Vaping THC : lung damage?

[JackGats]

For decades I have had outbreaks of chronic bronchitis at regular intervals. Usually the symtoms (having to clear my throat all the time) go away after a few days' use of a Symbicort turbohaler. This time the turbohaler seems hardly to work at all.

 

The only thing I've been doing new of late is taking a puff at a Ghost Jack Herer vaping pen. I've been doing so 4 or 5 days a week, taking a single puff each time. I feel no burning nor bronchitis symptoms right after puffing. In fact the symtoms tend to come later in the day or at night. Question: could this modest vaping habit be the cause of my lung condition? I've read horror story about how harmful, even lethal, vitamin E acetate (a common additive in THC oil vaping) can be.

[bamnutsak]

50 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Question: could this modest vaping habit be the cause of my lung condition?

Yes, especially given your decades-long lung issues (bronchitis). It could also be the poor air quality here in Thailand?

 

50 minutes ago, JackGats said:

I've read horror story about how harmful, even lethal, vitamin E acetate (a common additive in THC oil vaping) can be.

And yet you continue to vape? How odd.

 

I guess you could stop vaping for a few weeks and see if your symptoms cease or continue?

 

If they cease, voila. If they continue see a doctor.

 

Where did you buy this Ghost Disposable vape pen? Are you sure it is legit? Most of these have a method to verify authenticity, along with detail lab/testing results. And many states in the U.S. require and publish lab/testing results.

 

 

edited to add: Just to be clear such a device would of course be illegal here in Thailand. Both because it contains extracted concentrated THC, and it is a vaporizer. So not sure how the mods will come down on this subject/thread?

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by bamnutsak

[mommysboy]

Likely air pollution is the most common cause.

 

Vaping THC (as distinct from nicotine vaping) has been implicated in acute lung injuries in rare instances. 

 

But you use it so sparingly that it can't possibly be the cause.

 

Acute lung injuries from vaping are rather rare, not even proven, and tend to occur in young people who consume industrial amounts, often where mixed drug use is a factor.

[JackGats]

46 minutes ago, bamnutsak said:

 

 

...

edited to add: Just to be clear such a device would of course be illegal here in Thailand. Both because it contains extracted concentrated THC, and it is a vaporizer. So not sure how the mods will come down on this subject/thread?

 

 

The TH in THC was for "tetrahydro", not for "Thailand". Vaping is, as you rightly point out, illegal in Thailand.

Edited April 30, 2023 by JackGats

[Jingthing]

So you're vaping oil not dry herb?

If so why not try dry herb on lower temps so no clouds of vape?

[JackGats]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So you're vaping oil not dry herb?

If so why not try dry herb on lower temps so no clouds of vape?

Ok, so there's that possibility too. I'll shop around for such a device. Would it then still fall under the vaping ban? 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Ok, so there's that possibility too. I'll shop around for such a device. Would it then still fall under the vaping ban? 

I can't answer that.

[bamnutsak]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

So you're vaping oil not dry herb?

If so why not try dry herb on lower temps so no clouds of vape?

 

1 hour ago, JackGats said:

Ok, so there's that possibility too. I'll shop around for such a device. Would it then still fall under the vaping ban? 

 

 

Can't say this would make sense at all, given the underlying, decades-long lung condition.

 

You'd have to vape four times the amount of dry-herb (flower) to get the same effects. The Ghost disposable has 85% - 90% THC. Generally speaking flower is 20%. (yes, yes, we know some flower is 5% THC, and some ranges into the higher 20's.)

 

I would stop vaping immediately, and consult a physician, especially given...

 

3 hours ago, JackGats said:

the turbohaler seems hardly to work at all

Have you been diagnosed with COPD? Or some other condition?

 

 

[JackGats]

3 minutes ago, bamnutsak said:

 

 

 

 

 

Have you been diagnosed with COPD? Or some other condition?

 

 

No COPD. My breathing is normal. It's just pflegm building up in my throat. I've started on anti-acids in case it was reflux this time. But if feels identical to what I felt whenever I got episodes of bronchitis. I'm not sure reflux can mimic that 100%. Tends to be worse when lying down though.

[d4dang]

I bought a Dabwoods online. First device I like after trying many others which contained flavours which bothered my allergies. I vape lightly and one lasted a month. BTW I have  noticed BIB vaping.

Edited April 30, 2023 by d4dang
grammar

[d4dang]

36 minutes ago, JackGats said:

No COPD. My breathing is normal. It's just pflegm building up in my throat. I've started on anti-acids in case it was reflux this time. But if feels identical to what I felt whenever I got episodes of bronchitis. I'm not sure reflux can mimic that 100%. Tends to be worse when lying down though.

