Opinion: Thailand is at a crossroads because of unelected, unaccountable bodies

[RamblingOn]

6 hours ago, h90 said:

27% is not the collective will.....

And a collective will is something scary anyway....There was done enough harm for the collective will from the right wing and the left wing in the past.

Some struggle and compromise might be less efficient but much safer

Where did you get 27% from??

[dinsdale]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

These institutions, once meant to serve us,

Never meant to serve the people. These were put in place by the coup leaders to protect their positions. Exactly what they are doing now.

[tomacht8]

55 minutes ago, h90 said:

I am sure there will be a democratic elected PM...just not Pita

That would no longer be democratic then. The original will of the 2/3 majority coalition to want Pita as PM would then ultimately be manipulated from unelected people.

Edited July 17, 2023 by tomacht8

[h90]

28 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

That would no longer be democratic then. The original will of the 2/3 majority coalition to want Pita as PM would then ultimately be manipulated from unelected people.

If say PTP comes and 2/3 of the MPs vote for him...not democratic?

[tomacht8]

7 minutes ago, h90 said:

If say PTP comes and 2/3 of the MPs vote for him...not democratic?

That would be a second solution that the coalition didn't want at all before. And who prevented the first solution? Answer: The unelected senators who have no mandate to represent the will of the people. This means that the coalition is forced to nominate a second candidate that was originally not wanted. That's undemocratic, isn't it?

[h90]

53 minutes ago, RamblingOn said:

Where did you get 27% from??

14.4 Million out of 52.2 Million voters.

[h90]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

Yes. This can/will happen after the unelected Senate blocked Pita's candidacy. That means translated: The 2/3 majority of the parliamentarians elected by the people want Pita as a prospective PM. Now that's going to be blocked by the Senate, isn't it? That means who determines who gets the go as a PM in such a situation? The people who voted democratically or the 232 unelected senators? 

The people who voted democratically didn't vote to 2/3 for Pita....his party got 38% of the valid votes so 62% voted for someone else. For example 29% (PTP) wanted someone from PTP as PM. So the compromise just looks a bit different.
If the Senate manage to install someone complete different than I agree with you. If it is just a shift in the coalition or another similar coalition than it is still democratic.

[Enoon]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Anything that makes LOS more like the west, which many of us escaped from with relish, is not welcomed by myself, and I'm sure other farangs.

If being run by unelected-unaccountable-bodies is the price to be paid, so be it, in MY opinion.

 

The Thai people should endure so that your life is not "inconvenienced"?

 

You would deny them all the same opportunities that, ultimately, allowed you to arrive, plant yourself in Thailand and live a "superior" life, a "nice life in the sun".......at the Thai peoples expense?

 

That is the sum of it......for you and the rest of the neo-colonialists who capitalise on the injustice and inequality of Thailands socio-political-economic system.

 

Do you guys really not see the sort of people that you are?

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Enoon

[tomacht8]

4 minutes ago, h90 said:

14.4 Million out of 52.2 Million voters.

Wrong again. There are people who are entitled to vote and people who actually vote.

[tomacht8]

2 minutes ago, h90 said:

The people who voted democratically didn't vote to 2/3 for Pita....his party got 38% of the valid votes so 62% voted for someone else. For example 29% (PTP) wanted someone from PTP as PM. So the compromise just looks a bit different.
If the Senate manage to install someone complete different than I agree with you. If it is just a shift in the coalition or another similar coalition than it is still democratic.

I give up with you. 

Obviously you are not familiar with the basic principles of a parliamentary democracy.

[Enoon]

6 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

I assume the author is Thai.

 

 

 

Yes, and many more.

 

They have found their voices at last.

 

There is no going back.

 

Good luck to them.

 

 

[mfd101]

3 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Wrong again. There are people who are entitled to vote and people who actually vote.

Yes. In every democracy in the world it is only those who actually vote whose vote is counted. Even in Australia - where voting is theoretically 'compulsory' - only the c91% who actually vote are counted.

