I'm skidding, so I'll turn away from the skid") or make the correct decision yet fail to carry it out ("I meant to hit the brake, but I hit the gas").

 

Thailand has had a lot of advice from road safety organisations both home and abroad, but somehow this advice does not get taken and is overruled by the archaic “we know best” prejudices of successive ill-informed governments who fail to understand the basic concept of “human error” as opposed to “blame”.

 

---

[1] https://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/roadaccidents.html

[2] (Mack and Rock (1998) have shown that we can be less likely to perceive an object if we are looking directly at it than if it falls outside the centre of the visual field. This "inattentional blindness" phenomenon is certainly the cause of many RTIs)

 

[spidermike007]

I am often on the highway, and I see a buffoon making a u-turn, or entering the highway in front of vehicles going high speed, when they could have waited 4 seconds and had a clear path. It is almost as if their reasoning would not allow that cautious path of action. 

 

The only way to survive here on the road, is to be patient, have eyes in the back of your head, drive with caution, and always, and I mean always watch out of the other guy. Chances are, he does not have much driving skill, nor patience, nor reason, nor common sense. You cannot be too careful on the road here. Especially considering that the toy police offer no traffic safety, prevention, enforcement of the law, or concern toward the prosecution of very reckless drivers. 

 

Those of us with driving skill, and a strong desire for not only survival, but the avoidance of terrible injury, are constantly scanning the road, in front of us, beside us, and behind us. There are an exceptionally high number of reckless fools on these roads, and it is the only way to preserve our lives, and those of our families, and friends, who may be driving with us, and depending on us. 
 

Edited February 22, 2023 by spidermike007

[freedomnow]

11 hours ago, rwill said:

As they say, "Speed kills."

Unless you....(pauses for effect)...............KILL the SPEED.

[kwilco]

46 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I am often on the highway, and I see a buffoon making a u-turn, or entering the highway in front of vehicles going high speed, when they could have waited 4 seconds and had a clear path. It is almost as if their reasoning would not allow that cautious path of action. 

 

The only way to survive here on the road, is to be patient, have eyes in the back of your head, drive with caution, and always, and I mean always watch out of the other guy. Chances are, he does not have much driving skill, nor patience, nor reason, nor common sense. You cannot be too careful on the road here. Especially considering that the toy police offer no traffic safety, prevention, enforcement of the law, or concern toward the prosecution of very reckless drivers. 

 

Those of us with driving skill, and a strong desire for not only survival, but the avoidance of terrible injury, are constantly scanning the road, in front of us, beside us, and behind us. There are an exceptionally high number of reckless fools on these roads, and it is the only way to preserve our lives, and those of our families, and friends, who may be driving with us, and depending on us. 
 

The arrogance of “western” drivers……

 

Detailed anecdotal descriptions of how “bad” other motorists driving achieve nothing. Without analysis, all they do is reinforce those people’s prejudices about driving in Thailand - i.e. blaming people or even the entire nation, rather than considering the underlying causes. There is also the temptation to attempt simplifying matters by looking for one single solution for the whole problem; a sort of road safety panacea

 

·       Patience is something you admire in the driver behind you and scorn in the one ahead. ...

 

A few common truths about how motorists see themselves versus other road users

 

“Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” - George Carlin

 

“ ….. there are only three types of drivers; the too fast, the timid and oneself.” 
― Virginia Graham, Say Please

 

“There are two things no man will admit he cannot do well, drive and make love.” – Stirling Moss

 

Dunning-Kruger effect: - a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  –

 

Individuals do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are.

• I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore, little I can do.

• Hence, less likely to need to “plan to avoid them”

• Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not themselves.

• Such campaigns re-emphasise this difference (2CV, 2008 and Flaming Research, 2008)

• The third-person effect (Davison, 1983).

• High support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education

• But not for themselves - for other people.

 

However, the reality can be a long way from these benighted perspectives

[kwilco]

22 minutes ago, freedomnow said:

Unless you....(pauses for effect)...............KILL the SPEED.

It is a very common illusion that when people are driving in an "alien" environment they get the impression that everythinh is moving much aster - in fact it is their brain working overtime trying to assimilate the unfamiliar