Joint Bank Account--widow refused access

[Liverpool Lou]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

when certain banks become aware of the death of a joint owner, they'll freeze that account and await probation

No, I think you'll find that it's probate that needs to be granted, not "probation".

[JimGant]

33 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, I think you'll find that it's probate that needs to be granted, not "probation".

Hey, you got me on that one, you sly mother.

[sometime]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, I think you'll find that it's probate that needs to be granted, not "probation".

We have 2 joint accounts & on the pass books they both say Mr xxxxxx & or Mrs xxxxx
But wouldn't like to put it to the test

[Sheryl]

22 hours ago, JimGant said:

She was forced to provide it in order to get a new joint account passbook, or to cancel the joint account. But she, as a joint "either/or" account holder, could continue to drain the joint account legally (with no need of a passbook, as it's filled, to do so -- just provide the withdrawal slip at the counter) Also, there is no Thai law that freezes joint accounts upon death of one owner, contrary to what we sometimes see on this forum on the many vast Will discussions. Instead, Thailand adheres to the "joint tenant with right of survivorship (JTWROS) concept, common in the West, and accepted here, where the remaining joint owner of a bank account gets 100%, with no probate needed. Thus certainly no off-base bank administrator dictating the freezing of such a joint account should be adhered to. But, hey, what can you do in such circumstances....

 

Contact the bank HQ is what one  can do  (but has to be done by the jount account holder thenself.)

 

Very, very common here for branch staff not to know, or incorrectly appy,  the rules/procedures. 

 

Update:  just notice OP post stating maymtter fully resolved by simply speaking to branch manager (as opposed to staff). 

 

Bever, ever assume low level staff know what they are doing or will follow through on anything out of the ordinary here in Thailand. There is a strong cultural reluctance to:

- admit one does not know something

- ask one's superor a question or refer a matter to them

- take any action or decision if there is any perceived risk of it being wrong

 

And conversely there is great willingness to stall or fob customers  off with lies and excuses. Especially if  customer is perceived to meek and/or if  low social status.

 

 

 

 

 

[khaepmu]

This has been my experience with  bank staff. They are often not sure of a lot things but will answer questions as if they are.  But if you get a chance to talk to the bank manager, you will get a more definitive or valid answer. As an aside, it helps to make frequent trips to your bank together  with your spouse, especially if you have a joint account. I sometimes go into the bank to deposit or withdraw money instead of using the ATM machine just to be seen.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, khaepmu said:

This has been my experience with  bank staff. They are often not sure of a lot things but will answer questions as if they are.  But if you get a chance to talk to the bank manager, you will get a more definitive or valid answer. As an aside, it helps to make frequent trips to your bank together  with your spouse, especially if you have a joint account. I sometimes go into the bank to deposit or withdraw money instead of using the ATM machine just to be seen.

In my local branch of the KBank, if they are not sure of the answer they quite often ring the Bank's Call Centre to get a more definitive answer.

[foreverlomsak]

On 3/15/2023 at 10:25 AM, prakhonchai nick said:

UK death certificate with notarised translation has been provided, but they now  say after 4 days, that they need to make enquiries in the UK...........<deleted>!!!!!!!!

 

Surely what they are doing is totally wrong.  There is no reason why the widow cannot access money in a joint account, especially as everything she was asked for has been provided.  Bank will not discuss!!!!!!!!

When my father died, while living with us in Thailand, despite me having a power of attorney over his financial affairs, the bank 1. locked the account and 2. refused to release the balance of his accounts to me until I got a Thai court ruling releasing them from any liability for later claims, in other words I had to certify to the court that there were no possible claimant's to his estate from outside Thailand.

[terryq]

13 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

When my father died, while living with us in Thailand, despite me having a power of attorney over his financial affairs, the bank 1. locked the account and 2. refused to release the balance of his accounts to me until I got a Thai court ruling releasing them from any liability for later claims, in other words I had to certify to the court that there were no possible claimant's to his estate from outside Thailand.

In your case the bank was correct.

