Who killed the British Motor Industry ?

[itsari]

16 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Say no more. I lived in Coventry and in the 50's to the late 60's it was cars cars cars. You name one and it was made in Coventry. Outside my infant school in the 60's was a large grassed open area where a week didn't go by where there wasn't a mass meeting due to a union walk out. In fact the road it sat on was the 'Humber Rd'. The factory was later bought out by Peugeot. Yep those greedy unions destroyed the Coventry car plants.

Nothing to do with management unable and unwilling to cooperate with trade unions ?

[liddelljohn]

lack of foresight poor quality lack of new tooling , lack of development despite having very talented designers and engineers but they were starved of resources , unions partly to blame , but greedy owners  such as lady Docker the  owner of Triumph/BSA motorcycles  her husband ran the companies he spent all the profits on her diamonds , yacht and parties same in shipbuilding, cars , etc    all killed by idiots  and greed

[neeray]

13 hours ago, transam said:

Says the bloke whose motor industry was decimated by the Japanese.....????

Oh, and his brother could not service an MGB............????

I had a used MGB back in the sixties (Canada). The electrical system sure didn't like the rain! But that old MGB gave me the sports car bug. Next came a brand new Datsun (now Nissan) 280Z in 1976. Now there was a sports car, rain or shine (or snow).

[KhaoYai]

I have no doubt that the unions and their activity played the biggest part in the collapse of the motor industry in Britain but let's not forget the complacency issue. The industry failed to modernise, lived of its laurels and failed to meet the threat the was coming from Japan and elsewhere.

 

Just as the Honda 50 gave the working man what he needed to get to work - it was cheap, did zillions to the gallon and most of all was very reliable. The Japs (initially) produced cheap, reliable cars that had a high level of equipment. I remember when my mate's and I would go off for weekends on our bikes - the amount of times we'd be stuck at the roadside because the lads British bikes had broken down.  They even had to have trays placed under them in showrooms because of oil leaks.

 

Likewise it was in the car industry.  I remember the first Datsun Cherry - complete with reclining seats and a radio! Carpets thoughout, tinted windows etc. etc. etc. Yes they rotted like hell for the first few years but so did British cars - I made a living out of welding them up.  The Japs soon sorted that problem and began bringing in more and more different models - most equipped with items that were extras on British motors - they were cheaper too and far, far more reliable.

 

European manufacturers, the ones that had any sense, also got their act together and gave customers a better deal. Internationals took a look at the union activity going on in the UK and either closed or drastically reduced their UK operations. A lot of British names had already been swallowed up by BMC, British Leyand, Leyland Cars or whatever name they'd changed to on the day so when they took a dive, those companies did too.

 

So, whilst the unions did finally screw up the motor industry in Britain - it hadn't been a viable concern for a long time.  We were turning out utter <deleted> - the Japs and Europeans had beaten us at one of the things we'd done best for many years. We just failed to invest, failed to modernise and failed to give the the customer what they wanted.

 

We produced, what was considered by many, some of the best cars in the world - and they probably were in their day - that's why foreign companies  clammer to buy up the rights to former British brands and model names.  BMW now own Rolls Royce and produce the Mini, the Indians own Landrover, and even the Chinese bought the MG brand.

 

We totally screwed it up.

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by KhaoYai

[quake]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

So, whilst the unions did finally screw up the motor industry in Britain - it hadn't been a viable concern for a long time.  We were turning out utter <deleted> - the Japs and Europeans had beaten us at one of the things we'd done best for many years. We just failed to invest, failed to modernize and failed to give the the customer what they wanted.

Amen. 

[IvorBiggun2]

36 minutes ago, quake said:

We just failed to invest

The writing was on the wall for a long time. Who in their right mind would want to invest in UK cars plants? In saying that Peugeot did in Coventry 1985.    

Edited March 20, 2023 by IvorBiggun2

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Rotweiler said:

Unions?  Not really (but did contribute)  Thatcher?  Not really (but she did it no favours).  Really poor quality cars did it, though.  From the late 50's on, names like Lucas and Rover, Triumph and MG etc etc were synonymous with poor quality design, construction and an abysmal lack of quality control - even worse that US car builders in the 60's.

Have to agree that the British built rubbish quality cars. I liked my Hunter but it ended up with more bog in it than steel panel.

Bedford trucks were garbage to fix. Comer vans- what a heap of junk!

[stratocaster]

A great insight to the British car industry is a book called "Wheels of Misfortune" by Jonathan Wood. Here is the preface.

