Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

 

My turn for one of those simple questions people keep raising:

 

From reading what both posters above have written, it seems that the criteria determining whether to file or not, is dictated by whether there is a penalty involved if you don't file, rather than what the RD requires in the tax code! eg:

 

RD says you need to file if your income is above the threshold.

 

Posters say, if we don't owe tax, there's no penalty involved if we don't so why bother! Hmmm!

 

It's difficult to know what to advise others on this, the RD criteria or the posters criteria, call me silly but I'll have to go with the former! 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

 

I usually do not waste my time and energy trying to follow unenforced or unenforceable rules/law. To me, it does not make sense.

 

To each their own.

 

I understand your rationale but it seems unreasonable to provide guidance to others by saying that there is a law you can safely ignore because it's not being enforced at present or there's no associated fine, yet. Everyone needs to know what the law says and make their own decision whether to follow it or not.

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, bdenner said:

It's started already!! Renewed my retirement extension late Dec. using the 65K rule.

New hoops, as a self funded retiree I had to show em my phone with ASX dividend payments showing tax had been payed. Only gave em one as an example and pointed out the franking credits. Had em knackered, the supervisor spent 45 minutes on the phone before they gave me another 12 months.

I'm going to regard this as anecdotal, probably an Immi officer chancing his luck and hoping.

[bdenner]

11 hours ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Uh huh.  News flash - it hasn't "started already".  

 

  Since the new "rule" was scheduled to take effect on 1 Jan 2024, your December extension renewal had no tax implications whatsoever under this new interpretation.

 

  Sounds a lot like a rogue IO trying to earn some extra pocket money.  

OK maybe I should have written "the foreign income scrutiny has started"

Udon Thani Imm office

 

In 2021 all I needed was my 12 month KBank statement and letter to show 65K per month

In 2022 I needed that plus my Wise receipts showing the transfers.

In Dec 2023 they wanted to see where the AUD was coming from to transfer through Wise eg. Pension, Work payment notification (shlt I'm 75!!!!) etc. None of the above, I had to prove to em I was a self funded retiree so using my phone I produced a recent ASX dividend showing a payment then the deposit in my bank, then show em the AUD transfer to wise.

 

They wanted me to transfer this lot to their printer using "Line". I told them "NO WAY" their security sucked! I did print the *.PDF of the dividend payment when TAX was mentioned. The print out did show the "Franking Credit" and I explained to them THAT IS THE TAX.

 

The services of "Miss Dodgy Visa - Udon" is looking better every year.

[EVENKEEL]

57 minutes ago, bdenner said:

OK maybe I should have written "the foreign income scrutiny has started"

Udon Thani Imm office

 

In 2021 all I needed was my 12 month KBank statement and letter to show 65K per month

In 2022 I needed that plus my Wise receipts showing the transfers.

In Dec 2023 they wanted to see where the AUD was coming from to transfer through Wise eg. Pension, Work payment notification (shlt I'm 75!!!!) etc. None of the above, I had to prove to em I was a self funded retiree so using my phone I produced a recent ASX dividend showing a payment then the deposit in my bank, then show em the AUD transfer to wise.

 

They wanted me to transfer this lot to their printer using "Line". I told them "NO WAY" their security sucked! I did print the *.PDF of the dividend payment when TAX was mentioned. The print out did show the "Franking Credit" and I explained to them THAT IS THE TAX.

 

The services of "Miss Dodgy Visa - Udon" is looking better every year.

The services of "Miss Dodgy Visa - Udon" is looking better every year.

 

Very true, I use the 65K/mo also. To many hoops and I'll do the same. 

[beammeup]

What if its from savings, and cant prove tax was paid? No visa? FFS!

[Badrabbit]

13 hours ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Uh huh.  News flash - it hasn't "started already".  

 

  Since the new "rule" was scheduled to take effect on 1 Jan 2024, your December extension renewal had no tax implications whatsoever under this new interpretation.

 

  Sounds a lot like a rogue IO trying to earn some extra pocket money.  

What is ASX dividend payments??

I renewed my extension in Oct no problem renewing.

Why is this so complicated my head is spinning with worry, what do I do?

Edited January 10 by Badrabbit

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

What is ASX dividend payments??

I renewed my extension in Oct no problem renewing.

Why is this so complicated my head is spinning with worry, what do I do?

Don't worry..... these people will take ages to get their act together.....

