Digital nomads in Thailand

[Pib]

 

This article from Siam Legal discusses the digital nomad in Thailand issue and gives quite a few examples of when a specific visa/work permit would be needed or not needed....but at the same time a person will probably still feel the issue "is clear as mud" after reading the article.

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thailand-digital-nomad-visa-and-work-permit

[Misty]

2 hours ago, n00dle said:

its been 15 years for me and not an issue. I have even been asked at immigration what my profession is and i have told them I am a writer. 

even if they wanted to kick up a stink i maintain a buffer of at least 1 years equivalent salary in the account i transfer from so I can show that the money i am bringing in to thailand was made at least a year previous and is therefore untaxable, 

Again, if you are physically in Thailand when you are earning income by writing, the tax code considers your income to be "Thai sourced" and your writing income is taxable. Waiting a year to bring the income into  Thailand doesn't change that.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

Your post is more ridiculous.

 

From a legal perspective it is seen as working. You are not allowed to work on a tourist or retirement visa.

You are expected to have a work permit. 

Many people get away with it, some don't as they got ratted on by people who held a grudge.

Can you point to an example of someone working as a digital nomad (with no Thai employer or customer in Thailand) who "did not get away with it" because they were "ratted on by people who held a grudge". I do not say categorically that it has never happened, but I have never heard of such a case.

[save the frogs]

I did some more research.

This blog is worth a read. 

Mentions the raid in Chiang Mai. 

Some of this information is coming from a lawyer. 

 

http://guroo.asia/can-a-digital-nomad-work-in-chiang-mai/

 

some key points:

 

• Immigration needs to prove in court that someone is breaking the law to get them deported
• Immigration is now actively collecting this evidence for future arrests to provide proof

 

What is the criteria Immigration investigators are concerned about?

• Anyone working from anything that can be defined as a ‘Office”.  This includes condos converted into Offices (as in the Skype English Teachers) and spaces deemed to look like an Office (rented enclosed working spaces in coworking spaces) and actual rented Offices
• Anyone who publicly states they are working in Thailand as a digital nomad without a work permit. Investigators are looking at Forums, Facebook groups, Nomad seminars with a fee, and personal blogs – and collecting evidence

 

What are Immigration investigators not concerned about?

• Visitors who are holidaying in Thailand as part of an extended overseas vacation
• People working from inside their own condo or apartment
• People working in open cafe (something that does not resemble an office)
• People without a history of living here repeatedly
• People who are working and not openly promoting they are breaking the laws of the Kingdom of Thailand.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by save the frogs

[StayinThailand2much]

Slightly off-topic, I just read in "The Thai***" that Bangkok, according to a survey, has been voted "The digital nomad's #1 destination", so, where can I apply for a 'digital nomad visa'? LOL

Edited August 1, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[LS24]

19 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Slightly off-topic, I just read in "The Thai***" that Bangkok, according to a survey, has been voted "The digital nomad's #1 destination", so, where can I apply for a 'digital nomad visa'? LOL

Chortle.

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Many people get away with it, some don't as they got ratted on by people who held a grudge.

Can you give one single example for a digital nomad who didn't get away with it?

[UWEB]

23 hours ago, LS24 said:

Are digital nomads / online consultants deemed to be working in Thailand if all their income is generated in and paid into banks in a country other than Thailand? I'm talking Elite visas, marriage visas or retirement visas. Would anyone foresee a legal issue arising for a digital nomad under those circumstances?

you may read attached

https://www.austchamthailand.com/tax-implications-of-remote-working-in-thailand/

[Lorry]

Many examples quoted in this thread are from 2014 or 2015. At that time,  digital nomads were still a bit of a novelty.  Today,  digital nomads are so mainstream that even a computer illiterate like me has heard about them.

So the Thai government has heard about them too, and Thailand did introduce a visa for digital nomads.  This visa doesn't fit the lifestyle of many digital nomads (it requires a high income and it may lead to paying taxes). But it clearly shows which kind of digital nomads Thailand wants. Not teachers on Skype.

It's similar to Thai tourism: for 20 years they have been stating they want quality tourists.  They got Indians and Chinese and Europeans on welfare.

They will tolerate the hoi polloi as long as they seem useful. This can be decades.