 

Powers of Attorney (+ second signatures0 are automatically cancelled on the death of the principal. At the time of death the ownership of the account passes from the principal to their 'Estate' which is then controlled by the Executor.

 

Edit to add.. Joint account status is not affected.

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by terryq

[foreverlomsak]

4 minutes ago, terryq said:

In your case the bank was correct.

 

Powers of Attorney (+ second signatures0 are automatically cancelled on the death of the principal. At the time of death the ownership of the account passes from the principal to their 'Estate' which is then controlled by the Executor.

 

Edit to add.. Joint account status is not affected.

 

I'm not saying the bank was wrong, they were protecting themselves.

I'm just highlighting (for peoples information) the steps which I had to take even as the Executor of his estate.

[Henryford]

Highlights the need to put your assets/money in your wife's name as you come near to your death (unless you die suddenly). If i had health problems or advanced age i would put the condo and all cash (apart from the 800k visa money) in wife's name. Even the 800k could be transferred on your death bed.

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, Henryford said:

Even the 800k could be transferred on your death bed.

We're with Bangkok Bank. We have online banking. Her accounts, an individual and a utility account, plus our joint account (as she's the prime owner) all come under a single online account number under her name. As such, we have unlimited transfer amounts between these accounts, i.e., between these accounts grouped under the single online account number.  Now, my online account is my 800k immigration account, and has a separate online account number. And unless you raise the daily limit transfer amount, you're restricted to 500k transfer limit to another online account; this is both to another Bangkok Bank online account or to a third party bank account.

 

Anyway, planning for your demise, raise this limit to cover most of what's in your account. This is fairly simple, all online, and with the OTP drill. Do a small-amount practice transfer to make sure all goes smoothly with the OTPs. Then, brief the wife that upon your death, transfer most of this account's value to her account; emphasize this transfer step is on the same priority, at least, as your barbecue date.

 

The bank is not going to know, at least for awhile, of your demise, so they have no legal obligation to freeze your account. And if your wife is sole beneficiary in your Will, well, probate is avoided; she gets your money soonest -- no waiting 5 months for probate wrap-up; 50k baht in probate fees saved; and no one (except lawyer mafia) to complain about imagined legalities or ethic violations.

 

And your joint account......? Due to possible freezing of that account, per previous discussion in this thread, have the wife also transfer most of this account's value to her account.

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, JimGant said:

We're with Bangkok Bank. We have online banking. Her accounts, an individual and a utility account, plus our joint account (as she's the prime owner) all come under a single online account number under her name. As such, we have unlimited transfer amounts between these accounts, i.e., between these accounts grouped under the single online account number.  Now, my online account is my 800k immigration account, and has a separate online account number. And unless you raise the daily limit transfer amount, you're restricted to 500k transfer limit to another online account; this is both to another Bangkok Bank online account or to a third party bank account.

 

Anyway, planning for your demise, raise this limit to cover most of what's in your account. This is fairly simple, all online, and with the OTP drill. Do a small-amount practice transfer to make sure all goes smoothly with the OTPs. Then, brief the wife that upon your death, transfer most of this account's value to her account; emphasize this transfer step is on the same priority, at least, as your barbecue date.

 

The bank is not going to know, at least for awhile, of your demise, so they have no legal obligation to freeze your account. And if your wife is sole beneficiary in your Will, well, probate is avoided; she gets your money soonest -- no waiting 5 months for probate wrap-up; 50k baht in probate fees saved; and no one (except lawyer mafia) to complain about imagined legalities or ethic violations.

 

And your joint account......? Due to possible freezing of that account, per previous discussion in this thread, have the wife also transfer most of this account's value to her account.

Don't tell the bank on my demise is the way to go,  my sole account is a ATM card a/c,  wife can use the card. 

We had a word with our Bkbk branch about joint account with ATM card and money going into that will dry up eventually so not a problem. 

