Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jerrymahoney]

7 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Also it doesn't seem to be a problem to the RD that there is no place to submit foreign tax credits on the tax return forms. Presumably you have to write them (in Thai) and make your case for the deduction.  That would preclude online filing. What a PITA.

It is also important to mention the taxpayer’s burden in providing proof of foreign tax credit. Where Thai domestic law is still silent about a foreign tax credit available for individual taxpayers under this circumstance, a provision under double tax treaties could provide relief from any double tax arising. However, the conditions, methodologies, and documents supporting the claim are still unclear.

 

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

(my italics)

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

[jacko45k]

20 hours ago, redwood1 said:

20K ?...........I was thinking more like a 500 baht fine....

Perhaps a substantial amount that can be refunded if a tax paid certificate could be produced later...maybe, 

[Mike Lister]

21 hours ago, JimTripper said:

Fine at the airport when leaving from not doing tax returns?

 

Nobody would know the exact tax amount, but I could see a flat fine similar to an overstay fine. Say 20k baht and you are stamped out.

Nah, it'll never happen, not with income tax because the amounts involved have the potential to be very large.

[SHA 2 BKK]

7 hours ago, K2938 said:

While the lack of details on the precise working of the remittance tax is deplorable, I do not think we can also blame the Thai Revenue Department for not accepting or providing tax returns in English.  I do not think there is any Western non-English speaking country either which would allow tax returns in any language apart from its official one.

In Australia you can file and research taxes in Thai and many other languages.  But hey, “we ain’t in Kansas anymore Toto”. 
 

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[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

This doesn't answer my question: will it be assessed as her income (ok for me), or as mine (not ok, 20% more)?

For a definitive answer go ask the Thai RD because Thai tax law/rules are all over the place. If you ask a Thai tax lawyer, they will say 'depends but we will lodge a tax return for you' - and every year in the future. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

I would have thought it would be far more sensible to await further clarification from the RD before getting too excited about what they might, or might not do.

 

I might get hit on the head tomorrow by a stray golf ball and killed, should I cancel the round of golf ?

 

Or perhaps get smashed into by a lunatic driver on the way to the golf course, perhaps I should just stay and bed and ruin my life by worrying about things that might, or might not happen.

I always wear a helmet and gloves and shows when riding a bike in Thailand.  If you dont want to know what the new Thai Govt law/rules are regarding what is an acceptable helmet, then that is your choice, but dont preach to me and others here about how we should live our life.

I was watching a video yesterday from an online lawyer, and he said that it would be wise for everybody to be aware of how these coming changes might be going to affect them. He warned that even Al Capone found out the hard way that you dont mess with the Tax Dept - and ignorance of the law/rules is no defence if you are nailed by a Tax Dept.  But in the end it is up to you.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 hours ago, K2938 said:

While the lack of details on the precise working of the remittance tax is deplorable, I do not think we can also blame the Thai Revenue Department for not accepting or providing tax returns in English.  I do not think there is any Western non-English speaking country either which would allow tax returns in any language apart from its official one.

Yes you can lodge a simple tax return in English online. However, when there is DTA issues involved, no one I know of has found an English form for lodgement in the Thai RD website/s.  But you must lodge any appeal aginst their decision in Thai only.

[moogradod]

22 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I always wear a helmet and gloves and shows when riding a bike in Thailand.  If you dont want to know what the new Thai Govt law/rules are regarding what is an acceptable helmet, then that is your choice, but dont preach to me and others here about how we should live our life.

I was watching a video yesterday from an online lawyer, and he said that it would be wise for everybody to be aware of how these coming changes might be going to affect them. He warned that even Al Capone found out the hard way that you dont mess with the Tax Dept - and ignorance of the law/rules is no defence if you are nailed by a Tax Dept.  But in the end it is up to you.

 

I guess every retiree with pension would like to know. But I have neard rumours that thousands of pensioneers did never file a tax return even if over the threshold, partly to the practice of the RD not to care about. So it seems that all these people would have to file because the practice has changed starting 2024 besides some specialities which nobody knows yet. Do the retirees then have to file for every pension amount received as well in the past ? I suppose that would be as well a nightmare for the RD. And then how to proceed in this case ? There seems two be two fractions that believe that asking the RD itself is the best way and some that this should be avoided because of unforeseen circumstances - if not to call that even a stupid behaviour arousing more trouble than necessary and avoidable.