 

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

I did some more research.

This blog is worth a read. 

Mentions the raid in Chiang Mai. 

Some of this information is coming from a lawyer. 

 

http://guroo.asia/can-a-digital-nomad-work-in-chiang-mai/

 

some key points:

 

• Immigration needs to prove in court that someone is breaking the law to get them deported
• Immigration is now actively collecting this evidence for future arrests to provide proof

 

What is the criteria Immigration investigators are concerned about?

• Anyone working from anything that can be defined as a ‘Office”.  This includes condos converted into Offices (as in the Skype English Teachers) and spaces deemed to look like an Office (rented enclosed working spaces in coworking spaces) and actual rented Offices
• Anyone who publicly states they are working in Thailand as a digital nomad without a work permit. Investigators are looking at Forums, Facebook groups, Nomad seminars with a fee, and personal blogs – and collecting evidence

 

What are Immigration investigators not concerned about?

• Visitors who are holidaying in Thailand as part of an extended overseas vacation
• People working from inside their own condo or apartment
• People working in open cafe (something that does not resemble an office)
• People without a history of living here repeatedly
• People who are working and not openly promoting they are breaking the laws of the Kingdom of Thailand.

I suspect that the page was written close to the time of the Chiang Mai raid (about 10 years ago). What they describe does not reflect what is observed in practice. Hundreds of coworking spaces up and down Thailand operate unhindered, and the authorities are well aware of their purpose.

[save the frogs]

3 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I suspect that the page was written close to the time of the Chiang Mai raid (about 10 years ago).

ok thanks.

i forgot to check the date that blog was written. 

 

[rattlesnake]

Not only do the authorities not care about location-independent workers working from home, they are pretty shrewd when it comes to these things and understand that such a person sending 100,000k THB per month to a Thai bank acount is injecting over 1 million per year into the Thai economy.

What they do care about is that jobs aren't taken from Thais and that Thailand's image isn't tarnished. Speaking of which, they seem pretty happy when Thailand ranks high in "Best places for digital nomads" rankings.

[Misty]

4 hours ago, Dan O said:

 

Hi Dan O I think you may have mistakenly attributed the second quotation to me. 

 

Again, if you are physically working in Thailand, any income you earn is considered to be "Thai-sourced" and therefore taxable.  It is not "foreign-sourced", not matter where the income is paid.  So a digital nomad working in Thailand is earning Thai-sourced and taxable income, no matter if he's being paid in another country.

 

That is what the Thai tax regulations say.  Enforcement may be another matter.

[Scott]

A post with a misquote has been reported and removed.

 

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, Misty said:

Hi Dan O I think you may have mistakenly attributed the second quotation to me. 

 

Again, if you are physically working in Thailand, any income you earn is considered to be "Thai-sourced" and therefore taxable.  It is not "foreign-sourced", not matter where the income is paid.  So a digital nomad working in Thailand is earning Thai-sourced and taxable income, no matter if he's being paid in another country.

 

That is what the Thai tax regulations say.  Enforcement may be another matter.

I believe if you read the tax regs you will see what I have quoted. For a foreigner generating income outside of Thailand (foreign sourced) to be taxed there is a 2 tier qualification that needs to be meet under the tax regs, Source and Resident rules. 

 

. 1. ) If you live in Thailand 180 days or more in a calendar year and generate foreign sourced income 2.) you must bring that income into the country in the same calendar year to be taxed. If you live in Thailand 180 days or more but do not bring that foreign sourced income into the country in the same year you do not pay tax on that income.   If you are not in Thailand 180 days or more in a calendar year you are not a taxable resident and pay no tax on income outside of Thailand. 

 

To add another wrinkle to the discussion there are bi-lateral tax agreements to avoid double taxation.  Per that section of the regs over 50 countries have double taxation agreements with Thailand to ensure you won’t be taxed twice – once by Thailand and again by your country of origin. The United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Norway, Russia, are a few of the countries that have such treaties in place. 

 

There are numerous links if you google it or if you read the tax regs it outlines it. You must meet both the Source Rules and the Resident Rules for the answer on taxation. 

 

if you don't agree that's fine we'll just have to disagree but no sense in going in circles at this point. 

