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Is FireFox now realy the worst browser ever?


BenStark

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8 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Google have simply taken down the proprietary business model of Apple and Microsoft when it comes to software.

Unfortunately not when it comes to Android which is becoming more and more locked down.

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9 hours ago, BenStark said:

I think the comments have more to do with the nature of this forum, where it seems to be a "must" to always go against everything posted.

So you wont be posting any more Ben ?

 

Certainly not if some people actually disagree with your view..................:coffee1:

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It seems like over the last years or so, every major release seems to break another web application that I use frequently.  The last was Lazada where the product pages won't load, just blank space.  I'm moving more and more of my stuff over to either Brave or Chromium and slowly giving up Firefox.  The only major positive it has is when I use the Linux accessibility widget to zoom the screen in and out, it doesn't effect the size of the Firefox display.  If I do that in Brave or Chromium, it zooms the focus of the web page in and out. 

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2 hours ago, NextG said:

t’s ok. I know you think that you are a genius and can outthink anyone here. Rushing to look for a source that confirms your statements but somehow falling short. 

For some reason, you are just not able/willing to understand the very basic concept of the word first used by me in this Topic...THRASHING. And so, let me try again, because I do not wish to have you think that what I stated, originally, is incorrect:

 

"Thrashing can occur in any type of computer architecture, including HDDs, SSDs, and RAM. However, it is more likely to occur in systems with limited memory, such as laptops and mobile devices."  YES!  This is exactly what I have already stated MANY times.

 

If you want to know more, then you can read the following...

 

 

"The technical term for thrashing in computer science is thrashing. It is a condition in which a computer system spends a significant amount of time swapping memory pages between main memory and virtual memory, which can cause a significant decrease in performance.

Thrashing can occur in a variety of ways, but it is most commonly caused by:

  • Insufficient memory: If a computer system does not have enough memory to store all of the active processes, it will start swapping pages between main memory and virtual memory. This can cause thrashing, as the CPU will be constantly interrupted by page faults.
  • Too many processes: If a computer system has too many active processes, it can also cause thrashing. This is because the CPU will be constantly switching between processes, which will also lead to page faults.
  • Poor page replacement algorithm: The page replacement algorithm is the method used by the operating system to decide which pages to swap out of main memory. If the page replacement algorithm is not efficient, it can lead to thrashing.

Thrashing can have a significant impact on computer performance. It can cause the following problems:

  • Slow response time: Thrashing can cause the computer to respond slowly to user requests. This is because the CPU will be spending most of its time swapping pages, rather than executing instructions.
  • High CPU usage: Thrashing can cause the CPU usage to spike. This is because the CPU will be constantly interrupted by page faults.
  • High disk usage: Thrashing can also cause the disk usage to spike. This is because the operating system will be constantly writing and reading pages to and from disk.

Thrashing can occur in any type of computer architecture, including HDDs, SSDs, and RAM. However, it is more likely to occur in systems with limited memory, such as laptops and mobile devices."

 

I can agree that it would be more authoritative if I were to quote and reference academic literature on this question, and so....

 

If the commenter PERSISTS in spouting inaccurate information, then I will have no other recourse besides quoting from several respected Linux/Windows reference resources which I have stored on my HDD-SSD-GoogleDRIVE.

 

Why this guy is so hellbent on promoting misunderstanding of such a simple computer-science concept is completely beyond me.

Or, maybe I can guess, too.

 

He asked where I began learning what little I know about computer science?

 

Well....HERE, for one:   https://www.cis.upenn.edu/

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, NextG said:

Just a couple of examples that overrule your simplistic thinking. 

Here is an example of Processor Cache thrashing which does NOT involve any HDD.

Or, is this also too simplistic for you?

 

image.png.787780a70be6bbd7ebe54f3b02c7513e.png

 

Seems you are wrong...again.

The term "thrashing" is still alive and well, and still being used by IT-CIS guys around the world...

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

For some reason, you are just not able/willing to understand the very basic concept of the word first used by me in this Topic...THRASHING. And so, let me try again, because I do not wish to have you think that what I stated, originally, is incorrect:

 

"Thrashing can occur in any type of computer architecture, including HDDs, SSDs, and RAM. However, it is more likely to occur in systems with limited memory, such as laptops and mobile devices."  YES!  This is exactly what I have already stated MANY times.

