What is a higher power in AA?

[Andy F]

Dear friends, I came to AA in 1984 after twenty years of hard drinking. I loved the fellowship from my first meeting. Being an agnostic in AA turned out to be a big challenge. I felt unable to use any concept of a higher power as a helpful recovery tool. Eventually, I found an agnostic-friendly sponsor and my life was saved.

 

Over the years, I have observed many alcoholics come and go. How many walk away because they don't feel able to surrender to the suggested program of action? God or a higher power is mentioned in six of the twelve steps. One wonders how many avoid coming to AA because they see it as some kind of quasi-religion. 

 

I wrote this blog to try and demystify the question of what an effective higher power could be for someone that doesn't believe in God. AA works whether you believe in God or not. Its now 25 years since I last relapsed. I am now enjoying a contented and peaceful sobriety. I was a low-bottom drunk that came from the streets. I remain an agnostic who recreated their life in Alcoholics Anonymous. I hope you enjoy the blog:

 

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/what-is-a-higher-power/

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Andy F

[malathione]

2,800 mAh.

[malathione]

Just kidding. Truth be told, more power to you. Not an easy thing to do.

[Dazinoz]

AA is for quitters.

[klauskunkel]

Quote

What is a higher power in AA?

The Holy Spirit?

[Tropposurfer]

It can be the power mad, resentment ridden, crazy-as-a-loon chairman at any meeting lol ????????

[Dazinoz]

5 minutes ago, klauskunkel said:

The Holy Spirit?

Ah, but what is the holy spirit? I used to prefer JW Black but now prefer Jack Danials. 

[Tropposurfer]

I left because they kept serving stale bread egg sandwiches

[Tropposurfer]

I knew a fella who used to pray to a big ol' Morton Bay fig tree in Lavender Bay Park, Sydney.

[Tropposurfer]

Whatever or whomever it is its none of my business

[Tropposurfer]

Perhaps its more about; 'Contempt prior to investigation being the barrier to all spiritual growth.'

[klauskunkel]

14 minutes ago, klauskunkel said:

The Holy Spirit?

 

7 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

Ah, but what is the holy spirit? I used to prefer JW Black but now prefer Jack Danials. 

80 proof and up

[scorecard]

Interesting post.

 

I am not a believer and never will be.

 

When meetings/events etc., turn to 'god' 'jesus' I just sit and be quiet.  I've had a few occasions where the master of ceremones etc., have targeted me, pushing me / insisting i change my attitude and 'believe'.

 

Perhaps the worst was when my management consultancy company was appraoched to give extensive advice and redesign of a large organization structure.

 

The contract was signed, several preliminary meetings happened but I could never get an answer as to what products/services the company was involved in, but assurances that 'you' get a good surprise. I will admit I was hesitant whether to proceed with the work, but a big fee.

 

Day 1 - 50 people in the room from the client organization, new leader appears and motions for all to get down on their nkees to pray, 5 folks are called up to hold my hands and put their hands on my shoulders etc.

 

Leader now lordly thanks god for bringing me to their organization and tells god I have promised to bring new light to the organization. Turned out it was a US based 'save the Children' type organization.

 

At the end of day one 30 minutes of prayers with me again being the focus.

 

I totally respect all faiths but I didn't appreciate what had happened.  And it didn't bring me even slightly closer to being a believer.

 

Additional comment. At the several preliminary meetings 2 of the participants from the client organizational were very rude to my own staff and at one meeting, held at a hotel, unnecessarily quite abusive to the hotel staff who had done nthing wrong. No much for 'love they neighbor'.  

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, Dazinoz said:

AA is for quitters.

In the nicest way I'm sure you mean.

[AP2019]

Andy I am glad you are sober. And congratulations on 25 years.  I am a member myself - over 15 years and sober for 13. I struggled in the rooms and with my recovery until I accepted God as my higher power. Respectfully, I submit that you are leading people astray by deviating from the program. As you mentioned God is in many of the steps and really all over the big book. For example...

 

Page 59 - Made a decision to turn our will and our live over to the care of God as we understood Him (Step 3)

Why?

Page 68 - We trust infinite God rather than our finite selves

 

Please do not try to reinterpret the program. Either work the program or call it something else. Personally I have seen too many people relapse after 10 or more years. What was the common denominator? They trusted in themselves, or the rooms, or their sponsor and brothers rather than infinite God.

 

Peace.

[LaosLover]

I've also heard Higher Power referred to as your best, most evolved self.  

 

But I agree, most successfully long term AA people have that God component.

 

-Which is not an option for a lot of people; who should therefore check out curious sober.

[Andy F]

53 minutes ago, AP2019 said:

Andy I am glad you are sober. And congratulations on 25 years.  I am a member myself - over 15 years and sober for 13. I struggled in the rooms and with my recovery until I accepted God as my higher power. Respectfully, I submit that you are leading people astray by deviating from the program. As you mentioned God is in many of the steps and really all over the big book. For example...

 

Page 59 - Made a decision to turn our will and our live over to the care of God as we understood Him (Step 3)

Why?

