18 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Can I play?????

 

 

 

http://thailawforum.com/articles/taxleeds.html

 

Pensions, Social Security Payments, Annuities, Alimony and Child Support

Article 20 covers four types of payments which share the trait that they are typically paid or received by individuals as “personal” items. Pensions, social security payments, annuities, alimony and child support payments paid to the resident of a contracting state shall be taxable only in the state where they arise.⁽³⁹⁾

I'm not sure what your purpose is in posting that extract from the US/Thai DTA, we are discussing I believe, the UK/Thai DTA. All DTA's are different. They are negotiated using the Model DTA as a starting point, thereafter, the two parties at the table negotiate the things they want, until it is capable of being agreed and signed. 

23 minutes ago, BenStark said:

 

I asked the same question to my pension fund, and got an answer that doesn't make me any wiser.

 

They told me, tax is usually paid in the country you are a resident.

 

So I am resident in Thailand, but my pension get paid in a bank account in my home country, and will not be remitted to Thailand for the foreseeable future, in fact I doubt I have a need to transfer money for the next 20 years.

 

So where do I pay taxes?

Funds from your pension may be liable for assessment for Thai tax purposes when you bring such  funds ,exceeding thresholds , to Thailand 

6 minutes ago, norbra said:

Funds from your pension may be liable for assessment for Thai tax purposes when you bring such  funds ,exceeding thresholds , to Thailand 

 

But as I said, I will NOT bring any funds to Thailand

15 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

bove/Below is as told to you many times, persist in making your false and partial claims/quotes and face a warning.

 

Is that aimed at me ?

 

You can quote Section 41 as many times as you like. It does not change the  fact that Domestic Tax Policy and International Agreements are 2 different things.

 

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

'm not sure what your purpose is in posting that extract from the US/Thai DTA, we are discussing I believe, the UK/Thai DTA

 

Glad you posted the above.

 

For UK pensioners, who are thai tax residents, what takes precedent, the Thai Revenue code or an International agreement known as the UK - Thai DTA.

1 minute ago, BenStark said:

 

But as I said, I will NOT bring any funds to Thailand

Then your existing tax requirements are unchanged.

Just now, norbra said:

Then your existing tax requirements are unchanged.

 

Try to read my post again.

30 minutes ago, BenStark said:

They told me, tax is usually paid in the country you are a resident.

 

So I am resident in Thailand, but my pension get paid in a bank account in my home country and will not be remitted to Thailand

 

 

So where do i pay tax on my pension

 

1 minute ago, BenStark said:

So where do i pay tax on my pension

 

It depends on what Country your pension is being paid.

 

Some pensions are paid with tax deducted, some are not. Some are even paid that are tax exempt.

 

If no tax is deducted at source, and it is being paid into a bank account in your home Country, your home Countries tax rules / laws will apply.

 

Those will be the rules that you need to check and comply with.

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not sure what your purpose is in posting that extract from the US/Thai DTA, we are discussing I believe, the UK/Thai DTA. All DTA's are different. They are negotiated using the Model DTA as a starting point, thereafter, the two parties at the table negotiate the things they want, until it is capable of being agreed and signed. 

In that case you will need to post a different thread country by country. If you truly want to help that would be the way.  So, I'll take my US ball and go home.

7 minutes ago, BenStark said:

 

Try to read my post again.

 

 

So where do i pay tax on my pension

 

My experience is that tax is due in the country where the income arises, this is true of both my UK and US pensions.

43 minutes ago, BenStark said:

 

Try to read my post again.

 

 

So where do i pay tax on my pension

 

You can pay to me if you like,seriously you do not have to pay tax to Thai revenue dept if you do not bring funds to Thailand.

If your home country  assesses your pension as taxable,and you are already paying tax to them,then do nothing.

If your pension is below assessable threshold in your home country then do nothing.

Since I am not aware of your circumstances the above is for general info only

Everything that is written in the Thai RD Tax Code is written specifically for salary earners and recipients of income in Thailand, who are tax residents.  It has been and still is my belief that unless a person has to pay income taxes, then they do not have to lodge a tax return in Thailand.  The vast majority of Thai citrizens do not lodge tax returns - a google search indicates that only 6-9 million people lodge a tax return out of a population of over 50 million over the age of 18.  Unlike other countries, the Thai RD does not want everyone to lodge a tax return.