 

If you want to know more, then you can read the following...

 

 

"The technical term for thrashing in computer science is thrashing. It is a condition in which a computer system spends a significant amount of time swapping memory pages between main memory and virtual memory, which can cause a significant decrease in performance.

Thrashing can occur in a variety of ways, but it is most commonly caused by:

  • Insufficient memory: If a computer system does not have enough memory to store all of the active processes, it will start swapping pages between main memory and virtual memory. This can cause thrashing, as the CPU will be constantly interrupted by page faults.
  • Too many processes: If a computer system has too many active processes, it can also cause thrashing. This is because the CPU will be constantly switching between processes, which will also lead to page faults.
  • Poor page replacement algorithm: The page replacement algorithm is the method used by the operating system to decide which pages to swap out of main memory. If the page replacement algorithm is not efficient, it can lead to thrashing.

Thrashing can have a significant impact on computer performance. It can cause the following problems:

  • Slow response time: Thrashing can cause the computer to respond slowly to user requests. This is because the CPU will be spending most of its time swapping pages, rather than executing instructions.
  • High CPU usage: Thrashing can cause the CPU usage to spike. This is because the CPU will be constantly interrupted by page faults.
  • High disk usage: Thrashing can also cause the disk usage to spike. This is because the operating system will be constantly writing and reading pages to and from disk.

Thrashing can occur in any type of computer architecture, including HDDs, SSDs, and RAM. However, it is more likely to occur in systems with limited memory, such as laptops and mobile devices."

 

I can agree that it would be more authoritative if I were to quote and reference academic literature on this question, and so....

 

If the commenter PERSISTS in spouting inaccurate information, then I will have no other recourse besides quoting from several respected Linux/Windows reference resources which I have stored on my HDD-SSD-GoogleDRIVE.

 

Why this guy is so hellbent on promoting misunderstanding of such a simple computer-science concept is completely beyond me.

Or, maybe I can guess, too.

 

He asked where I began learning what little I know about computer science?

 

Well....HERE, for one:   https://www.cis.upenn.edu/

 

 

 

 

There is no misunderstanding and I don’t need to run around cutting and pasting in the hope that I will change my mind. 
Thrashing referred to the action of the HDD; thrashing about wildly. 

But let’s leave that for a moment, ironically because you accused me of being too literal ????

Because firstly, for ‘thrashing’ to occur when utilising an SSD, especially when mainly just running a Browser indicates to me that there is a bigger problem. Which is what I meant in the first place and have referred to throughout. 

Talk about taking things too literally…

The bigger problem is you. Which is why I also mentioned you cleaning up at least once in a while. A bad workman always blames his tools…

I am correct when I state the term came from the action of a spinning hard disk. You are using it in an arcane manner. There is no ‘thrashing’ with an SSD. ‘Thrashing’ is short for ‘Disk Thrashing’. With an SSD, you might get away with calling it ‘Virtual Memory Thrashing’ if you like. 
 

But again, the problem is you, thrashing the system, alongside poor maintenance. 
Literal or not, I was alluding to the problem being you somewhere along the line. 
 

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33 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Here is an example of Processor Cache thrashing which does NOT involve any HDD.

Or, is this also too simplistic for you?

 

image.png.787780a70be6bbd7ebe54f3b02c7513e.png

 

Seems you are wrong...again.

The term "thrashing" is still alive and well, and still being used by IT-CIS guys around the world...

 

 

 

 

One IT guy ????

Dear GG

Once again, here, you referred to HDD and SSD and that the problem with your system when running a Browser was the disk thrashing. 
I replied incredulous that someone was having such a problem running a Browser with 16 GB of RAM. 
There is no way that you can view 100 Tabs at the same time. 

Anyone can deliberately overload a system. Again the thrashing likely isn’t because of the “lousy system” or a slow SSD…but possibly from too many processes running at the same time. Which might have little to do with the SSD at all. 
 