Maybe you should try an expectorant. I would suggest oregano oil, but there are many over the counter. I have noticed more symptoms in this heat and smog myself.

[mommysboy]

Honestly I don't know why Vaping has even mentioned as a causative factor here, especially with air pollution being so bad over the last few months. Viral/ bacterial infection, chronic bronchitis, acid reflux, allergies are all likely more significant factors, than one or two puffs on a vape pen now and then. 

 

Obviously smoking weed is legal in Thailand, so why not do that if you really need it. After all we're only talking about an insignificant amount.

 

Ps: the symptoms you describe could be post-nasal drip. Do you have an allergy at present, eg, dry weather allergy, reaction to smog?

Edited April 30, 2023 by mommysboy

[JackGats]

20 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

 

Ps: the symptoms you describe could be post-nasal drip. Do you have an allergy at present, eg, dry weather allergy, reaction to smog?

Thought of that too, especially since the symtoms go away with cold tablets containing tripolidine (an antihistaminic) + pseudoephedrine. But if I'm not wrong this combination can also act on the lungs.

 

Alas, post-nasal drip seems to be something one can do little about. As to allergies, I'm anxious to see what happens when I get out of Thailand where I can be without aircon and/or ceiling fan.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by JackGats
added pic

[SamuiGrower]

The truth of it is always inconvenient, especially when preaching to the choir. Nobody that smokes cannabis in any form should delude themselves into thinking the “medicinal” benefits of smoking, in any form, outweighs the risks of inhaling anything. Cannabis smoking is directly associated with increased risks of bronchitis, lung infections, chronic cough and increased mucus buildup. Sounds like pretty much all your symptoms. 

 

So the argument I see and read is, ‘no combustion, no tar, it’s cleaner, it’s purer….” All true, with the exception of dabbing (wax, shatter, sauce, sugar, rosin….). BUT, you are still inhaling an irritant, a hydrocarbon at that (in the case of dabs and all its form). There are abundant articles that mention the horrors of inhaling the diluents: PG, PEG, T. Acetate in vape carts but the actual constituents, I.e distillate or oil or flower is of equal concern. 

 

Vaping may be better than burning a joint (still the number mode of consumption) but how much better? I have discussed this with MDs: GP’s, cardiologists, pulmonologists and oncologists. Is anyone surprised that none of them advise their patients to smoke anything? Inhaling anything, especially a purified hydrocarbon diluted with terpenes for viscosity (The latest solvent less SOP is rosin+terpenes) can’t have any positive long term benefits. In 2022, 80% of the vape carts tested were contaminated with residual solvents and pesticides. 

 

I smoke cannabis (in all its forms) and will continue to smoke because I enjoy it. It’s not “my medicine”, it’s my enjoyment and my business. I don’t tell myself it’s good for me or the ‘positive effects’ outweigh the possible deleterious effects.  As we all know, there are many delivery systems of cannabis. As a person of science I can tell you vaping or dabbing will never be the acceptable mode of delivery for any of the medicinal attributes of cannabinoids. 

[bamnutsak]

22 minutes ago, SamuiGrower said:

In 2022, 80% of the vape carts tested were contaminated with residual solvents and pesticides. 

Not sure if this is what you are referencing?

 

California Lab Finds Nearly 80% Of Illicit Cannabis Vape Cartridges Are 'Unfit For Consumption'

 

https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/articles/california-lab-finds-nearly-80-of-illicit-cannabis-vape-cartridges-are-unfit-for-consumption-312272

 

 

 

 

 

[SamuiGrower]

Bam, thanks for the link. I was citing a statistic and no specific article, though just as many legal, licensed extractors are failing at that rate for the same reasons. We can liken the term “illicit” to any extractor operating within an unregulated market, like right here.
 

I neglected to mention, the very nature of cannabis vape liquid is a distillate extraction, a lipophilic (oil loving/oil soluble)  compound. If anyone has ever touched some, you know how hard it is to get off without alcohol or other solvent. Water does nothing.

 

Imagine that aerosolized in your lungs, attached to the mucosa lining. Hard to imagine asking the question, “is this doing any harm?”

[bamnutsak]

17 minutes ago, SamuiGrower said:

I was citing a statistic and no specific article, though just as many legal, licensed extractors are failing at that rate for the same reasons.

Can you share any background which justifies such a "citation"?