 

"An investigation into the rise and subsequent fall of the British car industry over the last century. In 1950, Britain was Europe's leading car manufacturer. Today it trails behind Germany, France, Italy and Spain in the European car market. The author investigates the role of management, trade unions and government in the demise of the industry. He argues that the key to the industry's failure lies in its long time reliance on insular, self-taught leadership and a national environment where engineering has been relegated to a secondary social status. His investigations are based on hundreds of interviews with engineers, designers and top executives including John Barber and Sir John Egan".

 

As someone who worked for Rover in the 70's on both the assembly line and the research and development departments I can recall horrendous stories of cost cutting methods. Remember British cars were built by accountants not engineers.

[josephbloggs]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:18 AM, markclover said:

The British killed it by selling the factory and blueprints to China.  That will do it.

Nonsense.

[xylophone]

On 3/20/2023 at 5:45 AM, KhaoYai said:

I have no doubt that the unions and their activity played the biggest part in the collapse of the motor industry in Britain but let's not forget the complacency issue. The industry failed to modernise, lived of its laurels and failed to meet the threat the was coming from Japan and elsewhere.

 

Just as the Honda 50 gave the working man what he needed to get to work - it was cheap, did zillions to the gallon and most of all was very reliable. The Japs (initially) produced cheap, reliable cars that had a high level of equipment. I remember when my mate's and I would go off for weekends on our bikes - the amount of times we'd be stuck at the roadside because the lads British bikes had broken down.  They even had to have trays placed under them in showrooms because of oil leaks.

 

Likewise it was in the car industry.  I remember the first Datsun Cherry - complete with reclining seats and a radio! Carpets thoughout, tinted windows etc. etc. etc. Yes they rotted like hell for the first few years but so did British cars - I made a living out of welding them up.  The Japs soon sorted that problem and began bringing in more and more different models - most equipped with items that were extras on British motors - they were cheaper too and far, far more reliable.

 

European manufacturers, the ones that had any sense, also got their act together and gave customers a better deal. Internationals took a look at the union activity going on in the UK and either closed or drastically reduced their UK operations. A lot of British names had already been swallowed up by BMC, British Leyand, Leyland Cars or whatever name they'd changed to on the day so when they took a dive, those companies did too.

 

So, whilst the unions did finally screw up the motor industry in Britain - it hadn't been a viable concern for a long time.  We were turning out utter <deleted> - the Japs and Europeans had beaten us at one of the things we'd done best for many years. We just failed to invest, failed to modernise and failed to give the the customer what they wanted.

 

We produced, what was considered by many, some of the best cars in the world - and they probably were in their day - that's why foreign companies  clammer to buy up the rights to former British brands and model names.  BMW now own Rolls Royce and produce the Mini, the Indians own Landrover, and even the Chinese bought the MG brand.

 

We totally screwed it up.

 

Absolutely spot on @KhaoYai. Nailed it.

[stratocaster]

The last nail in the coffin. In 2004 the remnants of the original BMC were called MG Rover. At the time the must have car was a supermini, unfortunately Rover had no such car. Management decided that the best course of action was to do a marketing deal with an existing car. The car chosen was the Indian made Tatra Indica which had already been in production for 5 years. This was re-badged as a Cityrover. It was priced at 7000 pounds when a Peugeot 104, the market leader at the time was retailing for 5777 pounds. The build quality was so bad that dealers refused to sell them due to warranty claims, so MG Rover sold them direct to the public. When the company went bankrupt in 2005 the CEO, COO, head of marketing and head of finance were given a tax payer funded golden handshake of one million pounds each. The work force received 3000 pounds in redundancy payments.

PS.     The Cityrover is rated one place above the Reliant Robin in the worst cars ever built list.

[stratocaster]

Just before the Brexit vote I remember watching a staunch brexiteer stating that if the vote is leave one of the casualties will be the UK car manufacturing industry. Last year Nissan announced that unless the UK government gave them a per car produced subsidy they would cease UK production. ( it was reported in the German press that they will definitely close) Nissan output was 500,000 per year pre brexit last year 250,000. Yesterday it was announced the the company that owns the Vauxhall brand are considering withdrawing all car production in the UK. Main reason given is that pre brexit UK car type approval was valid throughout the EU. Now a UK produced car with, for example, German type approval can only be sold in Germany, not the whole of the EU. As we lost our car production the knock on effect was that we lost our component industry. When your business  model rely's on just in time delivery and the bulk of your components come from the EU a hold up at Dover will be a major disaster.

[stratocaster]

It goes from bad to worse. As of December 2023 due to an agreement signed between the UK and EU, electric cars are subject to local content tariffs. As EU produced electric cars sold in the UK meet the local content rules they can be sold in the UK tariff free. UK produced electric cars sold in the EU can not meet the local content rules, so will be subject to EU tariffs. Don't remember seeing that on the side of the bus. Local content rules revolve round the battery. The EU have 40 battery manufacturing plants the UK has none. It is speculated that 8 more Chinese electric car companies will begin selling, but not manufacturing, in the UK this year.