Not unlike your assumption that Browsers crash only because of low memory. 
 

It’s a bit more complicated than your simplistic suggestions. 
You are getting sidetracked by the very thing of which you accused me. You have become obsessed with the usage of a term instead of the ACTION. I am not bothered if you utilise the term, but the term derived from ‘disk thrashing’. We understand where it came from and why we use it. 
But back to the point. What evidence do you have of it being SSD ‘thrashing’ and what steps, if any, have you taken to mitigate the issue?
 

Edited by NextG
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13 minutes ago, NextG said:

Once again, here, you referred to HDD and SSD and that the problem with your system when running a Browser was the disk thrashing. 

I stated that increasing RAM would reduce thrashing: "b. I can also use part of the 64 GB to create a RAMDISK and work SUPER FAST.  No more THRASHING of read/writes to SSD or HDD, and this means that my internet experience will be much improved."  And, this is TRUE.

 

You stated that this was nonsense.

 

You also stated that thrashing does not occur on solid-state-devices. (This is FALSE)

 

Do you wish to re-think your opinion of what may or may not be nonsense?

 

image.png.890f82746aa42db29b6b45d39bb3fda6.png

 

Please refer to this definition of THRASHING:

 

What does this state?

"The term may also be used to refer to any situation in which multiple processes are competing for the same resource, and the excessive swapping back and forth between connections causes a slowdown."

 

This is no more, and no less, than I stated in my original comment.

Yet, you seem to disagree.

Why?

 

Everybody knows that this is true.

Why don't you?

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, NextG said:

You are getting sidetracked by the very thing of which you accused me. You have become obsessed with the usage of a term instead of the ACTION. I am not bothered if you utilise the term, but the term derived from ‘disk thrashing’. We understand where it came from and why we use it. 

I am VERY WELL AWARE of how this term THRASHING came to be used.

I have been using HDDs for a long time.

I have ears, too, and I know the sound.

 

However, I was not referring to HDD thrashing.

I was referring to I/O limitations.

I was referring to increasing main memory.

I was referring to using a RAMDISK by utilizing some of the 64GB of DDR4 memory, which would reduce read/writes to SSD/HDD when doing heavy multitasking, maybe with AUTOCAD running, or whatever, while also using an internet browser.

The point is that you stated that THRASHING is a term applied only in the context of HDDs.  And...this is FALSE.

 

You can read your statement, above.

Your comment is still in this Topic, for all to see.

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, NextG said:

Thrashing of writes to SSD?! You are writing almost complete nonsense ???? What’s the full spec of your “too slow and too lousy” PC? You can’t have ‘thrashing’ from solid state devices

"The following animation demonstrates how SSD drives can thrash in the presence of random writes; it is a part of Working with cheap flash drives by Arnd Bergmann."

 

https://lwn.net/Articles/428799/

 

a. Everybody knows that "thrashing" can occur NOT ONLY in the HDD context. (Everybody BUT you, it seems.)

 

b.  If you need further evidence that YOUR STATEMENT, quoted above, is FALSE...then...please just click on these links, and read further:

image.png.3a2693bb0c7e0bc6dd7f49c2e0756085.png

 

c.  Of course, I realize that no matter how many sources I reference, you will never be satisfied. But this is not my fault. And, the misconception is not mine.

 

Here, in the above case, the article is about a decade old. Still, this short article is speaking of thrashing on SSDs, which is something that you stated NEVER HAPPENS. (FALSE)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

"The following animation demonstrates how SSD drives can thrash in the presence of random writes; it is a part of Working with cheap flash drives by Arnd Bergmann."

 

https://lwn.net/Articles/428799/

 

a. Everybody knows that "thrashing" can occur NOT ONLY in the HDD context. (Everybody BUT you, it seems.)

 

b.  If you need further evidence that YOUR STATEMENT, quoted above, is FALSE...then...please just click on these links, and read further:

image.png.3a2693bb0c7e0bc6dd7f49c2e0756085.png

 

c.  Of course, I realize that no matter how many sources I reference, you will never be satisfied. But this is not my fault. And, the misconception is not mine.