 

Now that you will always be well prepared concerning the latest info on the matter - but what is your proposed way of action ? I could imagine the best would be to hire a really good accountant / lawyer who has long experience with the RD. But where to find such a person in Pattaya ? I think this last question is crucial.

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes you can lodge a simple tax return in English online. However, when there is DTA issues involved, no one I know of has found an English form for lodgement in the Thai RD website/s.  But you must lodge any appeal aginst their decision in Thai only.

Have you successfully filed a PND 90/91 in English?  I don't believe it's possible, even if that is claimed on the RD website. I have filed online for many years and never saw the option to file in English. In the past they had an option to translated pages, which sometimes sort of worked, but not for filing.

[Dogmatix]

12 hours ago, K2938 said:

While the lack of details on the precise working of the remittance tax is deplorable, I do not think we can also blame the Thai Revenue Department for not accepting or providing tax returns in English.  I do not think there is any Western non-English speaking country either which would allow tax returns in any language apart from its official one.

The US has allowed Spanish tax returns for years and now offers many more languages.  https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-expands-tax-help-into-more-languages-form-1040-offered-in-spanish-and-more-services-information-available-in-multiple-languages

[Dogmatix]

6 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

It is also important to mention the taxpayer’s burden in providing proof of foreign tax credit. Where Thai domestic law is still silent about a foreign tax credit available for individual taxpayers under this circumstance, a provision under double tax treaties could provide relief from any double tax arising. However, the conditions, methodologies, and documents supporting the claim are still unclear.

 

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

(my italics)

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

There has been stony silence about the RD's opinion seeking efforts.  It would not be surprising, if they only provide more clarity in time for filing of tax return forms in 2025 and amending the forms may not happen.  Judging by their pathetic and poorly written Q&A effort, the RD's idea of clarity is different from most other people's anyway. 

 

Since they have started from the position that the finance minister/PM gave them carte blanche to change the Revenue Code unlawfully without going through parliamentary process or even a Royal Decree, there is no particular reason why they should bother with any niceties towards tax payers. The RD DG now feels empowered and we are back under the autocratic Thaksinite rule by edict system, where parliament is bypassed. If taxpayers don't like it, they can become tax non residents or sue in the Central Tax Court but good luck with that.

 

[jerrymahoney]

11 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

If taxpayers don't like it, they can become tax non residents or sue in the Central Tax Court but good luck with that.

I only quoted Mazars. Nothing from me. If I had to pay taxes based upon my 65k+ baht per month and no exemptions other than those already on the books, not the end of the world for me.

 

I may be totally naïve about it, but I have a feeling the economic section of the US Embassy in Bangkok that deals with US-Thai bilateral economic issues, might have something to say if the Thai RD, as per DTA Article 20 treatment of US Social Security, tells US citizens in Thailand: F-U.

Edited October 16, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

There has been stony silence about the RD's opinion seeking efforts.  It would not be surprising, if they only provide more clarity in time for filing of tax return forms in 2025 and amending the forms may not happen.  Judging by their pathetic and poorly written Q&A effort, the RD's idea of clarity is different from most other people's anyway. 

 

Since they have started from the position that the finance minister/PM gave them carte blanche to change the Revenue Code unlawfully without going through parliamentary process or even a Royal Decree, there is no particular reason why they should bother with any niceties towards tax payers. The RD DG now feels empowered and we are back under the autocratic Thaksinite rule by edict system, where parliament is bypassed. If taxpayers don't like it, they can become tax non residents or sue in the Central Tax Court but good luck with that.

 

You remember that old cartoon showing a diagram of what the customer asked for, what was designed, what was constructed and what was delivered? This is going to be very similar, the end product in 15 months time, isn't going to look anything like we think it might today.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

I only quoted Mazars. Nothing from me. If I had to pay taxes based upon my 65k+ baht per month and no exemptions other than those already on the books, not the end of the world for me.

 

I may be totally naïve about it, but I have a feeling the economic section of the US Embassy in Bangkok that deals with US-Thai bilateral economic issues, might have something to say if the Thai RD, as per DTA Article 20 treatment of US Social Security, tells US citizens in Thailand: F-U.

Whilst the British embassy spokesperson will issue a statement saying, we continue to support British subjects overseas in their hour of need. 

[Dogmatix]

7 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

I only quoted Mazars. Nothing from me. If I had to pay taxes based upon my 65k+ baht per month and no exemptions other than those already on the books, not the end of the world for me.