Think of the 300 baht tourist departure tax, the 10,000 baht payment to locals and other things dying on the vine. Even the cannabis legalization situation is a confused mess now!

[Badrabbit]

Just now, jacko45k said:

Don't worry..... these people will take ages to get their act together.....

Think of the 300 baht tourist departure tax, the 10,000 baht payment to locals and other things dying on the vine. Even the cannabis legalization situation is a confused mess now!

Reading the comments in this thread it's hard to imagine "don't worry" I'm not well and getting worse everytime I read something about staying in Thailand, I went to my tax office, he said "if you pay tax in your own country you don't have to pay tax here" I left even more worried!

[jacko45k]

26 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

Reading the comments in this thread it's hard to imagine "don't worry" I'm not well and getting worse everytime I read something about staying in Thailand, I went to my tax office, he said "if you pay tax in your own country you don't have to pay tax here" I left even more worried!

Your situation sounds similar to mine, and I just forwarded  money to my Thai account.....    ( best rate for a while), I am looking out of the window and no tax collector yet! 

No point making yourself ill with worry......

Edited January 10 by jacko45k

[EVENKEEL]

36 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Don't worry..... these people will take ages to get their act together.....

Think of the 300 baht tourist departure tax, the 10,000 baht payment to locals and other things dying on the vine. Even the cannabis legalization situation is a confused mess now!

Our very own Commander here has 636 posts so far. He's loving this.

[bdenner]

56 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

What is ASX dividend payments??

I renewed my extension in Oct no problem renewing.

Why is this so complicated my head is spinning with worry, what do I do?

ASX = Australian Stock Exchange.

I have a portfolio of "Blue Chip" shares each of which which pay a twice annual dividend. A *.pdf statement is available to me with each payment.

 

As I said on page one:- "no need to get your knickers in a twist"

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Our very own Commander here has 636 posts so far. He's loving this.

I will be beyond ecstatic if I could hand this work over to anyone who wants to move it forward from here, subject to the moderators agreement....I would do that in an instant. I've put in a couple of 12 hour days on this plus I've been trying to both steer and participate the debate, whilst fending of smart alleky trolls and idiots along with daily abuse from various people, some repeatedly. If you think I'm loving this, you are one screwed up individual! I'm doing this because I wanted to shut down a bilious 200+ page thread that was causing a lot of older people who want information, a lot of stress, because they couldn't get answers. Those people were sending me PM's directly to get their answers so I knew I had to do something. I also figured if I didn't do it, nobody else would and having started, I need to see it through because that's my make up.

 

Are you getting the picture now!

[Badrabbit]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I will be beyond ecstatic if I could hand this work over to anyone who wants to move it forward from here, subject to the moderators agreement....I would do that in an instant. I've put in a couple of 12 hour days on this plus I've been trying to both steer and participate the debate, whilst fending of smart alleky trolls and idiots along with daily abuse from various people, some repeatedly. If you think I'm loving this, you are one screwed up individual! I'm doing this because I wanted to shut down a bilious 200+ page thread that was causing a lot of older people who want information, a lot of stress, because they couldn't get answers. Those people were sending me PM's directly to get their answers so I knew I had to do something. I also figured if I didn't do it, nobody else would and having started, I need to see it through because that's my make up.

 

Are you getting the picture now!

You are one of the good ones on here mate.

[EVENKEEL]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I will be beyond ecstatic if I could hand this work over to anyone who wants to move it forward from here, subject to the moderators agreement....I would do that in an instant. I've put in a couple of 12 hour days on this plus I've been trying to both steer and participate the debate, whilst fending of smart alleky trolls and idiots along with daily abuse from various people, some repeatedly. If you think I'm loving this, you are one screwed up individual! I'm doing this because I wanted to shut down a bilious 200+ page thread that was causing a lot of older people who want information, a lot of stress, because they couldn't get answers. Those people were sending me PM's directly to get their answers so I knew I had to do something. I also figured if I didn't do it, nobody else would and having started, I need to see it through because that's my make up.

 

Are you getting the picture now!

This a forum of mostly older people and from what little I read you seem to be instigating fear in many for something that probably won't effect anyone.

 

Are you bound by some contract to keep posting, i think not. So please stop playing the savior of mankind.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

This a forum of mostly older people and from what little I read you seem to be instigating fear in many for something that probably won't effect anyone.

 

Are you bound by some contract to keep posting, i think not. So please stop playing the savior of mankind.