 

Here, in the above case, the article is about a decade old. Still, this short article is speaking of thrashing on SSDs, which is something that you stated NEVER HAPPENS. (FALSE)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see that you are still somewhat obsessing about the term usage. As I’ve written a few times already, we understand the use of the term thrashing is related to virtual memory on a spinning disk drive and if you would like to utilise the term for SSD we can continue the discussion. 
You are suggesting that the SSD is the bottleneck in your system.  Do you have any evidence of SSD ‘thrashing’ on your PC, subsequently slowing it down? What steps have you taken to mitigate the issue?
The trouble here is that you read a lot but only have a superficial understanding of what you are reading. 
Because next, I’d like to discuss your understanding of creation of a RAMdisk to 64GB of RAM ???? and the benefits you imagine thereof. 

 

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23 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

You are correct.

I used Mozilla.

image.png.69c90e872fffddf06f9bb4c05c699d84.png

 

Which turned into Firefox.

The only advantage to Firefox (for me) over other browsers was MULTITABs

 

Now, Firefox has become GARBAGE.

 

A decade ago, I used both CHROMIUM AND CHROME, Chromium being open-source.

 

I stopped using Chromium when I started using Linux less.

 

These days, it's nothing but Chrome for me.

I can open about 100 tabs without it crashing.

And, it integrates very well with Google Meet, Docs, Sheets, etc.

 

Chrome can save my passwords, quite well.

 

WHY Oh WHY would I use Firefox.

Also, Firefox has always had a stupid name, and I hated them for getting rid of the name Mozilla.

 

I have an old computer with 16 GB of DDR3 Ram which is too slow and too lousy for me.

 

Maybe soon, I will buy a reasonably priced i5+MoBo Combo, and 64 GB of DDR4.

 

Why?

a. More Tabs, of course.

b. I can also use part of the 64 GB to create a RAMDISK and work SUPER FAST.  No more THRASHING of read/writes to SSD or HDD, and this means that my internet experience will be much improved.

c. I will also be able to post more Topics on TV if I have 1000 tabs open, simultaneously.

 

 

Okay… let’s take what was written step by step. 
Mozilla turning into Firefox. WRONG. 
Firefox becoming Garbage. Most disagree. 
Your theory that Browser crashes are usually down to low memory. WRONG. 
 

So let’s not deflect with an obsession over literal term usage. There is no need for ‘SSD thrashing’ on a 16 GB RAM system utilising a Browser and some Google utilities. 

 

Then to the 16GB RAM PC… You will note that thrashing occurs in reference to devices with a relatively small amount of RAM. Your device has 16GB of RAM. There would not be excessive swaps when simply utilising a Browser, hence no ‘thrashing’ on the SSD. Do you even have an SSD fitted? Which model? Does it have DRAM? Try reducing the size of Virtual Memory. Clean your cache, reduce size of Virtual Memory, reboot and see if your 100 Tabs reload. 
I had few issues utilising 100 Tabs in Opera on a laptop with 4GB… so I’m going with PEBCAK on this one. 

Edited by NextG
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59 minutes ago, NextG said:

So let’s not deflect with an obsession over literal term usage. There is no need for ‘SSD thrashing’ on a 16 GB RAM system utilising a Browser and some Google utilities. 

I have only One piece of FINAL advice for you:

 

IF you might ever aspire to become a scientist, then you will need to constantly remind yourself to do one thing:

 

You will need to refrain from making blanket statements, no matter how difficult this may be for you.

 

Blanket statements (especially when they are blatantly false, as in your case) can never be logically defended.

 

This is why you are not a scientist.

And, this is one of several reasons why scientists do not make blanket statements.

 

The above is my gift to you.

 

But let it not be said that you have not, also, given me a great gift this morning, and I am most grateful for that which I have received.

 

Your gift to me was to remind me what I once knew, but had forgotten.

 

I am speaking of a humorous but true observation made by my friend, Mark Twain, who quipped:

 

 

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

 

 

But this fond remembrance of Twain's quote was not your only gift to me, today.

 

You have also reminded me, once again, but more forcefully, of the fact that time is precious;

And the time that we have should not be wasted following what some would consider to be...