Page 68 - We trust infinite God rather than our finite selves

 

Please do not try to reinterpret the program. Either work the program or call it something else. Personally I have seen too many people relapse after 10 or more years. What was the common denominator? They trusted in themselves, or the rooms, or their sponsor and brothers rather than infinite God.

 

Peace.

The General Service Office of AA in New York assured me that the AA program is open to "personal interpretation" I can assure you that many alcoholics have left AA or avoided trying the AA program because they felt unable to use God as a higher power. It is them that have been led astray by the sometimes rigid and closed -minded views of the more fundamentalist members

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Andy F said:

The General Service Office of AA in New York assured me that the AA program is open to "personal interpretation" I can assure you that many alcoholics have left AA or avoided trying the AA program because they felt unable to use God as a higher power. It is them that have been led astray by the sometimes rigid and closed -minded views of the more fundamentalist members

So it's your position that AA should change to accommodate them? 

 

I lot of guys come to AA and they think that because they have a "prescription", they should be able to smoke grass.  What about them? Should we change our standards to accommodate them as well?

 

Do we not already have enough institutions ruined in an effort to accommodate everyone?

 

To be clear, I have never seen any asked to leave AA because they were not "spiritual" enough, or even for smoking grass. As far as a Higher Power, I think the overriding attitude at meeting is; "fake it 'till you make it." 

 

While they may claim any number of things, far and away, most people leave AA because they want to get loaded. 

 

 

[Skeptic7]

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

I totally respect all faiths

Why❓

 

The Abrahamic BS...err "faiths" are ridiculous, as well as abhorrent. All the rest are ridiculous at best. I don't respect any faiths. Some people whom are faithful might be respectable, but not their subjective superstition.

 

In what other aspect of life does anyone conduct themselves based on faith in something absolutely unknown and unknowable? Blind faith, in other words. The only answer is, none. Zero. 

[Andy F]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So it's your position that AA should change to accommodate them? 

 

I lot of guys come to AA and they think that because they have a "prescription", they should be able to smoke grass.  What about them? Should we change our standards to accommodate them as well?

 

Do we not already have enough institutions ruined in an effort to accommodate everyone?

 

To be clear, I have never seen any asked to leave AA because they were not "spiritual" enough, or even for smoking grass. As far as a Higher Power, I think the overriding attitude at meeting is; "fake it 'till you make it." 

 

While they may claim any number of things, far and away, most people leave AA because they want to get loaded. 

 

 

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. If God works for you then great! A lot of sober members in AA don't believe in God. They pursue a spiritual awakening that doesn't require a believe in God. Those that pursue Buddhism are a case in point. The bottom line is that Bill always wanted to make AA ALL INCLUSIVE.  The spiritual principle of AA is that EVERYONE is welcome. The believers, atheists, agnostics and freethinkers. "The ONLY requirement for AA .membership is a desire to stop drinking"

Any other position is not AA. It's fundamentalism. Why AA even embraces the AA fundamentalists. "Live and let Live" If I helped to convince a cynical newcomer that it's not compulsory to believe in God to get sober and stay sober, if my blog convinces them that there are a whole load of other higher powers in AA that are just as effective then it was worth writing. You're a member of AA if you say you are. Irrespective of your personal belief system. 

[scorecard]

33 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Why❓

 

The Abrahamic BS...err "faiths" are ridiculous, as well as abhorrent. All the rest are ridiculous at best. I don't respect any faiths. Some people whom are faithful might be respectable, but not their subjective superstition.

 

In what other aspect of life does anyone conduct themselves based on faith in something absolutely unknown and unknowable? Blind faith, in other words. The only answer is, none. Zero. 

Good points, my initial words are less than clear so I need to change/clarify  my comment.

 

I really meant 'I respect the right of others to believe, whatever faith that might be, but only if there's no violence and no disrespect in any way of others and no harrassment of others in any way'. 

 

But I am not a believer. 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by scorecard

[scorecard]

14 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Good points, my initial words are less than clear so I need to change/clarify  my comment.

 

I really meant 'I respect the right of others to believe, whatever faith that might be, but only if there's no violence and no disrespect in any way of others and no harrassment of others in any way'. 

 

But I am not a believer. 

 

And I strongly believe I have the right to reject pushing / harrassment by others to become a believer. 

[likerdup1]

Let's take a look at what The AA Book (The Big Book) says about God/Higher Power/Power Greater.

 

One thing is certain. AA literature very specifically points out the HUMAN POWER DID NOT SOLVE THEIR PROBLEM OF ALCOHOLISM.

 

1. AA does not provide a method for "strengthening the human will" to fight alcoholism
2. The 12 steps are not designed to help someone exercise greater "self discipline"
3. AA does not provide a method for alcoholics to rely on other human beings to solve the alcohol problem.
4. AA does not encourage using only the fellowship meetings to get recovery from alcoholism ( relying on human beings for recovery)

 

AA does provide a method for alcoholics to access a Power Greater than themselves. This method is called the 12 step program of recovery. Where alcoholics are powerless to abstain on their own will power or self discipline they find the needed power from a God of ones own understanding by doing the 12 steps.

