Executor of expat will duties

[scorecard]

On 5/23/2023 at 6:36 AM, Dante99 said:

Which embassies?  Certainly not all.

Correct. Some work under strict policies of their home countries that they don't provide this service to their citizens. 

I'm aware of an incident where a farang took his partly completed personal will to his embassy and asked:

 

- The embassy staff to confirm the way he had written the will was legal etc.

- The embassy staff to  witness the will.

 

Embassy refused totally on both points.

 

He complained to the gov't agency involved in his home country, they refused to listen.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by scorecard

[TimeMachine]

31 minutes ago, CMBob said:

You'd do your partner a favor by also having a second original Will in Thai as either that or an English Will with certified Thai translation will be needed for Thai probate.  The video you refer to may be comforting to your partner but it won't have any effect with a Thai court.

Typically, the Thai probate process takes about 6 months and, presuming you desire to have your partner have adequate funds during that time period, you'll have to figure out some method (separate bank account for the partner, cash in a safe, whatever) to provide for that.  Absent your partner getting lucky that presentation of your Will (in Thai or English with Thai translation) to your bank manager will cause some release of funds up front, your partner will have to wait at least a couple+ months before probate will help to dislodge your bank funds.

Yeah.  I should do the translation ahead of time.  Any recommendations.  On who and fair cost? 

[TimeMachine]

26 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Correct. Some work under strict policies of their home countries that they don't provide this service to their citizens. 

I'm aware of an incident where a farang took his partly completed personal will to his embassy and asked:

 

- The embassy staff to confirm the way he had written the will was legal etc.

- The embassy staff to  witness the will.

 

Embassy refused totally on both points.

 

He complained to the gov't agency involved in his home country, they refused to listen.

 

 

Australian embassy is pretty poor when it comes down to helping their citizens.  My own personal example and I hear others.  I thought embassies were supposed to act in the interests of their own.  But they offer limited services and avoid any responsibilities.  There is no recall. Much like police,  military,  customs, immigration.  They have no one above them. you get what you get. I'm an advocate for a non profit private company to run as Australia's new embassy,  run by the people,  for the people.  First order of Business.  Free JA. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, TimeMachine said:

Yeah.  I should do the translation ahead of time.  Any recommendations.  On who and fair cost? 

I believe various of the Embassies will provide their citizens with a list of translation agencies they recommend or at least list. I'd get that list from my Embassy, and then use one of those.

 

[CMBob]

1 hour ago, TimeMachine said:

Yeah.  I should do the translation ahead of time.  Any recommendations.  On who and fair cost? 

Sorry, can't help there.  The US Consulate does have a list allegedly certified translators which you can find here (it's about the 4th item down titled "Translation Service Providers in Chiangmai...":

https://search.usembassy.gov/search?affiliate=dos_emb_eap_bangkok&query=translator

[TimeMachine]

I have sent an email ,Thai and English, to Pattaya court.  Asking for probate process and approved translation service recommendation. 

 

See if I get a reply...

[jonwilly]

When I did my Thai Will, with Star Visa I was requested to accompany two of their lawyers to the local Ampure Office.

There we registered the Will and both lawyers where required to sign documents along with a Senior official of the Ampure.

I was told by all three that my named administrator would now be able to go to my bank and obtain access to withdraw and money he required on production of the document provided by the Ampure.

Following comments on this thread I today went to my bank, UOB, and asked about the procedure, that they would allow my named administrator access to my bank accounts.

They hummed and hawed then after consulting a more senior lady said NO.

OK I will withdraw all my money and transfer to my SCB account.

After a discussion the lady’s told me to bring my Administrator to the bank and they would do the paperwork for him to be allowed to withdraw money from my accounts on my passing on.

This is acceptable to me and now I have to get him to the bank on working day next week.

John

[CMBob]

50 minutes ago, jonwilly said:

....After a discussion the lady’s told me to bring my Administrator to the bank and they would do the paperwork for him to be allowed to withdraw money from my accounts on my passing on....

Presuming you rely on the bank method to sustain an annual extension at Immigration, I'd be at least watchful that the bank doesn't somehow alter your account that might cause an extension problem (such as turning the account into a joint account or whatever).

It would be nice if a Thai law was passed that would allow one to simply name a beneficiary on a bank account.....but I'm dreaming.

[Mike Teavee]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:21 PM, kingstonkid said:

OK silly question time.

 

How do you handle things if you get a pension form another country or have investments in the country.  Do you need both a thai and Canadian will can the same executor action it?

   

I don’t know about Canada but UK & US allow you to specify international assets in your domestic will

 

HOWEVER I can only imagine how hard this would be to get through the Thai courts so would recommend having a separate Will for your Thai assets. 
 