 

TRIVIAL PURSUITS

 

 

 

 

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On 9/12/2023 at 4:41 AM, BenStark said:

But what bothers me the most is that while you are writing anything, be it an email, a post on AN, or whatever else online, and you type a bit fast, you can expect the browser to reload a few times before you have completed your email or post.

It's a problem for you, but not for me using that browser. Never had any of the problems you relate caused by Firefox, and I've been using it for years. More likely something in your set up.

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On 9/11/2023 at 6:41 PM, BenStark said:

These days, using Firefox means "this page has crashed" 15 times a day is not an exception.

Try this: Click the menu button, then click Help => Troubleshoot Mode. Restart in troubleshoot mode and check if the page crashes continue.

 

If they stopped, then the problem is most likely one of your extensions. You can then start in normal mode and try to disable all your extensions and then turn them on one at a time while you check if the problem reappears.

 

Read more about the troubleshoot mode:

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/troubleshoot-extensions-themes-to-fix-problems

 

If you still have the problem in Troubleshoot Mode you can try to refresh Firefox by typing this in the address line: about:support and then click the Refresh Firefox button.

 

Read more about what a refresh does:

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/refresh-firefox-reset-add-ons-and-settings

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2 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I have only One piece of FINAL advice for you:

 

IF you might ever aspire to become a scientist, then you will need to constantly remind yourself to do one thing:

 

You will need to refrain from making blanket statements, no matter how difficult this may be for you.

 

Blanket statements (especially when they are blatantly false, as in your case) can never be logically defended.

 

This is why you are not a scientist.

And, this is one of several reasons why scientists do not make blanket statements.

 

The above is my gift to you.

 

But let it not be said that you have not, also, given me a great gift this morning, and I am most grateful for that which I have received.

 

Your gift to me was to remind me what I once knew, but had forgotten.

 

I am speaking of a humorous but true observation made by my friend, Mark Twain, who quipped:

 

 

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

 

 

But this fond remembrance of Twain's quote was not your only gift to me, today.

 

You have also reminded me, once again, but more forcefully, of the fact that time is precious;

And the time that we have should not be wasted following what some would consider to be...

 

TRIVIAL PURSUITS

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but I’m not going to bother to read your GARBAGE ????

Your posts from the very beginning have been utter nonsense. You have no evidence of ‘thrashing’ of your SSD. It’s quite possible that you don’t even have an SSD fitted at all ☺️
You’ve also made pronouncements of Browsers crashing because of inadequate memory, but have gone strangely quiet about that, whilst banging on about the usage of the term thrashing, without any evidence that thrashing is taking place at all. Then have the gall to make condescending posts about what it takes to be a scientist. If honestly, you’ve just come off looking a total fraud and that’s putting it mildly. 
So please don’t try to insult me with your pretending that you know anything at all. 
You have deflected and/of ignored every single question of SUBSTANCE whilst devoting each and every reply to arguing about whether computer scientists have adopted the term ‘thrashing’ for other devices other than HDD. That was your TRIVIAL PURSUIT. 
How about we discuss the ACTUAL TECHNICAL ISSUES , rather than nonsensical semantics?

You don’t because you cannot. 

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8 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I was referring to using a RAMDISK by utilizing some of the 64GB of DDR4 memory, which would reduce read/writes to SSD/HDD when doing heavy multitasking

You mentioned this now a few times but it makes no sense to me. Why would a ramdisk help when running into swapping issues (context is thrashing)? You want to page out from RAM to.... RAM? You'd just waste your ram for no gain whatsoever.

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27 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

You mentioned this now a few times but it makes no sense to me. Why would a ramdisk help when running into swapping issues (context is thrashing)? You want to page out from RAM to.... RAM? You'd just waste your ram for no gain whatsoever.

Wow, Man, I have NO Time ...

 

I have NO Time to reply to you...

 

Instead...

 

Just enjoy the music...

 

 

Or...

Go back to school.

Yes, I know the video does not answer your question, entirely.

However, just enjoy the music.

 

Or...

Buy this....

 

 

I plan to buy one.

 

Why?

 

Just, to minimize THRASHING...

Of COURSE!