 

The application of everytghing in the Thai RD Revenue Code is not automatic, as some people think - otherwise every single person leaving Thailand would be fined 1000 Baht for not getting a tax clearance.  When it comes to application of the Code, it is not automatic that it will be against all money received/earned overseas by Expats and remitted into Thailand. DTAs have a big impact on those forms of income, as does the application of the Thai RD Tax Code in each and every single situation (and as directed by the Thai Govt). So does the application of the tax laws in Thailand against Expats (which have not been tested in a Court - yet).  No part of this 'new rule' ramifications have been 'tested' in a legal manner (Court), and the Thai RD often loses Court challenges. Depending on how they implement this new rule change, they are going to get a lot of new 'challenges' by Thai citizens for changing a system used for 30 years, with 3 months notice.

 

I am not keen to lodge a tax return in Thailand - ever.  I do not believe Thailand has the legal or moral right to force retired or married Expats to do so - unless they are using their Visas to avoid taxes overseas, or are earning money in Thailand.  That viewpoint is based upon how Thailand legally treats retired/married Expats.  Legally and technically, all Expats staying in Thailand long term are doing so as a tourist - we are not here as an immigrant - the 90 day reporting and annual renewals is due to the Visa being an extended tourist Visa - that is why we have the same 'legal rights' as a tourist. Thailand does not and cannot legally tax tourists, unless they are earning income while they are in Thailand.  There are Visas that actually give legal rights (such as the LTR), but the standard Visa that most Expats used when entering Thailand, is an extended tourist Visa - we are all tourists (visitors).  But I am not going to take that legal 'argument' further and get it tested in the Thai RD Tribunal or Court - only because that would be extremely expensive.

 

I will also point out that there is SFA arrangements in place at the Thai RD for the lodgement of a tax return in Thailand under which the terms and conditions of a DTA can be utlised. Both the written and online versions of the Thai RD tax lodgement do not cater for that situation.  Therefore, should any Expats wish to lodge a tax return and claim that certain money is not taxable under a DTA with their country, it will be an expensive exercise if we use a tax expert - and it could be very expensive if it goes to a Tribunal.  Plus I am certain that the Thai RD does not have the time and resources available to manage that anyway, should every Expat who receives over 120K Baht from a Pension lodge a tax return claiming they owe no taxes (or a very small amount) due to their interpretation of a DTA. Who the hell at the Thai RD is going to be able to deal with exemptions claimed under the DTAs that Thailand has with over 60 different countries. 

 

Unless I am working/earning income in Thailand (legally available only with a work permit), then I see no legal reason for a retired or married Expat to pay income taxes.  My calculations are that they get zero from myself anyway, but it is the principle of the matter.  When a Thai Court has ruled that Expats can be legally charged a much higher rate in a State hospital, because they are not Thai citizens and have more money, that clearly states we dont have the same legal rights as a Thai citizen. And there are so many other situations (like dual pricing, courts, etc.) where it is very clear what our/my legal status is in Thailand. Implicit in that is that we dont have to pay income taxes 

 

Thailand will find out soon enough that if they start applying income taxes against many Expats (especially their Pensions) then they will not stay living here in Thailand full-time.  Obviously some Expats have no choice and cannot easily move out, but many Expats can and will either just visit Thailand (<180 days), or they will take up other options.  It is no coincidence that the Taxation Minister in Malaysia, who introduced this same new rule in 2022, has stated that they have no intention of taxing the money of retired/married Expats that they bring into the country. As she said that is wrong because that is all 'new money' being broguht into the country, and it would be a massive disincentive for Expats to bring money into Malaysia if it is going to be taxed.  The implementation of this new tax rule is about removing the loophole that allowed citizens and companies to invest their money (earned in their country) overseas and to then bring that money back and not pay taxes on the earnings made on that investment overseas. The associated 'global taxation' system that is now being employed in many countries, is about stopping people living in one country for long periods, just so that they can avoid income taxation in another (and money laundering).

 

13 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Everything that is written in the Thai RD Tax Code is written specifically for salary earners and recipients of income in Thailand, who are tax residents.  It has been and still is my belief that unless a person has to pay income taxes, then they do not have to lodge a tax return in Thailand.  The vast majority of Thai citrizens do not lodge tax returns - a google search indicates that only 6-9 million people lodge a tax return out of a population of over 50 million over the age of 18.  Unlike other countries, the Thai RD does not want everyone to lodge a tax return.