I will be delighted to do so, all anyone had to do was ask. Goodbye.

[The Cyclist]

On 1/8/2024 at 11:40 AM, Mike Lister said:

check you posts every day or so to see if you have said anything that needs correcting this is because you are on my ignore list for being argumentative

 

Well, here is another very pertinent argument for you.

 

Before you climbed up that very high pedestal and took the time and effort to compile your very lengthy tax guide.

 

Did you read, digest and incorporate into your tax guide, any of the following:-

 

* OECD rules and regulations concerning CRS

 

* OECD Compliance procedures concerning CRS

 

* Any additional measures applicable to Thailand as an emerging economy.

 

Not an exhaustive list by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I think it might be one of the reasons why no further edicts have been issued by the RD. They and the experts are still pouring over the volumes of paperwork and trying to make sense of it.

[Mike Lister]

30 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

This a forum of mostly older people and from what little I read you seem to be instigating fear in many for something that probably won't effect anyone.

 

Are you bound by some contract to keep posting, i think not. So please stop playing the savior of mankind.

Be a good chap and finish this for everyone, thanks.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316348-a-simple guide-to-personal-income-tax-in-thailand/

[TheAppletons]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Well, here is another very pertinent argument for you.

 

Before you climbed up that very high pedestal and took the time and effort to compile your very lengthy tax guide.

 

Did you read, digest and incorporate into your tax guide, any of the following:-

 

* OECD rules and regulations concerning CRS

 

* OECD Compliance procedures concerning CRS

 

* Any additional measures applicable to Thailand as an emerging economy.

 

Not an exhaustive list by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I think it might be one of the reasons why no further edicts have been issued by the RD. They and the experts are still pouring over the volumes of paperwork and trying to make sense of it.

 

  While acknowledging that you and the other poster have some bit of animosity between you, none of the OECD/CRS procedures is particularly relevant to the average individual attempting to navigate Thailand-specific tax rules.  

 

  

Edited January 10 by TheAppletons

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  While acknowledging that you and the other poster have some bit of animosity between you, none of the OECD/CRS procedures is particularly relevant to the average individual attempting to navigate Thailand-specific tax rules.  

 

  

 

I think we can ( politely )agree  to disagree on that one

 

I believe it will, especially for international money transfers.

[MartinL]

2 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

... I went to my tax office, he said "if you pay tax in your own country you don't have to pay tax here" I left even more worried!

 

I did the same years ago with the same answer so that RD advice has guided my attitude to Thai income tax ever since. 

 

Elsewhere in one of these threads, someone has (provided links that - sorry, my mistake; no links, just a statement) said that RD can look into past tax affairs going back 10 years.

 

I wonder whether being told "if you pay tax in your own country you don't have to pay tax here" by an RD office in the past - with no proof other than your insistence that it happened - would cover you if investigated. 

 

Never mind. If it happens, it happens. Too late to worry about things in the past. 

Edited January 10 by MartinL

[bugger bognor]

Let me offer one very simple solution for the vast majority of expats who seem to be <deleted>ting themselves mainly USA citizens probably democrats! if your so worried instead of debating and waiting for more info to come out IE FACTS ENFORCEMENT ETC  here's a legit way to cover yourself for the majority of us if your over 55. take a trip to Cambodia on arrival get the ordinary visa 35dollars go to any travel agent and get a 3 month retirement Visa takes about 3 weeks when I last did this only 20 months back! When you have your visa open a ABA account very easy to do transfer funds to there from buissines private pension or whatever you want to keep off the radar, order Thai BAHT from the Cambodian bank as it's an adjoining country to Thailand the legal amount you come into Thailand without declaring it is five hundred thousand BAHT in cash . as a bonus those who have stupidly married in Thailand or are hooked up to a controlling Thai gf it's a great excuse to have some fun in Phnom pen 

Quote

 

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

2 hours ago, TheAppletons said:

  While acknowledging that you and the other poster have some bit of animosity between you, none of the OECD/CRS procedures is particularly relevant to the average individual attempting to navigate Thailand-specific tax rules.  

 

  

Expand  

 

I think we can ( politely )agree  to disagree on that one

 

I believe it will, especially for international money transfers.

 

Nope. CRS, and FATCA, don't track international money transfers -- they're interested in reporting money earned abroad by citizens of member countries. So, as long as Thailand adheres to the bizarre income reporting proviso -- "only if remitted," then reports of income earned abroad, by Thai tax residents, ain't worth anything. And that's why I think the remitting thingy will go away, in the interest of a lot more revenue collection, due to it being much easier to identify foreign source income -- and how it shakes out against one's DTA. Of course, the Thai fat cats, with a lot to lose, may have something to say about this....