 

 

 

Edited by GammaGlobulin
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7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's a problem for you, but not for me using that browser. Never had any of the problems you relate caused by Firefox, and I've been using it for years. More likely something in your set up.

It's certainly not only me, as in another thread there were others who experienced the same.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1299110-tried-to-fix-my-keyboard/?do=findComment&comment=18169773

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1299110-tried-to-fix-my-keyboard/?do=findComment&comment=18196734

 

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I use Firefox. I have tried Chrome, Edge, Brave, and Opera but I have always returned to Firefox. First, it has the best built-in privacy features and you can add additional privacy add-ons. Second, the built-in read only mode is very useful for me. You can get similar add-ons for Chromium browsers but I find they don't work as well. Third, it's customizable. You can decrease just the text size for example without affecting the other aspects of the brower. Other browsers like Edge, Chrome, and Opera mirror your system settings. So if you set the display at a resoluton of 125 percent, as I do, the toolbars and text of those browsers will increase accordingly, taking up too much screen space.

 

I know some people complain that Firefox requires too much processing power but I think it's on par with Chrome. I have an occasional crash, usually when I'm running multiple videos at the same time but they're rare. 

 

Maybe if I had 20 or 30 tabs open at the same time, I'd experience more problems but for me that's never necessary.  Seven or eight is more than enough and I have no problems with that many open tabs.

 

I avoided the mobile version for a long time because it was big, bulky, and processor and battery intensive, but it's improved a lot since and now it's my default browser on mobile, which I can synch with my desktop version. I prefer using the browser to apps for things like YouTube, Twitter (X), and spotify because I can block the ads.

 

Having said all that, no browser is perfect. But in principle I avoid Microsft and Google products whenever I can.

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7 hours ago, eisfeld said:

You mentioned this now a few times but it makes no sense to me. Why would a ramdisk help when running into swapping issues (context is thrashing)? You want to page out from RAM to.... RAM? You'd just waste your ram for no gain whatsoever.

One word… fraud. 
Just reads, doesn’t fully understand, but expounds theories as if he does. Then will try to bluff his way through it. Unfortunately for him, someone called his bluff. 
Humility is a thing. He should try it. 

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On 9/13/2023 at 1:29 AM, GammaGlobulin said:

Wow, Man, I have NO Time ...

 

I have NO Time to reply to you...

 

Instead...

 

Just enjoy the music...

 

 

Or...

Go back to school.

Yes, I know the video does not answer your question, entirely.

However, just enjoy the music.

 

Or...

Buy this....

 

 

I plan to buy one.

 

Why?

 

Just, to minimize THRASHING...

Of COURSE!

 

 

 

Neither the videos nor your reply address the point even in the slightest. You are just showing that writing to a ramdisk is faster than writing to permanent memory. Well duh of course. But thrashing/swapping happens when the OS runs out of ram and swaps existing pages out to disk to free up space for more recently used memory. Swapping ram pages out to a ramdisk (which is just ram) makes no sense. It would copy ram from one location to another which is useless work.

 

And why are you always so rude as if you know everything and everyone else is clueless? Terrible attitude. A ramdisk only makes sense in very specific cases and virtually never for stuff like a browser.

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16 hours ago, NextG said:

One word… fraud. 
Just reads, doesn’t fully understand, but expounds theories as if he does. Then will try to bluff his way through it. Unfortunately for him, someone called his bluff. 
Humility is a thing. He should try it. 

Yea it's getting a bit much. So many threads in which GammaGlobulin tries to sound smart and attacks others but when it touches topics in which I am properly experienced like this one (I've developed software for over 20 years including work on kernels, I guarantee you you have used my code in some way or another) I just know he doesn't understand the topic apart from a very superficial level. He then always posts Youtube videos or links to pages that are vaguely revelant but usually miss some crucial point. Seems like his knowledge comes from this kind of content. In german we have a term which translates to something like "dangerous half knowledge". Just the right amount of knowledge to make one think one understands a topic but not really. There are tons of expats on this forum which are professional software developers so in a thread like this those "experts" get exposed very quickly - at least to people who are really knowledgable in the field.

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