 

The application of everytghing in the Thai RD Revenue Code is not automatic, as some people think - otherwise every single person leaving Thailand would be fined 1000 Baht for not getting a tax clearance.  When it comes to application of the Code, it is not automatic that it will be against all money received/earned overseas by Expats and remitted into Thailand. DTAs have a big impact on those forms of income, as does the application of the Thai RD Tax Code in each and every single situation (and as directed by the Thai Govt). So does the application of the tax laws in Thailand against Expats (which have not been tested in a Court - yet).  No part of this 'new rule' ramifications have been 'tested' in a legal manner (Court), and the Thai RD often loses Court challenges. Depending on how they implement this new rule change, they are going to get a lot of new 'challenges' by Thai citizens for changing a system used for 30 years, with 3 months notice.

 

I am not keen to lodge a tax return in Thailand - ever.  I do not believe Thailand has the legal or moral right to force retired or married Expats to do so - unless they are using their Visas to avoid taxes overseas, or are earning money in Thailand.  That viewpoint is based upon how Thailand legally treats retired/married Expats.  Legally and technically, all Expats staying in Thailand long term are doing so as a tourist - we are not here as an immigrant - the 90 day reporting and annual renewals is due to the Visa being an extended tourist Visa - that is why we have the same 'legal rights' as a tourist. Thailand does not and cannot legally tax tourists, unless they are earning income while they are in Thailand.  There are Visas that actually give legal rights (such as the LTR), but the standard Visa that most Expats used when entering Thailand, is an extended tourist Visa - we are all tourists (visitors).  But I am not going to take that legal 'argument' further and get it tested in the Thai RD Tribunal or Court - only because that would be extremely expensive.

 

I will also point out that there is SFA arrangements in place at the Thai RD for the lodgement of a tax return in Thailand under which the terms and conditions of a DTA can be utlised. Both the written and online versions of the Thai RD tax lodgement do not cater for that situation.  Therefore, should any Expats wish to lodge a tax return and claim that certain money is not taxable under a DTA with their country, it will be an expensive exercise if we use a tax expert - and it could be very expensive if it goes to a Tribunal.  Plus I am certain that the Thai RD does not have the time and resources available to manage that anyway, should every Expat who receives over 120K Baht from a Pension lodge a tax return claiming they owe no taxes (or a very small amount) due to their interpretation of a DTA. Who the hell at the Thai RD is going to be able to deal with exemptions claimed under the DTAs that Thailand has with over 60 different countries. 

 

Unless I am working/earning income in Thailand (legally available only with a work permit), then I see no legal reason for a retired or married Expat to pay income taxes.  My calculations are that they get zero from myself anyway, but it is the principle of the matter.  When a Thai Court has ruled that Expats can be legally charged a much higher rate in a State hospital, because they are not Thai citizens and have more money, that clearly states we dont have the same legal rights as a Thai citizen. And there are so many other situations (like dual pricing, courts, etc.) where it is very clear what our/my legal status is in Thailand. Implicit in that is that we dont have to pay income taxes 

 

Thailand will find out soon enough that if they start applying income taxes against many Expats (especially their Pensions) then they will not stay living here in Thailand full-time.  Obviously some Expats have no choice and cannot easily move out, but many Expats can and will either just visit Thailand (<180 days), or they will take up other options.  It is no coincidence that the Taxation Minister in Malaysia, who introduced this same new rule in 2022, has stated that they have no intention of taxing the money of retired/married Expats that they bring into the country. As she said that is wrong because that is all 'new money' being broguht into the country, and it would be a massive disincentive for Expats to bring money into Malaysia if it is going to be taxed.  The implementation of this new tax rule is about removing the loophole that allowed citizens and companies to invest their money (earned in their country) overseas and to then bring that money back and not pay taxes on the earnings made on that investment overseas. The associated 'global taxation' system that is now being employed in many countries, is about stopping people living in one country for long periods, just so that they can avoid income taxation in another (and money laundering).

 

Everything that is written in the Thai RD Tax Code is written specifically for salary earners and recipients of income in Thailand, who are tax residents. - Untrue, it covers all tax payers, including people who are native Thai's and self employed and also foreigners, hence the reference to foreigners and overseas income.

 

a google search indicates that only 6-9 million people lodge a tax return out of a population of over 50 million over the age of 18. - The workforce is 38 million people, 11% of them file a tax return, 6% pay taxes on that return.

 

No part of this 'new rule' ramifications have been 'tested' in a legal manner (Court) - IF the new rule were overturned, that wouldn't change anything for the large group of expats who rely on the income method and remit 65k per month of their pension every month, in the year it is earned. This exercise to raise awareness is therefore, I think, useful and helpful for many.

