I love electric vehicles – and was an early adopter. But increasingly I feel duped Rowan Atkinson

[KhunLA]

With all the problems, reported here about the UK & EVs, is this a case of the UK falling behind again.  Maybe they can blame that on Brexit also:

 

"Sweden Hits 62% Plugin EV Market Share In May, Tesla Model Y High"

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/03/sweden-hits-62-plugin-ev-market-share-in-may-tesla-model-y-high/amp/

 

"Norwegian new vehicle emissions plunge as plug-in electrics hit stunning 91% market share"

https://thedriven.io/2023/06/02/norwegian-new-vehicle-emissions-plunge-as-plug-in-electrics-hit-stunning-91-market-share/

[James105]

20 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

With all the problems, reported here about the UK & EVs, is this a case of the UK falling behind again.  Maybe they can blame that on Brexit also:

 

"Sweden Hits 62% Plugin EV Market Share In May, Tesla Model Y High"

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/03/sweden-hits-62-plugin-ev-market-share-in-may-tesla-model-y-high/amp/

 

"Norwegian new vehicle emissions plunge as plug-in electrics hit stunning 91% market share"

https://thedriven.io/2023/06/02/norwegian-new-vehicle-emissions-plunge-as-plug-in-electrics-hit-stunning-91-market-share/

People in the UK have had their fingers burnt when the government previously recommended that people buy diesel cars due to lower CO2 emissions before doing a reverse ferret on this (and then punishing anyone who listened to their bad suggestion with higher taxes) so are rightly wary of buying something based on yet another government recommendation.   https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/01/uk-government-wrong-to-subsidise-diesel-says-former-minister

 

If the technology was good enough, better value and more convenient than petrol cars then the market share will go up naturally.   Why do you expect people to buy something that by every possible metric is less convenient than what they currently use?   

 

When Electric cars can be recharged in equivalent or less time than filling a car with petrol, they can travel at least the same distance and they represent better value THEN people will move to electric cars, or whatever the technology is that replaces gasoline.  That is probably at least 2 decades away.   If the UK really does ban new petrol/diesel car sales from 2030 without a significant improvement in EV tech or an alternative then that would be monumentally stupid as people will just keep running older cars that will probably pollute more than if they were allowed to buy newer petrol fuelled cars.   

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, James105 said:

 If the UK really does ban new petrol/diesel car sales from 2030 without a significant improvement in EV tech or an alternative then that would be monumentally stupid as people will just keep running older cars that will probably pollute more than if they were allowed to buy newer petrol fuelled cars.   

Enjoy your 15 minute cities 

[James105]

39 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Enjoy your 15 minute cities 

I live in Thailand.   Are they introducing 15 minute cities here?

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

I said, the vehicles can't be scrapped in UK. Not that the parts scrapped can't be reused.

 

The cars are sent to Poland. In Poland they're either scrapped or restored. Scrapped parts are then, sometimes, sent back to the UK for sale. 

This is B.S. Batteries are currently sent from the UK to battery recyclers in in the EU., As for   "Any electric vehicle that becomes undrivable just sits and rots or gets sent to Poland.."

This is B.S. Here's what really happens:

 

 "End of life electric vehicles are
returned to the dealership where
the battery is removed from
the vehicle using high voltage
technicians
 The vehicle is sold to a metal
recycler whilst the battery is given
to a battery disposal company
 The battery is discharged,
dismantled into modules which
are packaged in containers
alongside fire-proof material

"Currently, most companies in the UK export their end-of-life and redundant batteries to Europe, Asia, and other parts of the world for material-level recycling and face heavy transportation costs associated with that service."

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/wmg/business/transportelec/22350m_wmg_battery_recycling_report_v7.pdf

 

I believe that the phrase "metal recycler" means the same thing as "scrap metal dealer".

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

This is B.S. Batteries are currently sent from the UK to battery recyclers in in the EU., As for   "Any electric vehicle that becomes undrivable just sits and rots or gets sent to Poland.."

This is B.S. Here's what really happens:

 

 "End of life electric vehicles are
returned to the dealership where
the battery is removed from
the vehicle using high voltage
technicians
 The vehicle is sold to a metal
recycler whilst the battery is given
to a battery disposal company
 The battery is discharged,
dismantled into modules which
are packaged in containers
alongside fire-proof material

"Currently, most companies in the UK export their end-of-life and redundant batteries to Europe, Asia, and other parts of the world for material-level recycling and face heavy transportation costs associated with that service."

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/wmg/business/transportelec/22350m_wmg_battery_recycling_report_v7.pdf

 

I believe that the phrase "metal recycler" means the same thing as "scrap metal dealer".

 

 

Please don't accuse me of BS. It's impolite and crass.

 

I know what I was told. If things have moved on and new processes have become available since last time I spoke with my associate, that can only be a good thing.

