Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mavideol]

20 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Actually there is a section of the RC that says you are entitled to receive interest from banks with the 15% withholding tax deducted, if you are willing to sign a consent form to allow the bank to automatically report details of your interest received the RD.  If you receive a total of more than 20k in interest from all accounts in a year, you have to declare that in your tax return and they will tax you the 15%.  I have never done that because I only found out about it recently.  I have also never claimed back interest because savings rates have been stuck at a miserable 0.5% forever, despite lending rates being at a 20 year high and it involves going round the banks to get a certificate of tax deducted.  If you own shares on the SET, the dividend tax credit is very useful, however, if you don't have too much other income, and well worth going to the effort to claim. You can get back more tax than was deducted from the dividends but Thai stocks have gone nowhere in about 7 years.

thanks for the feed back, well noted

[4myr]

On the topic of foreign tax credits, anyone can shine a light on these 2 quotes of two consulting firms  I found.

 

My question: what is common practice right now? Or are there different practices in the land?

 

From my first visit at my local tax office in Prachuap, my local tax officer offered me foreign tax credit on paid payroll tax.

While my country's DTA does not mention payroll tax for which a tax credit is permitted. 

 

Yes I understand that my local tax officer is hardly knowledgable of the contents of DTA, But I assume she got some general instruction from higher management, that already paid tax abroad, without any distinction, can be applied as a tax credit.

 

https://www.lorenz-partners.com/taxation-on-foreign-dividend-under-thai-law/

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/foreign-tax-relief-and-tax-treaties

"Foreign taxes cannot be taken as a credit against Thai taxes unless permitted under a double tax treaty (DTT)."

 

 

[Mavideol]

22 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You were told incorrectly, you can reclaim the tax on that interest.

 

If you are unable to get a TIN easily, I suggest you tell the TRD officer that you want to pay tax on property rental income and can they tell you how to do that, I imagine they will be more responsive. Also, you dont say what type of TRD office you applied at, you should make the request at the District Office and if that doesn't work, go to the Regional office.

am aware of that and as I said don't want the burden of filling, small change, Thailand needs money, it's my little contribution  555

[stat]

On 4/23/2024 at 12:51 PM, Lorry said:

IF you really want a TIN - a big if - you can easily get one by applying for a refund of withholding tax (the tax withheld by your Thai bank from the interest of your Thai bank account). 

You have to go to the bank first, they will issue you a document stating how much withholding tax you paid,  then you have to bring this to the RD office.

This can routinely be done for the last 3 years. 

Can you recommend an agency that does that? I am currently not in Thailand nor did I have interest from a thai bank account but I need a tax certificate from TH (TIN also needed for tax certificate). It is my understanding that I can opt to pay voluntarily a token amount and get a tax certificate. Why TH is not willing to issue a tax certificate (without having paid taxes) stating Mr. X has lived for more then 180 days in TH and is therefore a tax resident is beyond me.

[Mavideol]

20 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

They got this the wrong way round. Short term tourists cannot get the refund of the tax withheld because they are unable to get a TIN. Thais and foreigners with TINs can get the tax refunded. There is a space on the tax return form to declare interest income and, if had a TIN already, you could have filed a tax return by yourself and claimed the tax back within consulting any tax masters.  You can also avoid having the tax withheld by signing the consent form described in my above post.

 

The 3 provincial tax masters must have misunderstood that you wanted claim VAT rebates on shopping.

thanks, I did know about it but I don't want the burden of any paper work filling in Thailand, dealing the IMO it's enough for me

[Mavideol]

23 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Have had the TIN for over ten years!

First time

Went  to bank (fixed deposit) get their paperwork

Went to local tax office and they did all the paperwork including TIN

Waited for letter from Tax Office and off to whichever bank it is (starts with K) to open new account with them and deposit the cheque.

Get ATM card (will not cash cheque immediately so got ATM card immediately-no idea if I paid))

 

Now every 2/3 years repeat process, except opening of new account!

 

glad you got it, many things have changed over the past 10 years, at that time anybody could also open a bank account, now almost impossible for an expat to do that, btw I do have a TIN that was given to me 14 years ago, was just commenting on the post as many people keep repeating the same messages and there is no end into it as currently is very difficult to get a TIN, I did visit the 3 tax offices that I mentioned as I have plenty of free time and was curious as to why so many posters keep running in circles with their comments and questions, thus decided to investigate and reported my findings, I do know/understand that other provinces may have different requirements but these 3 told me the same thing

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

glad you got it, many things have changed over the past 10 years, at that time anybody could also open a bank account, now almost impossible for an expat to do that, btw I do have a TIN that was given to me 14 years ago, was just commenting on the post as many people keep repeating the same messages and there is no end into it as currently is very difficult to get a TIN, I did visit the 3 tax offices that I mentioned as I have plenty of free time and was curious as to why so many posters keep running in circles with their comments and questions, thus decided to investigate and reported my findings, I do know/understand that other provinces may have different requirements but these 3 told me the same thing

Here is the Thai Revenue Department Help Line 02 272 8000. If you call them and tell them what you've said here, I'm pretty sure you will get your TIN in no time at all.