I don’t see why you couldn’t have the same Executor in both wills but unless the Executor is willing to travel between the 2 to deal with banks/courts etc… Might be better to have separate (local) Execs. 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[terryq]

The question as to whether a bank allows money to be withdrawn on presentation of a will arises quite often on this forum.

 

I don't believe that a 'pay on death' mandate is in use here or even if it's legal, so that's not available.

 

A bank may recognise a valid will when it sees one but it has no way of knowing it is the last will made by the deceased, which is of course the only valid will. Therefore a bank is correct if they do not release funds on the sight of any will.

 

Actual case... Many years ago a friend who I had known for many years died he had been previously married then divorced then remarried, all in Thailand. About a week after his death got a call from a friend of ours who worked at the bank saying someone was trying to access the deceased account and it was not his wife, who he also knew. It was his first wife with an old will. I wont go into what happened when current wife us and others turned up at the bank. I learnt a lot of derogatory Thai phases.  Result was ex wife did not get the money.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, jonwilly said:

Following comments on this thread I today went to my bank, UOB, and asked about the procedure, that they would allow my named administrator access to my bank accounts.

They hummed and hawed then after consulting a more senior lady said NO.

Yikes!  Good that you followed up to check with UOB as to what they were actually going to do...

 

Bad that your hired Thai attorneys didn't work that out and verify the outcome as part of the supposed service they provided.

 

But even with switching to SCB or any other Thai banking company, there's always going to be a risk given the vague/loose way the Thai banks seem to have this structured.

 

One bank manager may give you the answer you  want today... But 5 or 10 or 20 years from now when your admin actually needs to use the amphur will at the bank, who knows what manager will be in charge there then and what policy they will follow...

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, terryq said:

The question as to whether a bank allows money to be withdrawn on presentation of a will arises quite often on this forum.

 

I don't believe that a 'pay on death' mandate is in use here or even if it's legal, so that's not available.

 

A bank may recognise a valid will when it sees one but it has no way of knowing it is the last will made by the deceased, which is of course the only valid will. Therefore a bank is correct if they do not release funds on the sight of any will.

 

Actual case... Many years ago a friend who I had known for many years died he had been previously married then divorced then remarried, all in Thailand. About a week after his death got a call from a friend of ours who worked at the bank saying someone was trying to access the deceased account and it was not his wife, who he also knew. It was his first wife with an old will. I wont go into what happened when current wife us and others turned up at the bank. I learnt a lot of derogatory Thai phases.  Result was ex wife did not get the money.

In your example above, you don't specify  that that case involved an actual amphur will... where the original certified will is kept on file at the amphur office.

 

But in the more general case assuming it was an amphur will, it would have been up to the will maker to revoke/cancel whatever prior will he had on file with the amphur and replace it with a new one reflecting his current/latest circumstances.

 

I don't see any risk/flaw in the amphur will process regarding all that... unless the will maker simply drops the ball.

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

would recommend having a separate Will for your Thai assets. 

The standard advice is to have separate wills specific to whatever individual countries the willmaker has assets in....  And, to have a local executor in the countries involved.

 

[terryq]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

In your example above, you don't specify  that that case involved an actual amphur will... where the original certified will is kept on file at the amphur office.

 

But in the more general case assuming it was an amphur will, it would have been up to the will maker to revoke/cancel whatever prior will he had on file with the amphur and replace it with a new one reflecting his current/latest circumstances.

 

I don't see any risk/flaw in the amphur will process regarding all that... unless the will maker simply drops the ball.

 

If you are living in the same area you could do it also wherever you are you could collect and destroy any previous copies.

 

However, in law the latest last written legitimate will is the one a court will recognise. There is no legal requirement to revoke or cancel any 

will previously lodged at an Amphur

 

In fact any will would normally state in its preamble 'This will revokes all previous wills' or words to that effect. That has the legal effect of cancelling previous wills.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

49 minutes ago, terryq said:

In fact any will would normally state in its preamble 'This will revokes all previous wills' or words to that effect. That has the legal effect of cancelling previous wills.

Except such a will, in the absence of other pertinent information, isn't going to inform anyone it's presented to, such as a bank manager, as to whether there may be a subsequently written/executed will that superceded the one illegitimately being presented.

 

But with a registered amphur will, there's going to be one and only one validly registered will at any given time. They're not going to keep versions A, B, C, D etc on file for the same willmaker.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[jonwilly]

To CM Bob

Thanks for the advice on the Immigration matter.

Only I will have my name on that individual account.

John 

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post and the replies to it.

 

Reminder: The title of this topic is Executor of expat will duties. Replies with information what others wrote in their will and how much they paid a lawyer to draft it, etc are far off topic.