 

 The implementation of this new tax rule is about removing the loophole that allowed citizens and companies to invest their money (earned in their country) overseas and to then bring that money back and not pay taxes on the earnings made on that investment overseas. - Agreed.

18 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Because in law, as another poster in another thread so conveniently just posted, "In general, all types of income are assessable unless expressly exempt by law".

 

So, Thai law says that, unless exempted by law, decree, or language in a DTA, it's assessable income. So, what do the Brits say about that private pension that's not mentioned in the DTA? Do they bend over and agree that Thai law allows for their taxation? Or do they say, "Nothing in the DTA gives Thailand taxation rights, either exclusive or primary, so we reserve the right to tax that income." And they do.

 

What does the expat Brit do? If he gets a tax bill from the Brit tax folks, I guess he pays it, as I doubt he'll complain that Thailand says they have primary or exclusive taxation rights. To which the Brit tax folks say, "Where in the DTA does it say that?"

 

Anyway, a big mess without specific language in the DTA. And there's no default position in the absence of specific language, which would be that one country has exclusive taxation rights (and thus the other country has no taxation rights). Or one has primary taxation rights (like we saw recently with Belgium), where the primary country keeps all the tax collection, but issues a credit to the secondary country, who gets to keep any taxes above the issued credit.

 

So, what's a Brit expat with State and private pensions going to do? Maybe, like The Cyclist, visit your local RD office and ask them to sort out this mess. Or, file your Brit tax return, then do a quick assessment on whether or not, should this income be remitted, that you'd be liable for some Thai taxation. If not, kick back, have a beer, and don't worry about filing a Thai tax return.

 

 

2 hours ago, BenStark said:

So where do i pay tax on my pension

Certainly not to Thailand, if not remitted. This, however, may change, if and when they figure out that the remittance gimmick is still costing them lost tax revenues.

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

My experience is that tax is due in the country where the income arises, this is true of both my UK and US pensions.

 

Unless you don't live in that country, then most DTAs have the country of residence with exclusive or primary taxation rights, unless they're gov't pensions. But you knew that....

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

So, what's a Brit expat with State and private pensions going to do? Maybe, like The Cyclist, visit your local RD office and ask them to sort out this mess.

 

I cannot copy and paste for some reason.

 

If someone could do the honours and copy and the paragraph directly below " The role of double tax agreements in Thailand  "

 

No-one can argue with the 1st sentence 

 

" To avoid double taxation and prevent  tax evasion "

 

It is the 2nd sentence that is the absolute killer, and something that mike lister has repeatedly, across various threads stuck his fingers in his ears and gnored and failed to appreciate.

 

"  Moreover, it is important to note that the principles set out in the treaties take precedent over the domestic law of the contracting States "

 

https://thailand.themispartner.com/guides/double-tax-agreements-thailand/

 

In simple laymans terms, regarding UK Pensions, regardless of what the Revenue Code says

 

* These pensions are only taxable in the UK

 

* Pensions that are taxed in the UK should not be taxed again to avoid double taxation.

 

* Any other pension that has not been taxed in the UK. It is up to Thailand if they wish to tax them.

 

And the only way you are going to get an answer on Point 3 is by going to your local RD Office and asking them

 

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Everything that is written in the Thai RD Tax Code is written specifically for salary earners and recipients of income in Thailand, who are tax residents.  It has been and still is my belief that unless a person has to pay income taxes, then they do not have to lodge a tax return in Thailand.  The vast majority of Thai citrizens do not lodge tax returns - a google search indicates that only 6-9 million people lodge a tax return out of a population of over 50 million over the age of 18.  Unlike other countries, the Thai RD does not want everyone to lodge a tax return.

 

The application of everytghing in the Thai RD Revenue Code is not automatic, as some people think - otherwise every single person leaving Thailand would be fined 1000 Baht for not getting a tax clearance.  When it comes to application of the Code, it is not automatic that it will be against all money received/earned overseas by Expats and remitted into Thailand. DTAs have a big impact on those forms of income, as does the application of the Thai RD Tax Code in each and every single situation (and as directed by the Thai Govt). So does the application of the tax laws in Thailand against Expats (which have not been tested in a Court - yet).  No part of this 'new rule' ramifications have been 'tested' in a legal manner (Court), and the Thai RD often loses Court challenges. Depending on how they implement this new rule change, they are going to get a lot of new 'challenges' by Thai citizens for changing a system used for 30 years, with 3 months notice.