 

22 minutes ago, SamuiGrower said:

We can liken the term “illicit” to any extractor operating within an unregulated market, like right here.

By "right here" you mean Thailand? Yeah, I wouldn't buy a cart manufactured here.

 

 

1 hour ago, SamuiGrower said:

I don’t tell myself it’s good for me or the ‘positive effects’ outweigh the possible deleterious effects.

I don't think this makes you unique, rather you're in the majority with the rest of us.

 

 

1 hour ago, SamuiGrower said:

As a person of science I can tell you vaping or dabbing will never be the acceptable mode of delivery for any of the medicinal attributes of cannabinoids. 

For some 'medical' applications requiring higher doses, and for younger and older patients, vaping is actually a decent delivery system. And a "person of science" usually never says "never".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[still kicking]

5 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Likely air pollution is the most common cause.

 

Vaping THC (as distinct from nicotine vaping) has been implicated in acute lung injuries in rare instances. 

 

But you use it so sparingly that it can't possibly be the cause.

 

Acute lung injuries from vaping are rather rare, not even proven, and tend to occur in young people who consume industrial amounts, often where mixed drug use is a factor.

Is Vaping Bad For You? Side Effects, Risks, Nicotine, Marijuana, More (healthline.com)

[SamuiGrower]

23 minutes ago, bamnutsak said:

Can you share any background which justifies such a "citation"?

I owned a type I grow (1800 plants) and dispensary with two SCE extraction labs and a SPD distillation lab with ethanol extraction and rotary evap. Because of demand we would co-op buy harvests from other growers only to find after extraction the distillates failed microbial or pesticide analysis. We were always spot on with residual solvents though. 
There are a steady stream of articles in the media about incorrect Mg dosing for edibles, failed COA lab results, mislabeling of ingredients, microbial and pesticide failure. One doesn’t have to look very long to find any one of these to cite.
 

 

23 minutes ago, bamnutsak said:

For some 'medical' applications requiring higher doses, and for younger and older patients, vaping is actually a decent delivery system. And a "person of science" usually never says "never".

I don’t want to be antagonistic but maybe you can cite an article, white paper or journal that uses “medical vaping” as a delivery system for young patients and older patients. Really? I’ll stand by my ‘never’ but wish to be enlightened and proven wrong. Unless you are referring to ‘inhalers’? Different story
 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by SamuiGrower

[wombat]

9 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

 

But you use it so sparingly that it can't possibly be the cause.

 

one wishes one was a one puff screamer like the OP

[Oww]

For some reason cannabis consumption has been stuck in the primitive dark ages for...ages.

When they extract essential oils from a flower do they light the whole flower on fire? No, they heat it gently. What's left over in the bowl or from the joint when you combust (smoke) weed? The answer is white colored, wispy ash. That's because the black <deleted> went inside YOU. What's left when you use a dry herb/flower vaporizer is black colored, dense material. This is the healthy-er option. That doesn't mean it's healthy. You are still sucking in hot, oily vapor. But it's way better than setting it on fire and sucking it in which is just plain stupid. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Oww

[sezze]

"I've read horror story about how harmful, even lethal, vitamin E acetate (a common additive in THC oil vaping) can be. "

 

Vaping itself causes no harm ( a lot less then smoking ). This includes THC. However , the horror stories are true since you can NEVER vape oils . Vaping oil causes a condition called "popcorn lung" and as far as i know it is irreversible damage . Vitamin E in this also causes this and should not be vaped at any time. 

[JustThisOnePostOnly]

If you have any kind of lung issues something to remember is that you can cook with herb and achieve spectacular results with just a little bit of care.

 

Any recipe that has you preheating a pan with olive oil is worthy of a fridge magnet.

[Henryford]

Who would have guessed breathing in hot toxic gases on a regular basis might cause breathing problems !

[bamnutsak]

13 hours ago, Oww said:

What's left when you use a dry herb/flower vaporizer is black colored, dense material.

Not in my experience (I use 190 C), greenish/brown, but this depends on the temperature and the device of course.

 

I've never weighed the biomass before and after.

 

Some say 60% is retained after dry herb vaping, and of the 40% "consumed" 20% (assumes 100% vaporization, which obviously doesn't happen) is THC.

 

Is dry herb vaporizing 100% safe? Of course not. No is making that assertion.

 

43 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Who would have guessed breathing in hot toxic gases on a regular basis might cause breathing problems !

Welcome to Bangkok.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

Who would have guessed breathing in hot toxic gases on a regular basis might cause breathing problems !