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

This a forum of mostly older people and from what little I read you seem to be instigating fear in many for something that probably won't effect anyone.

 

Are you bound by some contract to keep posting, i think not. So please stop playing the savior of mankind.

 

Nonsense, and we're not all old and retired so there's a lot of stuff that will apply to a lot of people - not you perhaps but it will to me and it's important.

 

So fack off and leave him alone.

[EVENKEEL]

26 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Nonsense, and we're not all old and retired so there's a lot of stuff that will apply to a lot of people - not you perhaps but it will to me and it's important.

 

So fack off and leave him alone.

Sorry if I made him pout, he'll be back. 555

[MistyBlue]

3 hours ago, MartinL said:

Elsewhere in one of these threads, someone has (provided links that - sorry, my mistake; no links, just a statement) said that RD can look into past tax affairs going back 10 years.

 

I came across some information on this matter after researching another topic.  It's covered in PWCs 2022-23 tax booklet on page 15.  Link here:  https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-2022-23-booklet.pdf

 

I also found a lot of other useful information in the booklet, so hope they produce an updated one with the new interpretation for 2024 at some point.

[EVENKEEL]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I will be delighted to do so, all anyone had to do was ask. Goodbye.

Bye bye, see you, wouldn't wanna be you

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

Nope. CRS, and FATCA, don't track international money transfers

 

No idea why you quoted me and then came out with the above.

 

I never said that CrS or FATCA track international money transfers.

 

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

-- they're interested in reporting money earned abroad by citizens of member countries.

What they ( OECD ) are interested in is ensuring that people are not avoiding tax.

 

Which is why Thailand is  updating the Tax filing form in line with the changes happening from the 01 Jan 2024, which is, to the best of my recollection all to do with the implimentation of CRS.

 

Quote

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

Would it not be prudent to await confirmation of everything that is included in this amendment before making bold statements ?

 

Just because foreign tax credit claim is mentioned does not mean that will be the only thing that will be added on the amendment.

 

No idea how Thailand can claim it is complying with the rules of CRS if they are not checking ( at least once ) that the income remitted is tax paid at source, exempt from tax by being below certain thresholds / covered by a DTA.

[Mike Teavee]

7 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

I think it might be one of the reasons why no further edicts have been issued by the RD. They and the experts are still pouring over the volumes of paperwork and trying to make sense of it.

As I posted previously I believe that the RD hasn't issued any further edicts because the only thing that has changed is the fact that income earned in previous years is now subject to tax assessment if it is brought into Thailand in future years & they've explained that.

 

Somebody earlier used the analogy of "Getting on a Football Pitch & being Told the Rules after Kick-off" That's not right... A better analogy would be you "Earn" a Yellow Card (Income) in one Game & in any future games the referee tells you that if you bring that card into the game (Remit that income into Thailand) then it will count... Instead of the old rule of it not counting. 

 

The referee doesn't need to explain the existing rules of football to you as they haven't changed & they expect you to understand those already.  

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10 by Mike Teavee

[The Cyclist]

52 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

As I posted previously I believe that the RD hasn't issued any further edicts because the only thing that has changed is the fact that income earned in previous years is now subject to tax assessment if it is brought into Thailand in future years & they've explained that.

 

Then why would the experts post something like this ?
 

Quote

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

I have taken the steps to ensure that it will not affect me, apart from at worse, possibly having to get a TIN and possibly filing a tax return for no monies payable to the RD.

 

So personally I coundn't care less what they come out with. I am just not convinced that we have anywhere near the full picture yet.

 

That is not a fact and only my opinion, others are free to believe and do whatever they feel is benificial to their particular circumstances.

[JimGant]

I believe it will, especially for international money transfers.

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

No idea why you quoted me and then came out with the above.

 

I never said that CrS or FATCA track international money transfers.

 

 

You implied that CRS data was now going to allow determination of foreign income earned by Thai tax residents. That's nice --except because of Thailand's remittance qualification, and because CRS -- and FATCA -- reporting doesn't include remittance information, that ain't going to happen.

 

Here's a quote from you: "I believe it [CRS] will, especially for international money transfers." My point: international money transfers aren't a data element of CRS reporting.