 

[jonwilly]

The Administrator of my will, a Thai national accompanied me to my bank UOB, and I made him co signatory for two of my accounts. The matter of my Passing was made to the bank staff and they said that this was the acceptable way.

The account with my B800,000 for immigration purposes remains in my name only.

Thanks to all sensible commenters on this thread.

John

[Klonko]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:34 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The standard advice is to have separate wills specific to whatever individual countries the willmaker has assets in....  And, to have a local executor in the countries involved.

 

Two separate wills may lead to additional legal disputes. I established one will (in duplicates for my Thai wife and my foreign heir), assigning an executor for my Thai assets and an executor for my foreign assets, any disputes to be decided by the foreign executor or the foreign jurisdiction. The foreign executor will bridge finance my Thai wife until she will receive the benefits from my foreign pension in order not to depend on the access to my Thai assets.

[farmerjo]

On 7/12/2023 at 6:08 AM, jonwilly said:

The Administrator of my will, a Thai national accompanied me to my bank UOB, and I made him co signatory for two of my accounts.

Does that enable him to withdraw money while you are alive?

[jonwilly]

9 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Does that enable him to withdraw money while you are alive?

Er Yes IF he had the bank passbook, which I retain, so NO.

john

[pablo el sueco]

On 7/12/2023 at 6:08 AM, jonwilly said:

The Administrator of my will, a Thai national accompanied me to my bank UOB, and I made him co signatory for two of my accounts. The matter of my Passing was made to the bank staff and they said that this was the acceptable way.

The account with my B800,000 for immigration purposes remains in my name only.

Thanks to all sensible commenters on this thread.

John

Thank you for posting your experience.  It's clear that you have resolved the issue of the inheritance of your non-immigration accounts by making your Administrator a co-signer on those accounts.  It's not clear to me, however, what will happen to your 800,000 immigration account after you die.

 

Which of these two interpretations is correct according to your discussions with your bank?

    A.    Your bank will not allow the administrator named in your will to access the 800,000 because he is not a co-signer on that account.
    
    B.    Your bank will allow the administrator named in your will to access the 800,000 because you have made him a co-signer of your other accounts.

 

Your response will help me understand this confusing situation.

 

[jonwilly]

I have no solution to the B800,000 that the Thai government requires to be in my account at all times so will be lost to the Government when I pass on.

John 

[pablo el sueco]

1 hour ago, jonwilly said:

I have no solution to the B800,000 that the Thai government requires to be in my account at all times so will be lost to the Government when I pass on.

John 

I truly hope your bank is wrong.  It astounds me that a bank can ignore the provisions set forth in a legally executed and properly recorded Will, and that the government becomes the de facto undesignated beneficiary of accounts that do not have a co-signer.  Many of us have immigration deposits in bank accounts which cannot have a co-signer; it is distressing to learn that these assets will enrich the government rather than our loved ones upon our passing.

[farmerjo]

3 hours ago, jonwilly said:

I have no solution to the B800,000 that the Thai government requires to be in my account at all times so will be lost to the Government when I pass on.

John 

What's stopping your benefactor from hiring a lawyer to get that said account money.

[JimGant]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:11 AM, jonwilly said:

After a discussion the lady’s told me to bring my Administrator to the bank and they would do the paperwork for him to be allowed to withdraw money from my accounts on my passing on.

....meaning, they would make your administrator a co-signer on those accounts you so designate --'cause there's no avenue in Thailand to make him or anyone a designated beneficiary.

 

But granting co-signatory rights is akin to granting a limited Power of Attorney (POA). And the POA dies with the grantor's death. Now, there's nothing specific in the Civil Code, at least that I can find, about co-signatory legal aspects. So, there's a good chance your bank manager might be confused about the rights of a co-signer after the death of the account owner. But why chance it that the bank manager freezes the account when your administrator announces your death? Instead, have him show up with your passbook, bypass the manager, and have a clerk deal with the withdrawal. As long as the bank doesn't know of your death, they have no legal obligation to take any action, which would probably be to freeze your account.

 

The co-signer option will become even more popular as facial recognition kicks in. Currently, my instructions to my wife are, upon my death, to go online, log into my account, and transfer all but a few baht to her account. But if Bangkok Bank goes to facial recognition for both mobile and online transfers -- well, my wife as co-signer will have to physically go to the bank with my passbook.

 

 

[JimGant]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:57 AM, jonwilly said:

Thanks for the advice on the Immigration matter.

Only I will have my name on that individual account.

Then that account will have to go through probate. Naming a co-signer has no drawbacks -- the bank isn't going to pull a fast one, for whatever reason, and make that account a joint account rather than a co-signatory account. That would be obvious, as the joint account passbook would have two names on it, prominently displayed. So, advise you make your Imm account also a co-signatory account....