 

To count the non-votes of those who for whatever reason don't vote is just grotesque. A disgusting perversion of due process.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

You drill holes in thick boards that don't exist. The entire coalition has voted in favor of Pita as the new PM, representing a clear 2/3 majority in Parliament. It can't be that difficult to understand.

It is that difficult if he does not want to understand.

[h90]

5 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

I give up with you. 

Obviously you are not familiar with the basic principles of a parliamentary democracy.

Question for you: an election in Farangland: one party wins by some real margin. The second and the third (which is really small in compare with the first) make a coalition and the third makes the PM....democratic and the will of the people? Happens and no one complains

 

Or: one party has a PM candidate who is loved by the voters....get PM after a year the own party removes him and put in some complete unknown person...will of the people? But no one complains

 

Or von der Leyen as EU president (if you followed that drama in detail).

 

In the pure sense of parliamentary democracy you are right (and the senator construction is nonsense) but that pure ideal democracy doesn't exist anywhere on the world (maybe beside the peoples republic of north korea....there the people get what they vote for ????)

[tomacht8]

25 minutes ago, h90 said:

Question for you: an election in Farangland: one party wins by some real margin. The second and the third (which is really small in compare with the first) make a coalition and the third makes the PM....democratic and the will of the people? Happens and no one complains

 

Or: one party has a PM candidate who is loved by the voters....get PM after a year the own party removes him and put in some complete unknown person...will of the people? But no one complains

 

Or von der Leyen as EU president (if you followed that drama in detail).

 

In the pure sense of parliamentary democracy you are right (and the senator construction is nonsense) but that pure ideal democracy doesn't exist anywhere on the world (maybe beside the peoples republic of north korea....there the people get what they vote for ????)

Now what kind of argument is that? To excuse the undemocratic process in Thailand with other undemocratic processes around the world. That doesn't make any sense at all.

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, madmitch said:

Early days yet. 

 

I anticipate relative calm if the coalition gets the PM job, even with a PM who isn'f from MFP.

 

I expect angry, violent protets if Prawit or similar get the job, which will be escalated further if Pita is disqualified and/or MFP dissolved.

 

Watch this space.

I agree. These are filthy men, who will use any tactic they can, to keep feeding from the golden calf. They must be stopped, if Thailand is to have any sort of meaningful future. 

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, h90 said:

I am sure there will be a democratic elected PM...just not Pita

If a single vote cast by one of the filthy army appointed senators is counted, it would not be a democratic vote. Period. 

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Western and Asia-Pacific democratic regimes have sold out support for a vigorous democratic Thailand since the 2014 coup with indifference and business as usual. Many have recently formalized trade agreements (MOU's and FTA's). Even the UN puts a militarized Thailand on a pedestal as a successful democracy.

The Thai people have become aliens in their own nation.

You are talking about the same UN that certifies elections in Cambodia. You don't get more corrupt than Hun Sen. 

 

Despite losing the election, Hun Sen, one of Vietnam’s undemocratically installed leaders, became “co-prime minister,” while the CPP was allowed to nominate cabinet members and ministers.

In July 1997, Hun Sen’s militarized political party launched an offensive, surrounding Funcinpec party garrisons and demanding that they turn over their weapons.

 

https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/was-cambodia-ever-really-a-democracy/

 

And this is the same UN that approved of the Japanese dumping of millions of tons of partially radioactive waste into the Pacific. It is safe to say the UN carries very little moral authority, these days. 

[BangkokReady]

8 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

a new, accountable governance model that echoes the true spirit of Thai democracy.

Does anyone actually know what this is?  Is it different to other forms of democracy?  Is it superior to other types of democracy?  Or is it inferior, due to corruption and law/rule breaking?

[BangkokReady]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

let us acknowledge our truth

It's better to acknowledge the truth, to be honest.  Individual truths (I.e. objective opinions) are not as useful as this person proabbly thinks.