 

Google Links:

Brief On Taxation For Foreigners Under Thai Laws - Withholding Tax - Thailand (mondaq.com)

 

Home | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

 

 

[arithai12]

I would actually ask the question "who is a digital nomad"? Digital... using a computer? Most of us use it for their activities, which may or may not fall under the definition of a proper job. We read about a poster who occasionally writes books with low circulation, many others use it e.g. for their banking activities abroad  including investments or taking care of rented property. Nomad? that implies not staying put in one place for very long. If you are not in Thailand more than 180d per year, no issue. People who spend long-term here e.g. teaching on Skype or taking care of their online business in another country are hardly "nomads".

So it seems to me most of people residing here with visas and extensions do not allow, in principle, working, are in fact all digital nomads. And there are rarely -if ever- cases of police busts.

 

But on a different note: if you are residing in Thailand > 180d / year, it might actually be to your advantage to pay tax here on the money you bring in. The level of taxation is ridiculously low, after deductions for this and that, and it is often useful to show back in your home country that you are a tax resident here and have a proper tax identification number so they leave you alone.

 

Finally a plea: if you live here long term and need the internet for your activities, please buy your own subscription (cheap) and do not clog cafes sitting at a table for half a day with one drink.

[SiSePuede419]

If someone connects to a private network, let's say in San Francisco and works on that network using a server located in San Francisco they get paid by that company in San Francisco and they must pay income tax in San Francisco (if any), then they must pay California state income tax and then they must pay Federal income tax in America.

 

You'll notice that Thailand hasn't entered the financial picture yet.

 

Then the person who works in America/California/San Francisco takes money out of their account and spends it here in Thailand, just like any other tourist or retiree or Non-O visa holder.

 

How is that a bad thing?

 

Thailand signed a tax treaty with America and can't tax that income twice.  If they try, you get a refund of the tax collected.

 

At no time, was the income earned in Thailand by someone working in Thailand.

[Misty]

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

I believe if you read the tax regs you will see what I have quoted. For a foreigner generating income outside of Thailand (foreign sourced) to be taxed there is a 2 tier qualification that needs to be meet under the tax regs, Source and Resident rules. 

 

. 1. ) If you live in Thailand 180 days or more in a calendar year and generate foreign sourced income 2.) you must bring that income into the country in the same calendar year to be taxed. If you live in Thailand 180 days or more but do not bring that foreign sourced income into the country in the same year you do not pay tax on that income.   If you are not in Thailand 180 days or more in a calendar year you are not a taxable resident and pay no tax on income outside of Thailand. 

 

To add another wrinkle to the discussion there are bi-lateral tax agreements to avoid double taxation.  Per that section of the regs over 50 countries have double taxation agreements with Thailand to ensure you won’t be taxed twice – once by Thailand and again by your country of origin. The United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Norway, Russia, are a few of the countries that have such treaties in place. 

 

There are numerous links if you google it or if you read the tax regs it outlines it. You must meet both the Source Rules and the Resident Rules for the answer on taxation. 

 

if you don't agree that's fine we'll just have to disagree but no sense in going in circles at this point. 

 

Google Links:

Brief On Taxation For Foreigners Under Thai Laws - Withholding Tax - Thailand (mondaq.com)

 

Home | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

 

 

I'll try one more time as you seem interested in understanding, but I agree it may be diminishing returns to continue after this.

 

Foreign-sourced income = person is working outside of Thailand. 

 

Thai-sourced income = person is working inside Thailand.  (Simply getting paid outside Thailand doesn't change this.)

 

A digital nomad working inside Thailand is earning Thai-sourced income, not foreign sourced income.  Thai-sourced income rules apply.

 

[Misty]

1 hour ago, SiSePuede419 said:

If someone connects to a private network, let's say in San Francisco and works on that network using a server located in San Francisco they get paid by that company in San Francisco and they must pay income tax in San Francisco (if any), then they must pay California state income tax and then they must pay Federal income tax in America.

 

You'll notice that Thailand hasn't entered the financial picture yet.

 

Then the person who works in America/California/San Francisco takes money out of their account and spends it here in Thailand, just like any other tourist or retiree or Non-O visa holder.

 

How is that a bad thing?