[BenStark]

On 3/20/2023 at 5:45 AM, KhaoYai said:

I have no doubt that the unions and their activity played the biggest part in the collapse of the motor industry in Britain but let's not forget the complacency issue.

Unions are the voice of the workforce, and every country in the world has unions in the car industry. So if you want to blame the unions, then it is because the workforce was demanding too much.

On 3/20/2023 at 5:45 AM, KhaoYai said:

We were turning out utter <deleted> - the Japs and Europeans had beaten us at one of the things we'd done best for many years.

Brit motors have never been the best. In Europe everyone would avoid British motors, because as you said yourself above, it was known they needed a permanent oil supply, since they were leaking like a sieve.

If you opened the motor hood from a Vauxhall or Bedford, you could not see the metal of the engine, as it would be completely covered by thick oil layer.

Yet the same Vauxhall would be built in Europe under the name Opel, and they did not have that issue

On 3/20/2023 at 5:45 AM, KhaoYai said:

We produced, what was considered by many, some of the best cars in the world - and they probably were in their day -

That is only an imagination. I once, about 40 years ago, bought a second hand Roll Royce Corniche, and above the rear bumper you could see through the bodywork from one side to the other. Those cars were imported from the US, as we use left hand steering, and were dirt cheap.

On 3/20/2023 at 5:45 AM, KhaoYai said:

We just failed to invest, failed to modernise and failed to give the the customer what they wanted.

That is the main reason. The UK has always lived in the past, and they still do, failing to see the future.

[KhaoYai]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:22 AM, BenStark said:

Brit motors have never been the best.

I'm not about to enter into an argument with you but you should read my post properly - especially its context.

 

The British motor industry was in fact a world leader and considered the best.  That doesn't imply good quality - it was just how things were.  If you have a mediocre car and a bad car, obviously the mediocre car is the best buy.  That's how it was at the time.

 

As for your comments on Vauhall/Opel - not quite correct.  Engines, on the whole, were built in engine plants and shipped to various assembly plants. Thus an engine built in Germany could be installed in a vehicle built in any one of a number of assembly plants - including the UK and vice versa.  Oil leaks etc. were common in many European brands.  I was in the motor trade for most of my working life and I can tell you that there were and still are some hideously poor quality cars built by both European and British manufacturers:

 

Renault for example - the early Trafic van engines were terrible.  More recently BMW redesigned a previously 'bullet proof' 2.0 diesel engine and totally wrecked it - cam chains snapping after just 25,000 miles in some cases.  The same company used nicosil coated liners in some of its petrol engines in the early nineties - an engine that proceeded to burn large amounts of oil. Again BMW in your own country were ordered to replace the electric power steering units in its MIni brand and to give a lifetime warranty on them. Somehow and I don't understand why, BMW are still considered as a quality car

 

A more serious comparison would be between the British/European brands and the Japs - the Japs saw what we did and did it better.

Edited May 20, 2023 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:22 AM, BenStark said:

So if you want to blame the unions, then it is because the workforce was demanding too much

I never said they weren't - the unions are the collective voice of the workforce.  What's the difference?

 

What they were in fact doing is something that is still common in the UK today - producing poor quailty work and demanding more for it.  I've generally worked on my own or within a small company but my experience of working in British factories is that a high proportion of the workforce would be better descibed as 'workshy'.  I was once told to slow down and not work so hard - by the Shop Steward - he didn't want everyone to have to work like I did.

[Kwasaki]

13 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I'm not about to enter into an argument with you but you should read my post properly - especially its context.

 

The British motor industry was in fact a world leader and considered the best.  That doesn't imply good quality - it was just how things were.  If you have a mediocre car and a bad car, obviously the mediocre car is the best buy.  That's how it was at the time.

 

As for your comments on Vauhall/Opel - not quite correct.  Engines, on the whole, were built in engine plants and shipped to various assembly plants. Thus an engine built in Germany could be installed in a vehicle built in any one of a number of assembly plants - including the UK and vice versa.  Oil leaks etc. were common in many European brands.  I was in the motor trade for most of my working life and I can tell you that there were and still are some hideously poor quality cars built by both European and British manufacturers:

 

Renault for example - the early Trafic van engines were terrible.  More recently BMW redesigned a previously 'bullet proof' 2.0 diesel engine and totally wrecked it - cam chains snapping after just 25,000 miles in some cases.  The same company used nicosil coated liners in some of its petrol engines in the early nineties - an engine that proceeded to burn large amounts of oil. Again BMW in your own country were ordered to replace the electric power steering units in its MIni brand and to give a lifetime warranty on them. Somehow and I don't understand why, BMW are still considered as a quality car

 

A more serious comparison would be between the British/European brands and the Japs - the Japs saw what we did and did it better.

