More than 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. Here's what researchers say is to blame.

[thaibeachlovers]

32 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

"Taxing the rich won't help"?

 

Really?

 

It seems you have been fed fairy tales in a successful attempt to  convince you that taxing the rich is a bad thing.

 

Clinton increased taxes on the wealthy. He balanced the budget, and enjoyed the most prosperous economy up to that time.

 

Tell me again taxing the rich won't help.

They employ a force of accountants that help them use every loophole to avoid paying more than they have to.

Given that most politicians nowadays are in the "rich" category, does anyone think they will change the rules to make themselves poorer?

[fredwiggy]

 Failure to understand what others are going through then dictating they have to follow your self righteous guidance is actually, if not outright stupid, ignorance. Arrogance also leads to depression and loneliness. Being up there all alone (in your mind) , gets to be lonely. Pride comes before a fall. People vote for people they believe might help them. People, including half of my family, voted for Trump. I knew what Trump was all about 20 years before, and they still fail to see it. Biden can only do so much himself. We don't need one person in change anyway. People are living with their choices. That means everyone, including yourself. You've said you owned 5 units, and lived in one. That means the others were paying off your mortgage. How you got those units, by either an investment, or a loan, doesn't matter. There are many people that rent out to others, and have no children, living only for themselves. They don't understand what is needed to raise even one child, let alone 2 or more. And don't say, "if you can't afford kids, don't have them", because that also shows arrogance . Yes, some people have nothing, and shouldn't bring children into the world unless they have the means to at least provide the essentials, but most people have children because they want a nuclear family. Those that choose not to have children, okay, not a problem, that's your choice, but you can't make judgements on them because you haven't a clue about what it takes to raise a family yourself. Most people in America are struggling. I'm not talking about the overpaid athletes, actors or businessmen that are paid much more then they are worth. I'm talking about the normal people who work, eat, sleep, and live for their families.

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, Walker88 said:

First, I know full well the Laffer Curve was always a joke. Nobody knows its actual shape, and even if someone could plot it, the curve is likely also dynamic and changes over time. The Laffer Curve was just a cheap trick Republicans used to justify Reaganomics.

 

As for taxing the rich now, it won't help, because the problem as it exists today is nothing compared to what's coming.

 

This isn't the 1990s. I like Clinton, and he 'succeeded' by doing 2 things:  one was sitting back and letting the internet bubble run its course. That resulted in massive tax revenues, though much of that was capital gains on IPOs. (When the IPO Bubble blew up, the solution was to make credit easy and let everybody build 'wealth' through property, which led to house prices rising 300% while wages rose only 20%. Great until it blows up, which it did in 2008).

 

Second, Clinton's SecTreas Ruben figured a way to borrow from the Social Security Fund and Military pensions so that the debt was off balance sheet. The budget wasn't actually balanced, but it looked good. Every POTUS since has done the same thing (which is why the yearly reported budget deficit never matches the actual increase in National Debt....under trump the National Debt grew by $7,800,000,000,000 while the yearly deficits added up to less.)

 

Another difference from the Clinton Era is that the world is much more globalized. Labor has lost a lot more pricing power, so the needs of those who earn less are much greater---or the percentage living paycheck to paycheck is much greater---so that the tax increase on the wealthy to do what Clinton did would be so great as to disincentivize people or make them move their wealth and businesses offshore. Much of the exporting of jobs to Mexico, China, etc. was related to Clinton's tax increases. Nothing is done in a vacuum. Every act has consequences, most of which are only apparent after the fact.

 

The thing that will exacerbate this most of all, however, is AI. With all the job losses coming, the rich could be taxed at 100% (and assume they keep working, which they would not) and still the needs of the obviated would be so great that no budget could be balanced. This is unprecedented in all of human history.

 

As I wrote, I have no solution because I do not think there is one. Taxing the rich could work when there was much less globalization, less technological innovation, and no AI. Clinton took advantage of his time, and wisely so. That time is gone. We will see social disruption on a scale I would rather not imagine.

So, history shows that increasing the taxes on the rich generates a more prosperous economy. You are simply trying to rationalize why the history is meaningless.

 

As for Clinton borrowing money from the Social Security trust fund, Ronald Reagan was the first to do that, in 1983. Because he lowered taxes on the rich, and the deficit blew up.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

As I wrote, I have no solution because I do not think there is one.

Very, very true in the world we live in, which IMO is controlled by the uber rich. I have no doubt they get more wealthy every crisis.

 

There is a solution, but it would entail some very unpleasant things happening to a great many people.

 

Apparently even the French Revolution failed to completely remove all the aristocrats and soon enough it was back to business as usual.

[Danderman123]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They employ a force of accountants that help them use every loophole to avoid paying more than they have to.

Given that most politicians nowadays are in the "rich" category, does anyone think they will change the rules to make themselves poorer?