 

I am not keen to lodge a tax return in Thailand - ever.  I do not believe Thailand has the legal or moral right to force retired or married Expats to do so - unless they are using their Visas to avoid taxes overseas, or are earning money in Thailand.  That viewpoint is based upon how Thailand legally treats retired/married Expats.  Legally and technically, all Expats staying in Thailand long term are doing so as a tourist - we are not here as an immigrant - the 90 day reporting and annual renewals is due to the Visa being an extended tourist Visa - that is why we have the same 'legal rights' as a tourist. Thailand does not and cannot legally tax tourists, unless they are earning income while they are in Thailand.  There are Visas that actually give legal rights (such as the LTR), but the standard Visa that most Expats used when entering Thailand, is an extended tourist Visa - we are all tourists (visitors).  But I am not going to take that legal 'argument' further and get it tested in the Thai RD Tribunal or Court - only because that would be extremely expensive.

 

I will also point out that there is SFA arrangements in place at the Thai RD for the lodgement of a tax return in Thailand under which the terms and conditions of a DTA can be utlised. Both the written and online versions of the Thai RD tax lodgement do not cater for that situation.  Therefore, should any Expats wish to lodge a tax return and claim that certain money is not taxable under a DTA with their country, it will be an expensive exercise if we use a tax expert - and it could be very expensive if it goes to a Tribunal.  Plus I am certain that the Thai RD does not have the time and resources available to manage that anyway, should every Expat who receives over 120K Baht from a Pension lodge a tax return claiming they owe no taxes (or a very small amount) due to their interpretation of a DTA. Who the hell at the Thai RD is going to be able to deal with exemptions claimed under the DTAs that Thailand has with over 60 different countries. 

 

Unless I am working/earning income in Thailand (legally available only with a work permit), then I see no legal reason for a retired or married Expat to pay income taxes.  My calculations are that they get zero from myself anyway, but it is the principle of the matter.  When a Thai Court has ruled that Expats can be legally charged a much higher rate in a State hospital, because they are not Thai citizens and have more money, that clearly states we dont have the same legal rights as a Thai citizen. And there are so many other situations (like dual pricing, courts, etc.) where it is very clear what our/my legal status is in Thailand. Implicit in that is that we dont have to pay income taxes 

 

Thailand will find out soon enough that if they start applying income taxes against many Expats (especially their Pensions) then they will not stay living here in Thailand full-time.  Obviously some Expats have no choice and cannot easily move out, but many Expats can and will either just visit Thailand (<180 days), or they will take up other options.  It is no coincidence that the Taxation Minister in Malaysia, who introduced this same new rule in 2022, has stated that they have no intention of taxing the money of retired/married Expats that they bring into the country. As she said that is wrong because that is all 'new money' being broguht into the country, and it would be a massive disincentive for Expats to bring money into Malaysia if it is going to be taxed.  The implementation of this new tax rule is about removing the loophole that allowed citizens and companies to invest their money (earned in their country) overseas and to then bring that money back and not pay taxes on the earnings made on that investment overseas. The associated 'global taxation' system that is now being employed in many countries, is about stopping people living in one country for long periods, just so that they can avoid income taxation in another (and money laundering).

 

Thailand can of course tax your worldwide income, if you are a tax resident as the majority of countries do worldwide. The only thing that could stop them would be a DTA but even in most DTAs it is stipulated that the country of (primary) residence aka TH has the right to tax them. I am afraid your legal status (dual pricing, right to vote, free healthcare etc) in TH does not change a thing about the right of taxation. If they will enforce this RD directive in real life is of course a different topic and no one yet knows.

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

Unless you don't live in that country, then most DTAs have the country of residence with exclusive or primary taxation rights, unless they're gov't pensions. But you knew that....

My US SSc is taxable solely in the US whilst my UK State is taxable in the UK, because I have other income that arises there.

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I cannot copy and paste for some reason.

 

If someone could do the honours and copy and the paragraph directly below " The role of double tax agreements in Thailand  "

 

No-one can argue with the 1st sentence 

 

" To avoid double taxation and prevent  tax evasion "

 

It is the 2nd sentence that is the absolute killer, and something that mike lister has repeatedly, across various threads stuck his fingers in his ears and gnored and failed to appreciate.

 

"  Moreover, it is important to note that the principles set out in the treaties take precedent over the domestic law of the contracting States "

 

https://thailand.themispartner.com/guides/double-tax-agreements-thailand/

 

In simple laymans terms, regarding UK Pensions, regardless of what the Revenue Code says

 

* These pensions are only taxable in the UK

 

* Pensions that are taxed in the UK should not be taxed again to avoid double taxation.