Back in its day Rolls Royce was a cool motor they never broke down.

[xylophone]

On 3/19/2023 at 4:21 PM, LosLobo said:

The Japanese Car Industry and mainly Toyota, the company that made my last four cars, killed the British Motor Industry.

I too owned many British made cars and as was the norm in those days, they would suffer from many mechanical complaints, but we would always get them fixed.

 

And I disagree with your comment about the Japanese car industry and mainly Toyota killing the British motor industry, because the British motor industry actually killed itself by not changing.

 

The Japanese were producing quality cars which easily competed, and beat, those built in the UK, and the reason being was a man called Dr Edwards Deming.

 

He was an American sent to Japan after the Second World War to oversee the "reconstruction" of it and he homed in on the car industry and built on something which the Japanese already had started, called "quality circles", whereby, for example, a group of people who would install the engines would meet on a regular basis and discuss the problems they were having, and present solutions to upper management who were prepared to implement them.

 

They did this on every aspect of the car manufacture and assembly and therefore produced very reliable cars, something which the British motor industry was not particularly famous for. The reason for this was that managers and those in charge of them were the people that made their decisions, and their decisions could not be questioned, so nothing was done about poor quality.

 

And here is a little anecdote about quality: – Rank Xerox UK sold photocopiers, and had them imported from Japan, but then decided that they would produce their own and a factory was set up in Wales to do just this, and I got a chance to visit and inspect it.

 

So I was intrigued why it was closed down after a few years and there was a reason – – the main production and assembly line was still producing "dud" photocopiers at the end of the assembly line when they were being tested. So another assembly line was made and these machines were put back on to that particular assembly line and would go through the motions again, and if at the end of it the machine wasn't functioning properly, back it went. The Quality Circles doctrin had not been taken on board.............

 

So the idea of quality circles a la British industry really hadn't taken hold then. So the machines were once again imported from Japan.

 

The British motor car industry was rife with union problems, management problems and the inability to recognise where they had made mistakes, and indeed to even rectify them.
 

Edited May 21, 2023 by xylophone

[Lacessit]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:09 PM, steven100 said:

I think it's similar to what happened in Australia with Holden cars.  Disposable income gets tighter every year and jobs become redundant so the new car gets put on the backburner.

Also,  competition such as Korea Kia brands and a few others put pressure on Holden sales so eventually the sales numbers are so small that they close shop.    

IMO Hockey and Abbott killed the car industry in Australia. With our population, there was room for one carmaker. It was sacrificed on the altar of the global economy. Sticking with large fuel-guzzling models did not help either.

That altar was trashed during COVID, when nations suddenly realized supply chains from other nations were unreliable, and their national interests are better served by going back to self-sufficiency.

The operation was successful, a pity the patient died.

[stratocaster]

Between 1968 and 1970 Ford UK had four industrial disputes while BMC had 58. This has been attributed to the fact that Ford workers were salaried employers and BMC workers were paid piece rate. Management's policy was, if you need more money increase your output. This led to the situation of what we used to call the Friday cars. Everyone would go hell for leather assembling cars and parts to either increase their output or meet their weekly target. I was on the door fitting line and there was no way I was going to spend 20 minutes trying to get a door pressed from a worn out press to fit reasonably. As long as it opened and shut that was good enough for me.

[kwilco]

I haven't seen that video for years so here's my take.

firstly if you blame the Unions, you have completely misunderstood the situation......

You also need to realise that the British vehicle manufacturing by 2015 was bigger than ever in it's history. ... Post Brexit it is now back to the same level as in the 1950s.

 

. It is an uncomfortable fact to many that the UK never produced any good or successful cars. Even the ones that had "potential" were ruined by appalling management.

There is a popular misconception that it was the workforce that was to blame - this however overlooks that management were responsible for running the companies and this involved dealing with the workforce.

BMC/BL management referred to the workers as "the Mob" and spent most of their time creating a "mushroom farm" environment - keeping everyone in a dark and feeding them on "shoot". The production workers weren't even told things like the end of the Morris Minor production or the introduction of the Allegro. (Which BTW was delayed due to management not signing the CV joint contract because they were "out of office".

Quite apart from the resulting sub-par quality and reliability, the British motor industry and in particular BL failed to come up with product…..they spent nothing on market research compared to the Japanese and little on R&D, basically they had a bunch of elderly engineers who thought it was their job to decide what the public wanted or needed and then tell them they had the answer.