I believe that Biden introduced a minimum tax for the wealthy that requires payment of some amount of taxes. 

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Very, very true in the world we live in, which IMO is controlled by the uber rich. I have no doubt they get more wealthy every crisis.

 

There is a solution, but it would entail some very unpleasant things happening to a great many people.

 

Apparently even the French Revolution failed to completely remove all the aristocrats and soon enough it was back to business as usual.

No need for a revolution.

 

Just one blowout election where the Dems win big majorities in Congress. Then Congress will  pass a modest tax increase for the wealthy.

[Walker88]

38 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

"Taxing the rich won't help"?

 

Really?

 

It seems you have been fed fairy tales in a successful attempt to  convince you that taxing the rich is a bad thing.

 

Clinton increased taxes on the wealthy. He balanced the budget, and enjoyed the most prosperous economy up to that time.

 

Tell me again taxing the rich won't help.

Not sure this is another answer, but it is real world....

 

I spent many years working in Japan. I made a lot, so I was in a tax rate of---IIRC---75%. Maybe it was only 70%. I just know it was the highest rate.

 

Japan still had massive budget deficits despite those tax rates. In fact, among G7 nations, the debt/GDP wasn't even close. Japan was Greece, albeit with more smoke and mirrors.

 

Today, the Japanese economy is a basket case financially. Its population is becoming an inverted pyramid, while its pension system is massively underfunded. (I could write a long tome on the peculiarity of Japanese accounting that allowed this underfunding to happen and remain somewhat invisible.)

 

Japan could go to a 99% max tax rate and they still wouldn't be able to make ends meet. They are just the canary in the coal mine, as we all have the same thing coming.

[KhunLA]

You can raise the taxes all you want, and tax the rich as much as you want.

 

But just like yours/ours, household checkbook, if you don't stop spending more than you take in, you will continue to go backwards.  

 

They/govt, unlike us, seem to have an unlimited, revolving credit line, YOU ARE PAYING FOR.

 

The more taxes they get, the more they spend, give away, steal.  They don't care, it's your money, not there's.  they got theirs.  You gave them their high salary & months of recess/vacation time.

 

That is and was your choice ... continue on, but stop crying about it.

 

That's a FACT ... keep paying if you want ... UP2U.

[Walker88]

6 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

So, history shows that increasing the taxes on the rich generates a more prosperous economy. You are simply trying to rationalize why the history is meaningless.

 

As for Clinton borrowing money from the Social Security trust fund, Ronald Reagan was the first to do that, in 1983. Because he lowered taxes on the rich, and the deficit blew up.

 

 

I disagree. There have been times when increasing taxes on the rich helped, owing to the particular circumstances of the time. Clinton took advantage of his time.

 

Such conditions no longer exist. The combination of globalization, technological innovation, labor obviation and the coming tsunami from AI, render Clinton's solutions useless.

 

I have never been a proponent of using the term 'this time is different', but today it is time for that phrase.

 

There is no solution. I don't even think Andrew Yang's idea of a monthly stipend to all citizens will help.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but the math does not add up. We've carried this gambit as far as possible. but to use another overused term---Perfect Storm---a world that is globalized, where debt is around $280,000,000,000,000 and rates are rising, where bad debts have been masked by generous accounting and (previous) near-zero rates, where the Ponzi Scheme of pensions and Social Security is being hit by an inversion of the demographic pyramid, and now AI is coming to play PacMan to even white color jobs, says we are getting hit with a Perfect Storm.

[Cult of the Sun]

When I see charts I shut down. Must be from working in insurance. Interesting westerners can't have a conversation without mentioning trump?  I'm not saying this to be insulting but it would be a good poll as to how many think it is possible to talk the night in the company of a westerner w/o mentioning  trump.

 

I think less than 5% would say that is possible. No one finds this level of brainwashing strange either.  Now isn't that strange? ????

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

You do realize that almost 90% of Americans use 30 year mortgages right? 

 

Wasting money on things such as drugs, cigarettes, private schools, expensive cars, and huge homes they really can't afford isn't too positive, and shows a lack of judgement. 

90% ... why, do they think a 15 yr mortgage will cost twice as much.  30 yrs is offered, not forced on them.  People don't think for themselves, they do what they are told.

 

Extreme lack of judgement ... their choice, not based on common sense.

 

Again, it is and always will be about choices.  Live with them.

 

They seem to sacrifice their future for wanting now.   I sacrificed my now (then), a wee bit, for my future, now.  Their choice vs my choice ...

 

 

[fredwiggy]

5 minutes ago, Cult of the Sun said:

When I see charts I shut down. Must be from working in insurance. Interesting westerners can't have a conversation without mentioning trump?  I'm not saying this to be insulting but it would be a good poll as to how many think it is possible to talk the night in the company of a westerner w/o mentioning  trump.