[UKresonant]

22 minutes ago, 4myr said:

From my first visit at my local tax office in Prachuap, my local tax officer offered me foreign tax credit on paid payroll tax.

While my country's DTA does not mention payroll tax for which a tax credit is permitted. 

 

Yes I understand that my local tax officer is hardly knowledgable of the contents of DTA, But I assume she got some general instruction from higher management, that already paid tax abroad, without any distinction, can be applied as a tax credit.

 

That is good news perhaps, as the  majority of my pension incomes are issued in the same way as payroll.

 

Was there any stipulation that it must be 100% of such income types to get the credit? ( or proportion of)

Are they quite happy to see one set of payroll with the associated tax deducted in isolation? (Which would be both simple and ideal for me)

 

The UK does not have a specific article for pensions, (except for Government pensions). The TH-UK DTA  does have a clause at 23 (3) that says UK source tax will be allowed as a credit against Thai Tax.

 

 

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, freeworld said:

A taxpayer who is assessed additional tax by an assessment officer
on the grounds that an inaccurate return was filed, or who failed to
file a return, is subject to a penalty. The rate of penalty is 100% for an
inaccurate return and 200% for failure to file a return.

 But if you have no taxable income, and thus owe no tax -- 100% of zero is zero; 200% of zero is zero. Yawn. And that 2000 baht fine for not filing if you have over 120k in assessable income, even tho' you're 380k baht shy of having any taxable income -- is still an unsubstantiated rumor, that really doesn't make any sense when you hold it up to the light.

 

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It looks as though the landscape is changing from, "no need to file because there's no penalty", to, there is a fine for not filing plus not doing so exposes you to back audits for the past decade. 

 

Exposed to back audits for the past decade? How many new agents will be required just to determine which farangs were here for over 180 days, and in which years? 

 

***Moderator Note: personal attack and flame removed***

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 Exposed to back audits for the past decade? 

Another member posted the quote below, if you have proof what is said is incorrect, please post the same.

 

 

"The following from PWC Thailand tax booklet for personal tax.

 

"Penalties and surcharge
A taxpayer who is assessed additional tax by an assessment officer
on the grounds that an inaccurate return was filed, or who failed to
file a return, is subject to a penalty. The rate of penalty is 100% for an
inaccurate return and 200% for failure to file a return. Penalties may
be reduced by 50% if the taxpayer submits a request in writing and
the assessment officer is of the opinion that the taxpayer did not
intend to evade tax and cooperated with the officer during the tax
audit.

Any person who fails to pay or remit tax within the specified time is
liable to pay a surcharge of 1.5% per month, or fraction thereof, of the
amount of tax to be paid or remitted subject to a maximum equal to
the amount of tax to be paid or remitted.

 

Tax investigation and assessment
The Revenue Department is empowered to demand documents and
records for inspection for a period of two years. The period will be
extended to five years if it is found, or there is a reason to believe,
that there was tax evasion, or where a tax audit is conducted for the
purpose of paying a tax refund.
Nevertheless, under the Civil and Commercial Code, the Revenue
Department can assess tax for up to ten years."

 

I think it is this section from the Civil and Commercial Code

Section 448. Statute of Limitations

The claim for damages arising from wrongful act is barred by prescription after one year from the day when the wrongful act and the person bound to make compensation became known to the injured person, or ten years from the day when the wrongful act was committed.

However if the damages are claimed on account of an act punishable under the criminal law for which a longer prescription is provided such longer prescription shall apply.

 

Prescription

Section 193/31. Taxes 10 Years

The period of prescription for claims of the Government for taxes and rates is ten years. As to other claims of the Government relating to obligations, the provisions of this title shall apply".

[Dogmatix]

10 hours ago, paddypower said:

what I am interested in seeing, for the 2023 tax year, is what my tax accountant does with a fairly large amount of dividend income. its taxed on a w/h basis at 10%. and I do understand the rules for gross up to claim a refund (they're somewhat onerous). in prior years it was tax free. anyone else in a similar position - i.e. with a large Thai dividend income?

 

I have done this once manually with a hard copy form which was a monstrous PITA and about half a dozen times online which is relatively simple with all the tax computation done for you. To do online you need to register in the TSD (SET share registry) portal. Once you have done that you will be able to access copies of all your dividend certificates, assuming your Thai broker has registered you properly with them properly from their side (not a given - a couple of my accounts were not registered properly with TSD because they got my name wrong, so there was no match with the TSD data).  Once you get into your account at the TSD portal, there is a place where you are asked to give permission for them to send your dividend data to the RD. 

 

You fill in tax return form PND90 and click on the menu to complete the section for Section 40.4.b (40.4. ข) dividend income.  There will be an option to click on for your dividend data at TSD to be transmitted directed.  Click on it all your dividends will suddenly show like magic in your tax return with the corporate tax rates and you tax credit and tax rebate will be calculated.  There are a few listed companies that refuse to use TSD as their registrar, notable some of the REITs.  For those you have to fill in the data manually.  