 

As is your confirmed fact that UK companies are trading with EU countries with no apparent obstacles.

Edited June 4, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

This is B.S. Batteries are currently sent from the UK to battery recyclers in in the EU., As for   "Any electric vehicle that becomes undrivable just sits and rots or gets sent to Poland.."

This is B.S. Here's what really happens:

 

 "End of life electric vehicles are
returned to the dealership where
the battery is removed from
the vehicle using high voltage
technicians
 The vehicle is sold to a metal
recycler whilst the battery is given
to a battery disposal company
 The battery is discharged,
dismantled into modules which
are packaged in containers
alongside fire-proof material

"Currently, most companies in the UK export their end-of-life and redundant batteries to Europe, Asia, and other parts of the world for material-level recycling and face heavy transportation costs associated with that service."

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/wmg/business/transportelec/22350m_wmg_battery_recycling_report_v7.pdf

 

I believe that the phrase "metal recycler" means the same thing as "scrap metal dealer".

 

 

Where in the article dedicated to "Automotive Lithium ion Battery Recycling in the UK" (as quoted above) of 13 pages is there any page or detail  of more than one or two sentences  regarding the ecological disposal of the rest of the "vehicle" (regardless of size etc)?

[placeholder]

 

19 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Exactly. Sent abroad. That's what I said and that is what the scrap metal dealer told me. Nice to see you finally agree with something I said.

 

Btw.....Dealerships don't have licenses to dismantle EVs and remove batteries. 

What you wrote is that the EVs are left to rot. In fact the batteries are shipped to recyclers, and the rest of the car is sold to scrap metal dealers. Nothing about having to send the vehicle abroad to Poland or anywhere else.

And, in fact, producers of EV batteries are required to accept batteries for disposal.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/waste-batteries-producer-responsibility

 

And let me refresh your memory as to what you actually said:

"Any electric vehicle that becomes undrivable just sits and rots or gets sent to Poland." This continues to be B.S.

 

And your alleged scrap metal dealer can't just send the car with the battery anywhere. The battery has to be taken care of separately. And he can't abandon the battery either. That is illegal.

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, James105 said:

People in the UK have had their fingers burnt when the government previously recommended that people buy diesel cars due to lower CO2 emissions before doing a reverse ferret on this (and then punishing anyone who listened to their bad suggestion with higher taxes) so are rightly wary of buying something based on yet another government recommendation.   https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/01/uk-government-wrong-to-subsidise-diesel-says-former-minister

 

If the technology was good enough, better value and more convenient than petrol cars then the market share will go up naturally.   Why do you expect people to buy something that by every possible metric is less convenient than what they currently use?   

 

When Electric cars can be recharged in equivalent or less time than filling a car with petrol, they can travel at least the same distance and they represent better value THEN people will move to electric cars, or whatever the technology is that replaces gasoline.  That is probably at least 2 decades away.   If the UK really does ban new petrol/diesel car sales from 2030 without a significant improvement in EV tech or an alternative then that would be monumentally stupid as people will just keep running older cars that will probably pollute more than if they were allowed to buy newer petrol fuelled cars.   

If people had their fingers burnt re diesel that's because companies that manufactured diesel were lying about the pollution they generated.

 

" Why do you expect people to buy something that by every possible metric is less convenient than what they currently use?"

  So, when your car runs low on petrol, you have a pump at your home to fill it up?

As for "THEN people will move to electric cars",, what year are you living in, China actually elimnated all subsidies on EVs starting Jan 1, 2023.

 

China EV sales: BYD sets new May record while NIO slips ahead of ET5 Touring launch

Recovering demand in China’s booming EV market led to all major EV builders seeing a rise in sales over the last month. Although NIO was the exception, the EV startup began delivering its second-generation ES6 and is launching a new midsize electric tourer this month...

Last month, the market leader BYD led the rising momentum, with battery electric passenger vehicle (BEV) sales rising by 124% YOY to 119,603 in May, according to data from CnEVPost

https://electrek.co/2023/06/01/china-ev-sales-byd-sets-new-may-record-nio-slips/

 

"That is probably at least 2 decades away."

Out of what dark recess did you pull that estimate from? The most pessimistic expectations I've seen for solid state batteries is 2030.  ANd the history of EV batteries shows that that predictions for batter performance have consistently been way too pessimistic.

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

What you wrote is that the EVs are left to rot. In fact the batteries are shipped to recyclers, and the rest of the car is sold to scrap metal dealers. Nothing about having to send the vehicle abroad to Poland or anywhere else.

And, in fact, producers of EV batteries are required to accept batteries for disposal.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/waste-batteries-producer-responsibility

 

And let me refresh your memory as to what you actually said:

"Any electric vehicle that becomes undrivable just sits and rots or gets sent to Poland." This continues to be B.S.