 

* Any other pension that has not been taxed in the UK. It is up to Thailand if they wish to tax them.

 

And the only way you are going to get an answer on Point 3 is by going to your local RD Office and asking them

 

I regard your post as deliberate disinformation and further post along the same lines will be treated as such.

 

As poster @JimGant has stated, the UK/Thai DTA is clear regarding government pensions but is silent on private pensions whilst the Thai Revenue Department states that all income is assessable. That means that private, company and potentially state pensions remitted to Thailand are regarded as assessable income that is capable or being taxed here. You know these things, Jim has made it clear as have I. Everyone is aware that DTA rules take precedent over national tax laws, that's always been understood and is why I gave you the earlier link so that you would understand it. Now stop trying to send the discussion round in circles yet again.

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

So, Thai law says that, unless exempted by law, decree, or language in a DTA, it's assessable income. So, what do the Brits say about that private pension that's not mentioned in the DTA? Do they bend over and agree that Thai law allows for their taxation? Or do they say, "Nothing in the DTA gives Thailand taxation rights, either exclusive or primary, so we reserve the right to tax that income." And they do.

 

What does the expat Brit do? If he gets a tax bill from the Brit tax folks, I guess he pays it, as I doubt he'll complain that Thailand says they have primary or exclusive taxation rights. To which the Brit tax folks say, "Where in the DTA does it say that?"

 

Anyway, a big mess without specific language in the DTA. And there's no default position in the absence of specific language, which would be that one country has exclusive taxation rights (and thus the other country has no taxation rights). Or one has primary taxation rights (like we saw recently with Belgium), where the primary country keeps all the tax collection, but issues a credit to the secondary country, who gets to keep any taxes above the issued credit.

 

So, what's a Brit expat with State and private pensions going to do? Maybe, like The Cyclist, visit your local RD office and ask them to sort out this mess. Or, file your Brit tax return, then do a quick assessment on whether or not, should this income be remitted, that you'd be liable for some Thai taxation. If not, kick back, have a beer, and don't worry about filing a Thai tax return.

 

 

I believe there is a default position. If the (non-government) pension arises in the UK, it is taxable in the UK, even if the tax payer is not UK resident for tax purposes. If the tax payer takes advantage of something such as QROPS or similar, the pension can be moved to another country but that is outside of what's being discussed here. 

 

The UK/Thai DTA is silent on the taxation of those pensions but Thai RD law says that all income is assessible. The default position is that if those pension payments are remitted to Thailand, they are assessable income.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

As poster @JimGant has stated, the UK/Thai DTA is clear regarding government pensions but is silent on private pensions

 

Yes, I know what the UK - Thai DTA says, that is why I posted

 

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

* These pensions are only taxable in the UK

 

* Pensions that are taxed in the UK should not be taxed again to avoid double taxation.

 

* Any other pension that has not been taxed in the UK. It is up to Thailand if they wish to tax them.

 

Point 1, Government Pensions. Taxed only in UK

 

Point 2, any other type of pension that is already taxed in the UK. Not taxable in Thailand to prevent Double Taxation

 

Point 3, any additional pensions that are not taxed in the UK, are open to be being taxed in Thailand, should Thailand wish to tax them.

 

Not sure how many people are existing solely on a meagre frozen state pensions or other type of pension that falls  below the UK tax threshold, but I cannot imagine that the numbers would be very high.

 

Which might be another reason why 3 RD Offices have basically said, UK Pensions, no need to file anything. Not worth the time and effort to chase frozen state Pensions for a meagre, if any return.

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

My US SSc is taxable solely in the US whilst my UK State is taxable in the UK, because I have other income that arises there.

I said, "unless they're gov't pensions."

26 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, I know what the UK - Thai DTA says, that is why I posted

 

 

Point 1, Government Pensions. Taxed only in UK

 

Point 2, any other type of pension that is already taxed in the UK. Not taxable in Thailand to prevent Double Taxation

 

Point 3, any additional pensions that are not taxed in the UK, are open to be being taxed in Thailand, should Thailand wish to tax them.

 

Not sure how many people are existing solely on a meagre frozen state pensions or other type of pension that falls  below the UK tax threshold, but I cannot imagine that the numbers would be very high.