Who says the gases are toxic?

[KhunLA]

There's a risk factor with any chemical inhaled, ingested into the body.

 

Plenty of chain smokers of whatever that didn't die of respiratory ailments.  If relief of decades of pain, or living circumstances is only a sacrifice of a couple years life expectancy, or not, then possibly well worth any risk involved, or not.

 

I'm certainly not giving up BBQ, beer, butter or sugar, so a little ganga now & then isn't going to do me in any earlier, hopefully.  Not after being an habitual smoker for about a decade, decades ago.

 

Some of the krap movies I've been watching lately, you have to stoned to tolerate.  And still didn't help.  At best, put me to sleep early and out of my misery ????

[SamuiGrower]

I was planning on posting this under its own tag/topic, but am opting to post it, this way, after reading the numerous postings on the relationship of cannabis to cancer or cannabis in relation to health, be it negative or positive.

 

 

I have reviewed the posts on “Cannabis and cancer”, of which there are many and appear time-to-time. This is a reoccurring theme on this forum that presents itself in many different forms:

 

• Palliative care: for chemo symptoms, nausea, loss of appetite
• Alternative treatments: other than chemo or typical ontological protocols
• Vaping vs. smoking
• Cannabis cures cancer

 

The responses/posts fall, overwhelmingly, into the following categories:

 

• Smoking/vaping cannabis cures cancer and is NOT carcinogenic
• Science denialism (complete with some ‘other’ left field cure)
• Google and YouTube myths
• See a trained MD/physician posts

 

My take away:

 

Science denial is pervasive, with some not willing to consider smoking cannabis (conventionally or vaping) as having known, scientifically proven, carcinogenic compounds. Some, double down and say, ‘science is often wrong, it’s semantics, “a game of words”, never been a known cancer case, depends what the definition of ‘is’ is, etc. 

 

A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on.

 

What-about-ism: YouTube says this, Google says that. There is a reason why academics, colleges and universities won’t (can’t) use general internet searches for citing anything: misinformation, disinformation, and just plain lies. Have a medical question? Look at CDC, NIH, FDA, AMA, News-Medical, ACS and a host of others. NOT YouTube or Google. The boundary between truth/fact/science and SEO positioning is very blurry and getting worse. If you have an anti-cancer ‘widget’ in the game, you can pay for search engine ranking. Think about that.

 

We all love cannabis ????. At least, for those of us in this forum, of which I am one. Some refuse to accept that it is not a cure for all that ails you and can’t accept that Mary Jane can be bad in combustible form. Anything you smoke can/will be bad for you.  Habitual smokers (of anything) have higher risks and occasional smokers, lower risks. Any MD will support this fact. And, yes, we all know the smoker of 50 years that’s healthy as an ox. This is evidence of nothing. A sample study of one, that wins no debate or settles any dispute. Just another ‘good genes’ anecdote.

 

The truth:

 

Smoking anything through conventional combustion has carcinogenic compounds. Eliminate the tar, residues and other nasties doesn’t make it safer it only minimizes the dose of carcinogenic compounds that are cumulative.

 

Smoking or vaping cannabis has carcinogenic compounds as well, regardless of temperature or filtration (bubblers, bongs, etc.) In fact, smoking or vaporization of concentrated hydrocarbons (dabs in all its forms) has an increased set of risks outside the parameters of cigarette smoking.

 

For palliative care: nausea or loss of appetite- smoke away. Whatever makes your quality of life better in the moment. More power to you.

 

As a scientist, I was ‘chastised’ for posting, “smoking/vaping cannabis will NEVER  be an accepted delivery system for cannabinoids as a medical treatment/protocol”. I stand by that statement, scientifically. 

 

Medically, cannabis will prove out to be effective in the treatment of many, many diseases - we should have no doubts. Cannabinoids will be separated into its fractions (CBD, THC and all its isomers, CBG, CBN, CBC and the like) and quantifiable doses with known efficacy will be administered through: ingestion, tinctures, sub-dermals, inhalers, oromucosal sprays, etc. There are already well known patented and multi-National cannabis pharmaceuticals that are making huge inroads in treatments. Sativex (and other Nabiximols), Nabilone, Dronabinol and Cesamet, to name a few. None are prescribed for cancer or tumors. There is a clinical trial, being conducted at present in the UK on cannabis and glioblastomas (brain tumors). The modality of dosing is NOT by smoking/vaping.