 

Bear in mind that the word God is a term used to describe ones own personal conception of a Higher Power. This is supported all through AA's basic text.

 

Bills Story:

My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "WHY DON'T YOU CHOOSE YOUR OWN CONCEPTION OF GOD?"

 

Big Book: Chapter We Agnostics

Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be
a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power? Well, that’s exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to
be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God.

 

Big Book: Chapter We Agnostics

Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reas-
sure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.

 

Big Book: Chapter We Agnostics

Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another’s conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him.

 

The ABC's (read at most all meetings are the end of "How It Works"

 

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
 

Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to
God as we understood Him

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1

[likerdup1]

Please, any members of AA. I beg you to be considerate and understand that someone may be reading this WHO REALLY NEEDS HELP with alcoholism.

These constant arguments which have been precipitated by Andy F's repeated postings of fringe and alternate views on doing the AA program are:

1) Not doing any service to AA

2) Not doing any service to someone who might find this forum looking for ACTUAL HELP.

3) Not a healthy introduction to AA for anyone reading here new to AA.

I would kindly ask Mr. Andy F to consider that his views are

1) Not the norm as most people in AA find a Higher Power/God of their own understanding.

2) Have precipitated argument and dissension (this is against this forums rules!)

I will reiterate what I've said.

THIS FORUM IS FOR PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP and any talk of AA should be offering HELP! Not views other than what AA literature plainly states. AA literature is the foundation for our program of recovery.

It is only Andy F's opinion that people "get driven" away from AA about talk of God. He in no way can know the true statistics on this. From my experience and many that have gone before this happens rarely Especially if the group is a healthy group and explains the word God is used to describe ONES OWN PERSONAL CONCEPTION.

This forum is here to help people with a drinking problem.

Any postings concerning AA IMHO should be generic, normal, mainstream posts designed for ATTRACTION rather than promotion of fringe or alternate methods of the AA program such as "agnostic" methods or personal "interpretations".

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1

[Lacessit]

It's extremely doubtful there is a higher power. There is only the power within individuals themselves to change, and the self-discipline to do it.

Having said that, if people wish to achieve the desired outcomes by believing in something they cannot see, hear or touch, that's up to them.

50% of Americans believe in angels. Christians believe in miracles.

If I was to be transported back to the Middle Ages with a laptop and a virtual reality headset, people there would regard such equipment and the experience as a miracle. Even a smartphone would get the same reception.

Science has explained a lot of things thus far. There are many items it has not addressed yet. It will, while human curiosity exists.

I have tapered down from reasonably heavy drinking over the years, to zero. I did not have to go to AA meetings to do it, just acknowledgment it was harmful, and self-discipline.

I can understand some people need the group approval and support of AA meetings to achieve abstinence. It is far more probable there is a group dynamic at work, than any "higher power".

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, likerdup1 said:

Any postings concerning AA IMHO should be generic, normal, mainstream posts designed for ATTRACTION rather than promotion of fringe or alternate methods of the AA program such as "agnostic" methods or personal "interpretations".

You should not be posting comment which permits only one pathway to abstinence from alcohol.

ASEAN permits a wide range of opinions on any thread, you are attempting to circumscribe said opinions. One hand clapping.

[likerdup1]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You should not be posting comment which permits only one pathway to abstinence from alcohol.

ASEAN permits a wide range of opinions on any thread, you are attempting to circumscribe said opinions. One hand clapping.

Show me where I say there is only one pathway? I am only speaking up for AA which does not in any way shape or form say it has a monopoly on the pathway toward abstinence from alcohol. AA does not claim to be the only path toward abstinence. This is generally understood my most all members. I think you have misunderstood sir. The original OP has his personal "interpretation" of AA which is outside the mainstream understanding of how to do the 12 step program. This is all I'm concerned with. He has every right to say what he wants. Just as I have the right to point out that it is not mainstream and is fringe opinion.

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1

[VocalNeal]

On 4/20/2023 at 9:24 PM, Andy F said:

what an effective higher power could be for someone that doesn't believe in God.

Could be:

-Aliens

-Buddha 

- Et al.

 

At least one other organization asks if participant believe in a supreme being. There is no further questioning of what or who that supreme being is.

 

One can always give affirmative answers to AA questions without actually believing. Just tell them what they want to hear.

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

Show me where I say there is only one pathway? I am only speaking up for AA which does not in any way shape or form say it has a monopoly on the pathway toward abstinence from alcohol. AA does not claim to be the only path toward abstinence. This is generally understood my most all members. I think you have misunderstood sir.

Maybe I have, but it sounded to me like you were dictating to the forum how we all should think.

[likerdup1]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Maybe I have, but it sounded to me like you were dictating to the forum how we all should think.

I understand sir. I try to be precise in my writings. I understand it may have "sounded" that way. But it's not what I wrote. Thank you.

Edited April 23, 2023 by likerdup1