 

Which might be another reason why 3 RD Offices have basically said, UK Pensions, no need to file anything. Not worth the time and effort to chase frozen state Pensions for a meagre, if any return.

What you've written in this post is much more acceptable than your previous one which simply said:

 

"In simple laymans terms, regarding UK Pensions, regardless of what the Revenue Code says

 

* These pensions are only taxable in the UK"

 

Thank you for making your views more clear.

 

EDIT TO ADD: We just need one more thing to complete the picture and that is for the Thai RD to agree to the above......thus far it's logical theory that is backed by the DTA and known existing RD rules. 

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I said, "unless they're gov't pensions."

The UK State is not a government pension and the DTA is silent on it also. 

We could do with some examples to show the effect of the tax, both taxed in the UK versus taxed in Thailand (for those pensions that are transportable). Any volunteers, a cpa sort of person would be good. :))

7 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

My take

 

The Revenue Code is written with regards to people who are deriving income in Thailand, through employment, interest dividends, property rental, or any other form of income derived  in Thailand, who are classed as Thai tax residents..

 

International Agreements AKA DTA's are written for people who are Thai Tax Residents, who derive no income in Thailand, but have income from their home Countries, that they then remit to Thailand.

 

Otherwise, none of these threads would exist, DTA's would not exist,  and every Thai Tax Resident would simply fall under the Revenue Code.

Your understanding of the applicability of a DTA is far too narrow.  The stipulations in a DTA are not restricted to those citizens of the foreign country that collect no Thai income.

47 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The default position is that if those pension payments are remitted to Thailand, they are assessable income.

 

Ok. So then does Thailand have exclusive taxation rights -- thus the UK can't tax these private and State pensions? Or does Thailand have primary taxation rights, but the UK can also tax, but has to give a credit for Thai taxes? Or in reverse -- the UK has primary taxation rights? Without any clarity in the DTA, we're in a double taxation quandary. Dunno. Hope it all sorts out for the Brits. But, since Yorktown, I won't lose too much sleep.

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Everything that is written in the Thai RD Tax Code is written specifically for salary earners and recipients of income in Thailand, who are tax residents.  It has been and still is my belief that unless a person has to pay income taxes, then they do not have to lodge a tax return in Thailand.  The vast majority of Thai citrizens do not lodge tax returns - a google search indicates that only 6-9 million people lodge a tax return out of a population of over 50 million over the age of 18.  Unlike other countries, the Thai RD does not want everyone to lodge a tax return.

 

The application of everytghing in the Thai RD Revenue Code is not automatic, as some people think - otherwise every single person leaving Thailand would be fined 1000 Baht for not getting a tax clearance.  When it comes to application of the Code, it is not automatic that it will be against all money received/earned overseas by Expats and remitted into Thailand. DTAs have a big impact on those forms of income, as does the application of the Thai RD Tax Code in each and every single situation (and as directed by the Thai Govt). So does the application of the tax laws in Thailand against Expats (which have not been tested in a Court - yet).  No part of this 'new rule' ramifications have been 'tested' in a legal manner (Court), and the Thai RD often loses Court challenges. Depending on how they implement this new rule change, they are going to get a lot of new 'challenges' by Thai citizens for changing a system used for 30 years, with 3 months notice.

 

I am not keen to lodge a tax return in Thailand - ever.  I do not believe Thailand has the legal or moral right to force retired or married Expats to do so - unless they are using their Visas to avoid taxes overseas, or are earning money in Thailand.  That viewpoint is based upon how Thailand legally treats retired/married Expats.  Legally and technically, all Expats staying in Thailand long term are doing so as a tourist - we are not here as an immigrant - the 90 day reporting and annual renewals is due to the Visa being an extended tourist Visa - that is why we have the same 'legal rights' as a tourist. Thailand does not and cannot legally tax tourists, unless they are earning income while they are in Thailand.  There are Visas that actually give legal rights (such as the LTR), but the standard Visa that most Expats used when entering Thailand, is an extended tourist Visa - we are all tourists (visitors).  But I am not going to take that legal 'argument' further and get it tested in the Thai RD Tribunal or Court - only because that would be extremely expensive.

 

I will also point out that there is SFA arrangements in place at the Thai RD for the lodgement of a tax return in Thailand under which the terms and conditions of a DTA can be utlised. Both the written and online versions of the Thai RD tax lodgement do not cater for that situation.  Therefore, should any Expats wish to lodge a tax return and claim that certain money is not taxable under a DTA with their country, it will be an expensive exercise if we use a tax expert - and it could be very expensive if it goes to a Tribunal.  Plus I am certain that the Thai RD does not have the time and resources available to manage that anyway, should every Expat who receives over 120K Baht from a Pension lodge a tax return claiming they owe no taxes (or a very small amount) due to their interpretation of a DTA. Who the hell at the Thai RD is going to be able to deal with exemptions claimed under the DTAs that Thailand has with over 60 different countries. 