 

And your alleged scrap metal dealer can't just send the car with the battery anywhere. The battery has to be taken care of separately. And he can't abandon the battery either. That is illegal.

Oh dear. Get your selective reading glasses off and read my most recent post again.

 

Your last paragraph contains allegations. Please refrain from alleging things I have not said. Exaggeration for effect, once again.

[James105]

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

If people had their fingers burnt re diesel that's because companies that manufactured diesel were lying about the pollution they generated.

So people that were lied to before are now supposed to just trust these same people now with this?  Why would they?  Once bitten twice shy etc..

 

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

" Why do you expect people to buy something that by every possible metric is less convenient than what they currently use?"

  So, when your car runs low on petrol, you have a pump at your home to fill it up?

As for "THEN people will move to electric cars",, what year are you living in, China actually elimnated all subsidies on EVs starting Jan 1, 2023.

People do not need a pump at home as petrol cars can travel significantly further between refuelling and when refuelling is needed it takes about 5 minutes rather than hours to fill the car up.   I was responding to a post about the choices people currently are making in the UK, not what is occurring in the communist state of China.

 

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

Out of what dark recess did you pull that estimate from? The most pessimistic expectations I've seen for solid state batteries is 2030. 

If that is the case it would be especially stupid to buy an electric car today as it would be effectively worthless in resale value if there is emerging tech coming out "any day now" that will replace the existing heavy, slow to charge (in comparison to refuelling), poor range batteries.   Anyone with sense would hold off until solid state batteries are available if they do indeed solve the range and slow charging (in comparison to refuelling) problem.  

[BritManToo]

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

So, when your car runs low on petrol, you have a pump at your home to fill it up?

I used to keep a 5gal tank of petrol in the garage. 

Not that hard to do.

[BritManToo]

12 hours ago, James105 said:

I live in Thailand.   Are they introducing 15 minute cities here?

All Thailand cities are 15 minute cities ........ the government hasn't gutted town centers like the west has done.

[Credo]

Every technology has a downside, and every technological advance has faced challenges.  My next vehicle will be an EV.   Even if the electricity it uses is dependent on electricity generated by oil or coal, it doesn't always have to be that way.   More renewable energy is being generated daily.   

 

If I buy a conventional car, I will be dependent on oil forever.   

 

Oh, and I see, OPEC, or at least Saudi Arabia, is cutting production.   

 

[placeholder]

12 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Oh dear. Get your selective reading glasses off and read my most recent post again.

 

Your last paragraph contains allegations. Please refrain from alleging things I have not said. Exaggeration for effect, once again.

It's notable that you don't specifically address the points I raised, but simply make allegations unsupported by evidence.

[youreavinalaff]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's notable that you don't specifically address the points I raised, but simply make allegations unsupported by evidence.

I acknowledged your link in my previous post. I guess you chose to ignore it.

Edited June 5, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

I acknowledged your link in my previous post. I guess you chose to ignore it.

It must have been quite a long time ago that you spoke with this alleged scrap metal dealer. Regulations governing EV batteries were issued in 2014. Were EVs even much in evidence in the UK before then?

[billd766]

On 6/4/2023 at 8:28 AM, gargamon said:

Yes, need more nuclear power plants. 

Then you have the problem of disposing of the spent fuel rods.

[billd766]

15 hours ago, placeholder said:

If people had their fingers burnt re diesel that's because companies that manufactured diesel were lying about the pollution they generated.

 

" Why do you expect people to buy something that by every possible metric is less convenient than what they currently use?"

  So, when your car runs low on petrol, you have a pump at your home to fill it up?

As for "THEN people will move to electric cars",, what year are you living in, China actually elimnated all subsidies on EVs starting Jan 1, 2023.

 

China EV sales: BYD sets new May record while NIO slips ahead of ET5 Touring launch

Recovering demand in China’s booming EV market led to all major EV builders seeing a rise in sales over the last month. Although NIO was the exception, the EV startup began delivering its second-generation ES6 and is launching a new midsize electric tourer this month...

Last month, the market leader BYD led the rising momentum, with battery electric passenger vehicle (BEV) sales rising by 124% YOY to 119,603 in May, according to data from CnEVPost

https://electrek.co/2023/06/01/china-ev-sales-byd-sets-new-may-record-nio-slips/

 

"That is probably at least 2 decades away."

Out of what dark recess did you pull that estimate from? The most pessimistic expectations I've seen for solid state batteries is 2030.  ANd the history of EV batteries shows that that predictions for batter performance have consistently been way too pessimistic.

 

 

quote So, when your car runs low on petrol, you have a pump at your home to fill it up?

 

Apart from the fact that my pickup is diesel. I never let it get that low. The nearest gas station to me here in rural Kamphaeng Phet is less than 1 km away. In the big village 6 km away there are at least 5 gas stations.