 

I think less than 5% would say that is possible. No one finds this level of brainwashing strange either.  Now isn't that strange? ????

I'm in that 5%. I couldn't care less about politicians because it's been a very long time since I trusted any of them. They aren't necessary. All that is , is a governing body of maybe 8 or 10 like minded people from all areas, that is there to help everyone, and tax the amount that is appropriate for each individual. Stop voting for people because they have money but instead of their track record. One person in charge has never been or never will be a good thing, no matter what BS he brings to the table. They have to fix the problems that were dealt them, and pick up the pieces in an ever changing economy and population. The president, or anyone else in charge, is still a puppet. A homeless man with little education can have a few good ideas.That doesn't mean he should be in charge of a nation. Too much infighting doesn't give everyone a chance to figure out what is right. What works, and is in the best interest of everyone, you use. People become puppets, believing someone else will do the job and following. That is shown daily here, with rich keeping the poor suppressed because of a lack of education.

[fredwiggy]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

90% ... why, do they think a 15 yr mortgage will cost twice as much.  30 yrs is offered, not forced on them.  People don't think for themselves, they do what they are told.

 

Extreme lack of judgement ... their choice, not based on common sense.

 

Again, it is and always will be about choices.  Live with them.

 

They seem to sacrifice their future for wanting now.   I sacrificed my now (then), a wee bit, for my future, now.  Their choice vs my choice ...

 

 

They use a 30 year because the payments they can now afford. Of course paying a loan off in half the time saves money, but it's what they have now that matters.

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

They use a 30 year because the payments they can now afford. Of course paying a loan off in half the time saves money, but it's what they have now that matters.

And, as I pointed out, it can also be a question of opportunity cost. The money that they don't spend on repaying the loan can be used to fuel investments that will more than pay for the greater overall lifetime cost of the mortgage.

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

They use a 30 year because the payments they can now afford. Of course paying a loan off in half the time saves money, but it's what they have now that matters.

It what the accept now that matters.

 

And when they have extra money at the end of the month, what do they do.

... party

... buy more crap, they don't need, whether cash or credit

... take a holiday, as they deserve it.

 

OR ... they could put it toward the principle of the mortgage, for instant ROI, that cost them nothing.  Example: same monthly mortgage I posted earlier, 30yr/7.97% ... but they can't afford a 15 yr, as $170 more a month.  but find they have $75 a month extra every month ... hmm what to spend it on, or, yea, pay down the mortgage.   Results: over $50k saved, and pay off 8 yrs early.   To me, that's common sense, but that's me.  Small sacrifices = big gains

 

Their are choices.

https://www.mortgagecalculator.org/calculators/what-if-i-pay-more-calculator.php#top

 

[The Theory]

13 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Biden draws the line at $400,000 and over.

That is for all other Americans, not for his son. ????

[soalbundy]

36 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

People are voting for the idiots that are leading them.  How stupid are you to keep re-electing the same people, and expecting change.

 

Stupidity ... comes in all forms.  Live with your choices, that includes your elected politicians, career politicians.  Giving away control of your livelihood to people who don't care about you ... well, that just stupid.

 

I think someone describe stupid as, 'doing the same thing repeatedly, and expecting different results' ... that describes your voters.

 

Everyone has choices, but fail to exercise them.

Politicians don't rule, markets do. Politics can provide a framework in which the markets can operate, if the markets don't like the framework it collapses. This is what we are seeing now a situation made worse by external events such as Ukraine and crop failures due to global warming. Societies run on money, like petrol to a car, take away the petrol and it stops working. When politics start interrupting market forces too vigorously, trade wars eg. due to ideologies then things start to break down. Unfortunately politics is a closed loop, the politics of one country is influenced by the politics of other countries as well as their own civil service (the true operating arm of any country), even a dictator like Xi doesn't have ultimate power, politicians in the West have even less. You can swap politicians as you will, the same problems are on the table, market forces must have room to play their part as the engine, politics must supply the fuel for the car to work, both have to work hand in hand but as I have already said, politicians are often constrained due to external forces, ie. events, global politics and public opinion. 

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

And, as I pointed out, it can also be a question of opportunity cost. The money that they don't spend on repaying the loan can be used to fuel investments that will more than pay for the greater overall lifetime cost of the mortgage.

Really ...

... Show me 1, just 1, that is NO cost, NO risk, GUARANTEED ROI.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They employ a force of accountants that help them use every loophole to avoid paying more than they have to.

Given that most politicians nowadays are in the "rich" category, does anyone think they will change the rules to make themselves poorer?

Actually, the Democrats did exactly that in the previous Congress and would have imposed a lot more but for Dinos Sinema and Manchin. And Biden wants to impose further increases on the wealthy to financially secure Social Security. Republicans want to reduce benefits instead.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Really ...