 

Looking for a ‘carcinogen free’ way of using cannabis? Eat it. Edibles, medibles, tinctures, etc. In fact, ingestion is a good mode of dosing albeit ‘first pass metabolism’ through the liver, greatly diminishes the effective dose. In the case of THC, ingestion produces a much stronger psychoactive response as the liver converts the THC to a more powerful form (11-OH-THC). A better absorption, bypassing first-pass-metabolism, can be achieved by using MCT oil (medium chain triglycerides) as the carrier.

 

If you have cancer, yes, you should first consult MD’s in the medical world that will inform you of known protocols, treatments and outcomes in the conventional treatments of known cancers. After you have been fully informed and you still wish to seek alternative treatments, do so, knowing your full array of options.

 

Alternative treatments:

 

RSO (Rick Simpson Oil) has a huge body of anecdotal evidence in the cure of cancer and tumors, so overwhelming, it can not be ignored. Yes, many of those testimonials are on YouTube and Forums alike as well as multiple websites. 

 

Other botanicals or cancer ‘cures’. Drill down and do your research. Many of these herbs/botanicals pose ‘other’ risks, especially to your endocrine system, CNS, GI system and enzyme synthesis. Many that I have researched, at minimum, lower blood pressure, affect blood clotting and lower blood glucose. They all ‘promise’ the same thing: positive lab studies (all in vivo of course) and the hope of a cure. The history of modern pharmacology originated through the use of botanics and pharmacokinetics show promise everyday in the use of natural plants. But please, exercise caution and first check with the FDA about any contraindications as to ingestion and use of anything. Remember, without human clinical trials, all claims remain unsubstantiated and purely anecdotal.

 

I find it curious that studies that show ‘possible cancer curing’ phytochemicals and antioxidants from say, cruciferous vegetables, like Broccoli and cabbage, never lead to  internet crazes that promote broccoli shakes that ‘cure’ cancer. Instead, it’s some leaf from an exotic fruit that is touted as the newest cure-all, usually replete with an infomercial, testimonial and advertisement for purchase. “Studies suggest that it could, might, may, possibly be effective……” Usually, if we are lucky enough that the medical profession has taken a remote interest in these botanicals, and yes, many show incredible anti-cancer effects (apoptosis), most of those studies are done on cells, ‘in vivo’, in lab Petri dishes that somehow, “jump the shark” and are then promoted on the net as a cure. It’s a huge leap!

 

You should be aware there is an ample amount of medical quackery in the treatment of cancer by MD’s as well. These fringe doctors promote risky, expensive, unfounded and medically unrecognized treatments. Many hide behind their “fight” against the system (FDA, AMA, etc.) to distract from the controversy of their questionable treatments.

 

Conclusions:

 

Smoking as a modality of cannabinoid delivery as medicine: Unlikely/never.

 

If you say, ‘…I smoke a few hits and it makes me sleep or it cures my insomnia’ and that’s proof of smoking as medicine. Or, it cures my anxiety or it gives me hunger……then you have discovered the narrow bandwidth to make your argument, BUT it is narrow at that.

 

Cannabis WILL be an accepted medical treatment but not in the buds-to-bong approach. It will go through short-path fractional distillation or HPLC, and the slices of cannabinoids and isomers will be processed. Synthetic cannabinoids will predominate pharmacology and the medical world because of their metered, consistent and measurable quantification that evades naturally grown plant cannabinoids due to varying and unpredictable growing conditions.

 

Keep it real and be informed. Try not to settle for the first ‘search’ that supports your theory, as much as you would like to believe it. Do a “360” approach and research as much as you can. Look at what you are researching from all angles and viewpoints. Truth/facts/science is not negotiable or relative based upon your perception or viewpoint. There is only one truth as inconvenient as it might be at times.

[BritManToo]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Plenty of chain smokers of whatever that didn't die of respiratory ailments.  If relief of decades of pain, or living circumstances is only a sacrifice of a couple years life expectancy, or not, then possibly well worth any risk involved, or not.

Not really comparable as most smokers are doing 40-80 a day, while cannabis users are doing 1/2-2 a day.

So expect the smokers to be at least 40x more at risk.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, SamuiGrower said:

Cannabis WILL be an accepted medical treatment but not in the buds-to-bong approach. It will go through short-path fractional distillation or HPLC, and the slices of cannabinoids and isomers will be processed. Synthetic cannabinoids will predominate pharmacology and the medical world because of their metered, consistent and measurable quantification that evades naturally grown plant cannabinoids due to varying and unpredictable growing conditions.

Big pharma need their cut for it to be OK.