 

If I had an electric vehicle, I would HAVE to be able to charge it at home as the nearest commercial charging stations are around 60 km away on the route 1 near Kamphaeng Phet.

 

Until there are electric charging stations are available on every highway, city, main highways, urban and rural,EV sales will not be that high in Thailand.

 

Add to that the whole MEA/PEA electrical infrastructure will need upgrading, including the transformers, overhead cables and perhaps even the power poles themselves to cope with the extra weight, and more power generation sites of all kinds will need to be built.

 

Just some of the little things that EV producers conveniently forget to tell you.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

quote So, when your car runs low on petrol, you have a pump at your home to fill it up?

 

Apart from the fact that my pickup is diesel. I never let it get that low. The nearest gas station to me here in rural Kamphaeng Phet is less than 1 km away. In the big village 6 km away there are at least 5 gas stations.

 

If I had an electric vehicle, I would HAVE to be able to charge it at home as the nearest commercial charging stations are around 60 km away on the route 1 near Kamphaeng Phet.

 

Until there are electric charging stations are available on every highway, city, main highways, urban and rural,EV sales will not be that high in Thailand.

 

Add to that the whole MEA/PEA electrical infrastructure will need upgrading, including the transformers, overhead cables and perhaps even the power poles themselves to cope with the extra weight, and more power generation sites of all kinds will need to be built.

 

Just some of the little things that EV producers conveniently forget to tell you.

Because you need to be told this if you live outside of urban areas? 

[billd766]

32 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Because you need to be told this if you live outside of urban areas? 

Look at a map of Thailand and you will see that most of the country is outside of the rural areas.

[nauseus]

On 6/4/2023 at 8:55 AM, sirineou said:

Nonsense!

"In advance of the Cop26 climate conference in Glasgow in 2021, Volvo released figures claiming that greenhouse gas emissions during production of an electric car are 70% higher than when manufacturing a petrol one.  " 

The operative word here is "during production "  

How about life span?

Then he goes on to say :

" The biggest problem we need to address in society’s relationship with the car is the “fast fashion” sales culture that has been the commercial template of the car industry for decades. Currently, on average we keep our new cars for only three years before selling"

"New cars" not new electric cars.

So how does this relates to ?

"I love electric vehicles – and was an early adopter. But increasingly I feel duped "?

The statement does not even makes sense. Those who only keep  a car "Three Years" sell the car to someone else who does not buy a new car and as such does not contribute to  emissions created during the production .

 

But what do you expect from an article written by Mr Been? ????

I will Admit that's where I stopped reading being too busy laughing. So If I missed anything later on on the article, Please feel free to corrected. 

Yes. It's Bean not Been.

[nauseus]

On 6/4/2023 at 9:20 AM, placeholder said:

Your comment about EV's being essentially coal powered would make some sense if, in fact, coal provided the majority of power. Is that the case in the UK? Is it the case in the EU? Is it the case in the developed world? Even in China the percentage of power provided by coal is falling. In fact, China is leading the world by far in the installation of new renewable sources.

And as for what's coming down the pipeline, overwhelmingly it's renewables In fact over the next five years, renewables will account for over 90% of all new power generation

https://www.iea.org/news/renewable-power-s-growth-is-being-turbocharged-as-countries-seek-to-strengthen-energy-security

 

 

What you don't include is the fact that in China the amount of power provided by coal is still increasing. 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

All Thailand cities are 15 minute cities ........ the government hasn't gutted town centers like the west has done.

It’s not Government’s that have gutted   town and cities in the west, it’s unfettered corporate greed.

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

What you don't include is the fact that in China the amount of power provided by coal is still increasing. 

 

Which is what excuse for others not reducing their use of fossil fuels?

[nauseus]

34 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Which is what excuse for others not reducing their use of fossil fuels?

Eh?

[gargamon]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Then you have the problem of disposing of the spent fuel rods.

Nope. Sorry.

-----

What do they do with spent nuclear fuel rods?

Spent nuclear fuel can be recycled to make new fuel and byproducts. More than 90% of its potential energy still remains in the fuel, even after five years of operation in a reactor. The United States does not currently recycle spent nuclear fuel but foreign countries, such as France, do.

https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-spent-nuclear-fuel

[billd766]

1 hour ago, gargamon said:

Nope. Sorry.

-----

What do they do with spent nuclear fuel rods?

Spent nuclear fuel can be recycled to make new fuel and byproducts. More than 90% of its potential energy still remains in the fuel, even after five years of operation in a reactor. The United States does not currently recycle spent nuclear fuel but foreign countries, such as France, do.

https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-spent-nuclear-fuel

An interesting link. Thank you.

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes. It's Bean not Been.

Good eyes but he no longer is so....????

[sirineou]

12 hours ago, Credo said:

 My next vehicle will be an EV. 

 

Mine too,

Did you know that many EVs you can use as back up power for your home in case of power failure?