... Show me 1, just 1, that is NO cost, NO risk, GUARANTEED ROI.

Thanks for the ridiculous criterion. Clearly you don't understand how capitalism and the free market economy work.

[Trippy]

8 hours ago, bbko said:

Why don't all you naysayers STHU and let Regan's promise of the GOP's trickle down work it's way down? Sure it's been over 40 years, but those tax cut for the rich will help the common folk eventuality, right? I mean the GOP wouldn't lie to us right?

Do you even remember what the economy was like under Carter? Runaway inflation, sky high interest rates, the whole economy was a mess. Reagan fixed all that.

[EVENKEEL]

There's a conspiracy afloat in the US to make more people poor. Probably not but it sure feels like it. Inheritance laws differ in states. In Ca if you want to pass down property to the kids, all but one property will have it's property value reassessed for property tax purposes. That means many will have to sell their inheritance because the new property tax will prohibit many from keeping the property.  

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thanks for the ridiculous criterion. Clearly you don't understand how capitalism and the free market economy work.

You do know who you are talking to.  I apparently know capitalism and free market economy more than the 60% of Yanks living month to month, and hoping they have enough to retire at 67 yrs old.

 

So you got nothing but deflection, and repetitive replies.

Edited September 2, 2023 by KhunLA

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Again, that demands a definition. Some folks own property worth millions but are not rich.

Anybody who has any net worth over a  million. It's not that hard.

[ozimoron]

45 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I disagree. There have been times when increasing taxes on the rich helped, owing to the particular circumstances of the time. Clinton took advantage of his time.

 

Such conditions no longer exist. The combination of globalization, technological innovation, labor obviation and the coming tsunami from AI, render Clinton's solutions useless.

 

I have never been a proponent of using the term 'this time is different', but today it is time for that phrase.

 

There is no solution. I don't even think Andrew Yang's idea of a monthly stipend to all citizens will help.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but the math does not add up. We've carried this gambit as far as possible. but to use another overused term---Perfect Storm---a world that is globalized, where debt is around $280,000,000,000,000 and rates are rising, where bad debts have been masked by generous accounting and (previous) near-zero rates, where the Ponzi Scheme of pensions and Social Security is being hit by an inversion of the demographic pyramid, and now AI is coming to play PacMan to even white color jobs, says we are getting hit with a Perfect Storm.

Most countries tax more, do they steal more?

[EVENKEEL]

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

It what the accept now that matters.

 

And when they have extra money at the end of the month, what do they do.

... party

... buy more crap, they don't need, whether cash or credit

... take a holiday, as they deserve it.

 

OR ... they could put it toward the principle of the mortgage, for instant ROI, that cost them nothing.  Example: same monthly mortgage I posted earlier, 30yr/7.97% ... but they can't afford a 15 yr, as $170 more a month.  but find they have $75 a month extra every month ... hmm what to spend it on, or, yea, pay down the mortgage.   Results: over $50k saved, and pay off 8 yrs early.   To me, that's common sense, but that's me.  Small sacrifices = big gains

 

Their are choices.

https://www.mortgagecalculator.org/calculators/what-if-i-pay-more-calculator.php#top

 

I had a 15 yr mortgage. Sure you can do a 30 yr and pay more monthly, but that takes discipline, which many lack.

[EVENKEEL]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Anybody who has any net worth over a  million. It's not that hard.

I'm rich, yoowee. I didn't realize that. Thanks.

[KhunLA]

Just now, EVENKEEL said:

I had a 15 yr mortgage. Sure you can do a 30 yr and pay more monthly, but that takes discipline, which many lack.

It also is their 'choice'. and they have to live with it.  Not raise my taxes, because they made the wrong choice, and now need a helping hand.

[ozimoron]

Just now, EVENKEEL said:

I'm rich, yoowee. I didn't realize that. Thanks.

Then you should be taxed more.

 

Here's the problem. Think George Orwell.

 

Billionaires want to build a new city in rural California.

 

She’s suspicious that the group’s real purpose is “to create a city for the elite” under the guise of more housing.

 

https://apnews.com/article/silicon-valley-tech-investors-new-city-housing-35f91416dd7d84ecb03ed08199d87dd5

[Danderman123]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

You can raise the taxes all you want, and tax the rich as much as you want.

 

But just like yours/ours, household checkbook, if you don't stop spending more than you take in, you will continue to go backwards.  

 

They/govt, unlike us, seem to have an unlimited, revolving credit line, YOU ARE PAYING FOR.

 

The more taxes they get, the more they spend, give away, steal.  They don't care, it's your money, not there's.  they got theirs.  You gave them their high salary & months of recess/vacation time.

 

That is and was your choice ... continue on, but stop crying about it.

 

That's a FACT ... keep paying if you want ... UP2U.

and yet, Bill Clinton balanced the budget.