[khaepmu]

I have a joint account with my Thai wife, "either/or" as it is referred to on the document we signed. Very convenient. I told my wife that in the event of my death she can go the probate/court route with our will or just empty the account out and put the funds into her own account. But not at one time. I told her that the later is a better option. Actually, I want to ask the bank if we can use their online services with our joint account. Both names but one password. That would be an ideal way to go in the event of one of us dying. Just go online and transfer the money from our joint account to any of our other single accounts. We also have a jointly owned  mutual fund with the same bank/company but it is called 'Asset Management' rather than a 'bank'. They deposit the dividend into our joint bank account automatically. I told my wife that, in the event of my death, to transfer 95% of the assets from the mutual fund into our joint account. There is not limit on what you can sell and transfer. All done online. Either one of us can buy or sell shares online . In order to access our account online we recently had to upgrade security and do the google authenticator ID thing. 

 

I would like to avoid probate if possible. I don't know anyone who has had to deal with the courts and probate and I have no idea of the cost involved. 

 

[prakhonchai nick]

On 3/25/2023 at 11:26 AM, khaepmu said:

I have a joint account with my Thai wife, "either/or" as it is referred to on the document we signed. Very convenient. I told my wife that in the event of my death she can go the probate/court route with our will or just empty the account out and put the funds into her own account. But not at one time. I told her that the later is a better option. Actually, I want to ask the bank if we can use their online services with our joint account. Both names but one password. That would be an ideal way to go in the event of one of us dying. Just go online and transfer the money from our joint account to any of our other single accounts. We also have a jointly owned  mutual fund with the same bank/company but it is called 'Asset Management' rather than a 'bank'. They deposit the dividend into our joint bank account automatically. I told my wife that, in the event of my death, to transfer 95% of the assets from the mutual fund into our joint account. There is not limit on what you can sell and transfer. All done online. Either one of us can buy or sell shares online . In order to access our account online we recently had to upgrade security and do the google authenticator ID thing. 

 

I would like to avoid probate if possible. I don't know anyone who has had to deal with the courts and probate and I have no idea of the cost involved. 

 

The cost of probate depends on where you  appoint a lawyer from.  My local lawyer who has assisted 3 widows charges around 30,000baht. A lawyer some 50kms away charged 60,000 baht to obtain a little over 100,000baht from a bank. No doubt a Bangkok lawyer would charge more.

 

Wives and partners must be told over and over that when you die, they must not rush to the bank to advise your death, but withdraw he money with an ATM card, slowly, possible make a transfer to another account with an ATM, but not with a huge amount.  Beware of causing suspicion with the bank.  They can also do online banking - if they fully understand the process, which many do not. Even then they must first access the computer, and many are locked with wives/partners being unaware of the opening password.

[Kwasaki]

20 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

The cost of probate depends on where you  appoint a lawyer from.  My local lawyer who has assisted 3 widows charges around 30,000baht. A lawyer some 50kms away charged 60,000 baht to obtain a little over 100,000baht from a bank. No doubt a Bangkok lawyer would charge more.

 

Wives and partners must be told over and over that when you die, they must not rush to the bank to advise your death, but withdraw he money with an ATM card, slowly, possible make a transfer to another account with an ATM, but not with a huge amount.  Beware of causing suspicion with the bank.  They can also do online banking - if they fully understand the process, which many do not. Even then they must first access the computer, and many are locked with wives/partners being unaware of the opening password.

We have that set up sort of,  the Atm account for 1 year extension has to be in my name, so when I am near pegging the Mrs can start drawing it out, sounds a bit silly but when I had a fix monthly account it could make getting her hands on all the dosh difficult.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

The cost of probate depends on where you  appoint a lawyer from.  My local lawyer who has assisted 3 widows charges around 30,000baht. A lawyer some 50kms away charged 60,000 baht to obtain a little over 100,000baht from a bank. No doubt a Bangkok lawyer would charge more.

 

Wives and partners must be told over and over that when you die, they must not rush to the bank to advise your death, but withdraw he money with an ATM card, slowly, possible make a transfer to another account with an ATM, but not with a huge amount.  Beware of causing suspicion with the bank.  They can also do online banking - if they fully understand the process, which many do not. Even then they must first access the computer, and many are locked with wives/partners being unaware of the opening password.

I have been drumming that into my wife for several months now and she is finally understanding why.