 

I may be totally naïve about it, but I have a feeling the economic section of the US Embassy in Bangkok that deals with US-Thai bilateral economic issues, might have something to say if the Thai RD, as per DTA Article 20 treatment of US Social Security, tells US citizens in Thailand: F-U.

Not blaming you. Just the dictatorial shoot from the hip style of the new government. 

 

I think it is clear that US SS will not be taxed.  No need to worry about that but other nationalities have no similar protection.  

[jerrymahoney]

2 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Not blaming you. Just the dictatorial shoot from the hip style of the new government. 

 

I think it is clear that US SS will not be taxed.  No need to worry about that but other nationalities have no similar protection.  

OK -- but just a note to my post above:

 

"The Economic Section monitors economic, financial, energy, trade, investment, and labor trends in Thailand. The team presents U.S. views on bilateral and multilateral economic issues to the Thai government and the public."

 

https://th.usembassy.gov/embassy-consulate/bangkok/sections-offices/economic-section/

 

 

 

 

[likerdup1]

I would like to know exactly "HOW" they propose to get the money. Automatic deductions from Bank Accounts? This would really be a deal breaker depending on the "tax" hit. How much do the propose to take. If I make bank transfers / wire transfers and get taxed on the money I'm gonna seriously think about other countries.. This is just too over the top.. especially if the tax hit is significant.

[redwood1]

2 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

I would like to know exactly "HOW" they propose to get the money. Automatic deductions from Bank Accounts? This would really be a deal breaker depending on the "tax" hit. How much do the propose to take. If I make bank transfers / wire transfers and get taxed on the money I'm gonna seriously think about other countries.. This is just too over the top.. especially if the tax hit is significant.

 

Dirty farangs need to not think to mutt and pay up.....We are going to give farangs errrr well,, nothing... for paying up.......And dont ask us what its for or you will have to pay more......lol

[samtam]

On 10/13/2023 at 3:34 PM, KannikaP said:

Read my post again please.

This one?.....

On 10/12/2023 at 2:41 PM, KannikaP said:

Just got back, with a Tax ID, same number as on my Pink Card. with assurance that, in my case, transferring 40k per month = 480k per annum, after 190k + 60k + 150k all at 0%, I shall have to pay Bht4000 for the year. There was some mention of 100k being deductible for expenses. As we are not married, I cannot claim 60k for my Mrs, but possibly some for the school fees I pay for my Mrs's son, he will let me know.

Where the money comes from, pension, interest, sister's immoral earnings, is of no matter. It is simply how much is/will be transferred from UK to Thailand in the specific tax year. 

As I am only getting UK State Pension @ £170 per week = £8840 and a small one from Norway, my total UK income is £10400, below the Tax Free Allowance, so no tax due in UK either. I am happy with this.

 

[scorecard]

On 9/18/2023 at 9:57 AM, connda said:

Eventually someone is going to write, "Does that mean farang's pension income too."

Short answer would probably be "No," at least for those countries with bilateral tax agreements with Thailand.  If you're paying income tax in your home countries, then Thailand has no claim to tax the income twice.

Sure but keep in mind that in some countriesold age pensions, permnent war disability compensation allowance are, by specific laws, exempt from taxation. (E.g. Australia.)

 

So where there is a 'double tax agreement' across 2 countries (cannot be taxed twice for same parcel of funds) how does that situation affect tax in the country where the funds are untimately received? 

[jerrymahoney]

12 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

And dont ask us what its for or you will have to pay more.....

Taxman: There's one for you, nineteen for me ...

 

In his 1969 anti-tax song (Taxman), Harrison was facing a marginal tax rate of 95%! In disbelief, he and fellow Beatles penned one of the greatest anti-tax songs.

 

https://russellinvestments.com/us/blog/taxman-theres-one-for-you-nineteen-for-me

 

 

 

[randstr21]

16 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Here's Thailand tax calculator, a salary of 2 mill per year attracts tax at 16%

 

https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

 

A person over aged 65 years would see an even lower rate because they are allowed a further 190k deduction.

Based on the calculation of the website, anyone can technically bring in 310k baht on any particular year tax free? 

 

[Mike Lister]

21 minutes ago, randstr21 said:

Based on the calculation of the website, anyone can technically bring in 310k baht on any particular year tax free? 