 

Unless I am working/earning income in Thailand (legally available only with a work permit), then I see no legal reason for a retired or married Expat to pay income taxes.  My calculations are that they get zero from myself anyway, but it is the principle of the matter.  When a Thai Court has ruled that Expats can be legally charged a much higher rate in a State hospital, because they are not Thai citizens and have more money, that clearly states we dont have the same legal rights as a Thai citizen. And there are so many other situations (like dual pricing, courts, etc.) where it is very clear what our/my legal status is in Thailand. Implicit in that is that we dont have to pay income taxes 

 

Thailand will find out soon enough that if they start applying income taxes against many Expats (especially their Pensions) then they will not stay living here in Thailand full-time.  Obviously some Expats have no choice and cannot easily move out, but many Expats can and will either just visit Thailand (<180 days), or they will take up other options.  It is no coincidence that the Taxation Minister in Malaysia, who introduced this same new rule in 2022, has stated that they have no intention of taxing the money of retired/married Expats that they bring into the country. As she said that is wrong because that is all 'new money' being broguht into the country, and it would be a massive disincentive for Expats to bring money into Malaysia if it is going to be taxed.  The implementation of this new tax rule is about removing the loophole that allowed citizens and companies to invest their money (earned in their country) overseas and to then bring that money back and not pay taxes on the earnings made on that investment overseas. The associated 'global taxation' system that is now being employed in many countries, is about stopping people living in one country for long periods, just so that they can avoid income taxation in another (and money laundering).

 

 

I think the situation is that the RD requires any tax resident with over 120k in income to file a tax return but it is rather pointless because the tax threshold starts at 150k plus a 60k basic allowance. So it is not enforced. I am not sure what law or regulation requires this but it is to be found on the RD's website without cited any legislation to support it. Thus I don't know, if there is any penalty for not filing a tax return for those who have income over 120k but not enough to pay tax. I don't think so and this regulation seems not to be enforced. AFAIK there are only penalties for not filing tax returns and paying tax on income over the threshold and allowances.

 

Re DTAs I have heard from professional tax advisors that claiming tax credits from corporate income tax under DTAs can be a complex and costly business. The RC doesn't ever specify that DTAs are applicable to PIT but there is a ruling to that effect.  So perhaps it is unsurprising that there is no space on the PND 90/91 forms, as this is unsupported by any section of the RC which is always referred on the forms. 

 

You say the reinterpretation is intended to tax corporate and personal income derived from funds that originated in Thailand. This is not an issue in the case of corporate income tax because companies already have to pay tax on income arising overseas whether it is remitted to Thailand or not. However, most Thai companies do not have income overseas in their own names.  They have income in overseas subsidiaries that is taxable in their country of domicile, while dividends remitted to the Thai parent are taxable in Thailand but subject to DTAs as they usually taxed in the country of origin. There are other cases like Thai companies earning capital gains from investments in businesses overseas that they sell for a profit.  This has always been taxable. Also where tax companies own property overseas.

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

 

Ok. So then does Thailand have exclusive taxation rights -- thus the UK can't tax these private and State pensions? Or does Thailand have primary taxation rights, but the UK can also tax, but has to give a credit for Thai taxes? Or in reverse -- the UK has primary taxation rights? Without any clarity in the DTA, we're in a double taxation quandary. Dunno. Hope it all sorts out for the Brits. But, since Yorktown, I won't lose too much sleep.

Playing devil's advocate could they in fact be taxed twice....

The UK digest of DTa's states that State and personal pensions are excluded in relation to the agreement with Thailand and there is in fact no relief......

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

 

Thailand page 34.

(I have only quoted you as it was easier but understand it is a non issue for you )

40 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Thus I don't know, if there is any penalty for not filing a tax return for those who have income over 120k but not enough to pay tax. I don't think so and this regulation seems not to be enforced. AFAIK there are only penalties for not filing tax returns and paying tax on income over the threshold and allowances.

 

No penalties for not filing if no tax owed. Only if filing late, and taxes are owed. Then, it's a fine equivalent to taxes owed, or twice taxes owed (I forgot what drives the difference).