[BangkokReady]

8 hours ago, h90 said:

27% is not the collective will.....

And a collective will is something scary anyway....There was done enough harm for the collective will from the right wing and the left wing in the past.

Some struggle and compromise might be less efficient but much safer

Whenever someone says "the will of the people" I am immediately uneasy.  It has shades of communism.  "Are you questioning the will of the people comrade?"

 

Reform is likely to be much more successful and beneficial than a revolution.  Revolutions have a habit of quickly being taken over and turning into dictatorships.

 

We only need to look at the recent democratic movement which was quickly co-opted and lost all direction.

[connda]

8 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

the true spirit of Thai democracy.

Thai Democracy:  Whoever obtains power rigs the system in their favor.  <-- Reality

[connda]

4 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Whenever someone says "the will of the people" I am immediately uneasy.  It has shades of communism.  "Are you questioning the will of the people comrade?"

Funny - the thought the exact same thing.

[bamnutsak]

10 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Does anyone actually know what this is?

Not sure, the author's choice of phrase.

 

My guess? Aspirational, leaning more towards openness, transparency, equality. The current form of Thai democracy seems to favor the old guard. And the Head of State is not elected.

[kwilco]

"The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy." Montesquieu.

 

It seems the military have round down the general Thai populace into a state of apathy - they have a chance to change things but they are letting the military-backed bureaucracy grind them down. there seems to be no "will of the people"
 

[bamnutsak]

14 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Whenever someone says "the will of the people" I am immediately uneasy.  It has shades of communism.  "Are you questioning the will of the people comrade?"

Wow! I have the exact opposite response. And no fake quote needed.

 

Real Quote...

 

The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.

 

Thomas Jefferson

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by bamnutsak

[kwilco]

11 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Whenever someone says "the will of the people" I am immediately uneasy.  It has shades of communism.  "Are you questioning the will of the people comrade?"

 

Reform is likely to be much more successful and beneficial than a revolution.  Revolutions have a habit of quickly being taken over and turning into dictatorships.

 

We only need to look at the recent democratic movement which was quickly co-opted and lost all direction.

It is sad that people don't understand the word "communism" - and like woke, PC and other words it is used in a perverted form as a blanket "bete noire" by the uninformed.

Edited July 17, 2023 by kwilco

[connda]

50 minutes ago, h90 said:

Question for you: an election in Farangland: one party wins by some real margin. The second and the third (which is really small in compare with the first) make a coalition and the third makes the PM....democratic and the will of the people? Happens and no one complains

Just as a comparison in 'Farangland:'  Truss and Sunak.  Was that "The Will Of The People?" 
Correct answer is "No" as The People, as in the total voting public, didn't have a say.

So here in Thailand?  For some reason we are suppose to believe that just because one party gets a majority of votes that get to elect the PM?  Thailand does have a Constitution (it's a Constitutional Monarchy) and like it or hate it, the current Constitution dictate how the PM is put into office.  Wanna change the Constitution (I thinks it's happened a number of times since I moved here) then form a coalition government powerful enough to make the change.

Like I stated above:  Thai Democracy - whoever gets into office attempts to rig the system in their own favor.
The Coup Leaders did a slam-bam job of that by the way.  Rigging it in their own favor.

[connda]

18 minutes ago, kwilco said:

"The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy." Montesquieu.

True that, as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy creates a vacuum which allows for the tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy (and the tyranny of other forms of Totalitarianism - even those which govern with a iron-fist or a 'boot stamping on a human face - forever...... but yet call themselves 'democracies.').  DINOs.  Democracies In Name Only.  A pig wearing lipstick is still a pig.

They occur due to the apathy of citizens.

Edited July 17, 2023 by connda

[BangkokReady]

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

It is sad that people don't understand the word "communism" - and like woke, PC and other words it is used in a perverted form as a blanket "bete noire" by the uninformed.

It's sad that people lie about communism because they're mad at the fact that it doesn't work.