 

Er, not really.

 

You cannot claim a deduction unless you file a tax return, you can't just say I would be allowed this deduction so there's no tax to pay hence I wont file.

 

Anyone who has assessible income over 60k Baht per year must file.

 

.

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I was watching a video yesterday from an online lawyer, and he said that it would be wise for everybody to be aware of how these coming changes might be going to affect them. He warned that even Al Capone found out the hard way that you dont mess with the Tax Dept - and ignorance of the law/rules is no defence if you are nailed by a Tax Dept.  But in the end it is up to you.

Apples and oranges.

The online lawyer just forgot that Thailand is not the West, Japan or Singapore.

Law enforcement is way behind and corruption way higher.

 

Having living in several countries of different cultures, the only sound advice is: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

 

What are the huge majority of Thais doing? They don't declare nor pay tax as they should do.

 

Sure it's better to be aware of the law/rules, that doesn't mean we need to change anything until real actions consistently and sustainably happen.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

Conversely, seeking tax advice from internet tax lawyers who make their living from selling tax advice, probably isn't the wisest move, even less wise perhaps than seeking advice on public forums!

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, likerdup1 said:

I would like to know exactly "HOW" they propose to get the money. Automatic deductions from Bank Accounts? This would really be a deal breaker depending on the "tax" hit. How much do the propose to take. If I make bank transfers / wire transfers and get taxed on the money I'm gonna seriously think about other countries.. This is just too over the top.. especially if the tax hit is significant.

It will work the same way it does now. Tax is withheld from salaries and all other assessable income has to be declared by the taxpayer on a PND91 form, i.e. self assessment. You pay the tax you have self assessed immediately after filing your tax return. They will ask for documents supporting any income declared or deductions claimed that are not automatically notified to them. They may dispute your self assessment and ask you to pay more.

 

They will have access to information about remittances and the inspector teams check things at random but have a long backlog.  I was summoned for an audit for my company going back to 2016 in 2021. So, if something looks not right in your 2024 tax return, you could be audited in 2029 or later. That means the interest you have to pay on the back taxes and penalties will be greater. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

Is it possible to get tax certificates from HMRC on tax paid in the UK for tax credits?  When I rented out a house in the UK and didn't yet have the overseas landlord exemption from withholding tax on rent, I had to push the agent to get tax certificates for the amount of tax they had withheld to give to the accountant who did my UK tax return.  It was not a hard copy document with stamps and signatures like Thai government departments like.  it was just a electronic certificate that could be forged by anyone.  I have no idea if similar certificates can be obtain for income tax payments and, if so, would the RD accept them, if not stamped and signed in hard copy.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Dogmatix said:

Is it possible to get tax certificates from HMRC on tax paid in the UK for tax credits?  When I rented out a house in the UK and didn't yet have the overseas landlord exemption from withholding tax on rent, I had to push the agent to get tax certificates for the amount of tax they had withheld to give to the accountant who did my UK tax return.  It was not a hard copy document with stamps and signatures like Thai government departments like.  it was just a electronic certificate that could be forged by anyone.  I have no idea if similar certificates can be obtain for income tax payments and, if so, would the RD accept them, if not stamped and signed in hard copy.

....and signed by the Head of HMRC, in black ink, no photocopies allowed.

[The Cyclist]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

but dont preach to me

The only people who are preaching are the doom - Mongers.

 

Assessable income, as per the new rules starting on 01 Jan 2024 appear to be

 

* Earnings from occupation

 

* Earnings from Business,

 

* Wealth located abroad 

 

Remitted to Thailand.

 

Not a single mention of DTA's that cover other sources of income.

 

The doom-mongers have managed to extrapolate the above into immigration, fines at the airport and all manner of crap.

 

Assess the facts - Formulate a plan - Enact the plan.

 

There is no planning to be done ( as yet ) on the crap that has came out of the initial RD order or the piles of horse manure spouted by various doom - mongers

 

Jesus H Christ, some people need to get a grip of their Y - Fronts.

 

 

 

[samtam]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Er, not really.

 

You cannot claim a deduction unless you file a tax return, you can't just say I would be allowed this deduction so there's no tax to pay hence I wont file.

 

Anyone who has assessible income over 60k Baht per year must file.

 

.

Except 90% who fall into this category, (say a maid who earns THB12,000 per month, or THB144,000 pa) does not pay a satang, because she gets it in cash.