 

Thailand signed a tax treaty with America and can't tax that income twice.  If they try, you get a refund of the tax collected.

 

At no time, was the income earned in Thailand by someone working in Thailand.

So the person is working in San Francisco then? And only traveling to Thailand as a tourist to spend the money, and then going back to San Francisco to work?

 

So that's not the case of a "digital nomad" who is living and working in Thailand, earning Thai-sourced income.

 

[Dan O]

2 minutes ago, Misty said:

I'll try one more time as you seem interested in understanding, but I agree it may be diminishing returns to continue after this.

 

Foreign-sourced income = person is working outside of Thailand. 

 

Thai-sourced income = person is working inside Thailand.  (Simply getting paid outside Thailand doesn't change this.)

 

A digital nomad working inside Thailand is earning Thai-sourced income, not foreign sourced income.  Thai-sourced income rules apply.

 

I don't think I'm the confused one.

 

Foreign Sourced income is income paid outside Thailand from a source not located in Thailand. Thai sourced income is income paid inside Thailand from a company in Thailand.

 

At this point its no use continuing as we don't agree on the definitions which is fine. 

[Pib]

53 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Foreign Sourced income is income paid outside Thailand from a source not located in Thailand. Thai sourced income is income paid inside Thailand from a company in Thailand.

Incorrect....review below tax article from BELaws for details.

https://www.belaws.com/thailand/pit-for-thai-and-foreign-sourced-income/

 

[Karma80]

2 hours ago, Dan O said:

I don't think I'm the confused one.

 

Foreign Sourced income is income paid outside Thailand from a source not located in Thailand. Thai sourced income is income paid inside Thailand from a company in Thailand.

 

At this point its no use continuing as we don't agree on the definitions which is fine. 

Work is deemed Thai-sourced income is performed when in Thailand, even if that work is paid for to an overseas account or entity. Enforcement is another matter entirely, but it doesn't change the technical tax position.

 

Revenue code - Section 41 A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

 

 

 

[Dan O]

8 hours ago, Karma80 said:

Work is deemed Thai-sourced income is performed when in Thailand, even if that work is paid for to an overseas account or entity. Enforcement is another matter entirely, but it doesn't change the technical tax position.

 

Revenue code - Section 41 A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

 

 

 

Read comprehension is a tricky thing 

[Lucky Bones]

I doubt if there are many digital nomads in Thailand.

Likely there are people who take photos of themselves and declare to be influencers.

I'll let you decide who is who..????????

[save the frogs]

10 minutes ago, Lucky Bones said:

I doubt if there are many digital nomads in Thailand.

I think a lot of them quit after going broke or not making as much money as they thought they would online. 

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Lucky Bones said:

I doubt if there are many digital nomads in Thailand.

Likely there are people who take photos of themselves and declare to be influencers.

I'll let you decide who is who..????????

My impression is that there are a lot who only come to Thailand for a few months. Those resident here who make at least part of their income online probably well under 100,000.

[jacob29]

14 hours ago, Dan O said:

I don't think I'm the confused one.

 

Foreign Sourced income is income paid outside Thailand from a source not located in Thailand. Thai sourced income is income paid inside Thailand from a company in Thailand.

Thailand has a digital nomad visa for high earners, and they explicitly state you are liable for tax - even though the visa explicitly requires it to be remote work for a foreign company. The definition as per Thai revenue department is pretty clear on this, if it was not taxable income then digital nomads wouldn't be offered a flat 17% tax rate.

[jacob29]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:54 PM, DrJack54 said:

So incorrect on every level pointless to correct. 

The OP was asking about online work. 

They are exactly correct, if it was as simple as being paid by a foreign company, local Thais could easily avoid tax obligations by receiving money from shell companies set up abroad. Clearly it doesn't work like that.

 

Even so, odds of prosecution are effectively zero as there's no visible signs of attempts at enforcement.

Edited August 2, 2023 by jacob29

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

Even so, odds of prosecution are effectively zero as there's no visible signs of attempts at enforcement.

So funny....

so impossible enforcement.

I rest my case.

 

[jacob29]

28 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

So funny....

so impossible enforcement.

I rest my case.

 

The OP you quoted made no comment on enforcement, and strongly hinted there is none. So no, he was not incorrect on every level.