 

Your Thai accountant can do all this for you.  They can apply for an online tax account and the TSD account. Mobile numbers and OTPs are needed to set them up.  I don't think TSD sends OTPs after you have set it up.  The RD does but you can changed the phone number after setting it up.  You can in fact let your accountant set it up using their own phone number.  I do it for the missus who set up both accounts with her own phone number. I changed that to my own number for her own tax account and the TSD didn't send OTPs to get into her TSD account. The RD didn't object the same phone number was linked to my account.

 

I find it worthwhile to claim the dividend tax credits because I get rebates of more that the amount of tax that was withheld but it depends on your income and deductions.  I invest the maximum permitted in an LTF which gives me a 500k deduction that helps.  Many people are unaware of the fact that anyone with assessable income is eligible for the LTF deduction.  You don't have to be in employment but the asset management firms generally refuse to accept Americans as clients because they don't want to be bothered with FATCA.

[Dogmatix]

43 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 But if you have no taxable income, and thus owe no tax -- 100% of zero is zero; 200% of zero is zero. Yawn. And that 2000 baht fine for not filing if you have over 120k in assessable income, even tho' you're 380k baht shy of having any taxable income -- is still an unsubstantiated rumor, that really doesn't make any sense when you hold it up to the light.

 

 

Exposed to back audits for the past decade? How many new agents will be required just to determine which farangs were here for over 180 days, and in which years? 

 

***Moderator Note: personal attack and flame removed***

 

60k of income is the point where single people have to file tax returns.  The 2,000 fine for not doing so is fact because it is in the RC.  But there is no record that I know of anyone being fined for not filing when no tax was due.  It is a relatively recent amendment that many or most low income earners don't know about.  The policy was to try to get more people who do their own business filing, so that when they later hit taxable income, it will be automatic for the RD. I don't think it has been very successful and the policy is virtually unenforceable because they know there would a huge backlash, like when the government sued an impoverished old woman for the refund of her 600 a month old age allowance that she wasn't entitled to because she was drawing a miniscule army pension because her son was killed in the army by an explosion caused by an NCO's negligence. 

 

I think many expats who earn less that the taxable amount will be very daunted by filing tax returns and won't bother and I can't blame them.  I doubt that they will be pursued by the RD and fined.  In future, however, it is possible that Immigration will link up the RD and demand tax returns for visa renewal but there has been no talk of that yet.

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Exposed to back audits for the past decade? How many new agents will be required just to determine which farangs were here for over 180 days, and in which years? 

Jim, I'm with you... I guess every expat who's been living here sometime during the past 10 years, and who's not filed a tax return, will be getting a visit or call from the TRD police because the PWC booklet says it's possible. This is exactly why I quit reading this thread every day. Just because it says so in a booklet, doesn't mean it will ever happen, so why put it out there and make people worry. I'm so glad that none of this affects me. I have enough money here, to live on this year without having to remit any, and next year I will happily become a non-tax resident. Good luck to you...

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Jim, I'm with you... I guess every expat who's been living here sometime during the past 10 years, and who's not filed a tax return, will be getting a visit or call from the TRD police because the PWC booklet says it's possible. This is exactly why I quit reading this thread every day. Just because it says so in a booklet, doesn't mean it will ever happen, so why put it out there and make people worry. I'm so glad that none of this affects me. I have enough money here, to live on this year without having to remit any, and next year I will happily become a non-tax resident. Good luck to you...

The issue with all of these things is to determine if they are true and exist or not, not whether they are actively enforced or the likelihood of them being enforced, or the logical difficulties of enforcing them. If we can do that, members can then decide whether they wish to accept the risk of each one, or not. I don't think for one moment that our role is to say yes, rule XY or Z exists but we don't know of anyone who has ever been impacted by it hence everyone can safely ignore it!

[CharlieH]

Post commenting on Moderation has been removed.

[Arkady]

15 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Jim, I'm with you... I guess every expat who's been living here sometime during the past 10 years, and who's not filed a tax return, will be getting a visit or call from the TRD police because the PWC booklet says it's possible. This is exactly why I quit reading this thread every day. Just because it says so in a booklet, doesn't mean it will ever happen, so why put it out there and make people worry. I'm so glad that none of this affects me. I have enough money here, to live on this year without having to remit any, and next year I will happily become a non-tax resident. Good luck to you...

 

Let's not get too exercised about the provision to file tax returns, if you don't have any taxable income.  PWC is correct that it is in the law but, as Dogmatix has explained, it doesn't seem to be enforced for good reasons. There are many other important aspects that are worth posting about.

[Yumthai]

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The issue with all of these things is to determine if they are true and exist or not, not whether they are actively enforced or the likelihood of them being enforced, or the logical difficulties of enforcing them. If we can do that, members can then decide whether they wish to accept the risk of each one, or not. I don't think for one moment that our role is to say yes, rule XY or Z exists but we don't know of anyone who has ever been impacted by it hence everyone can safely ignore it!

IMO both information are valuable and should come along: describing the rules as they truly are and whether it is enforced or not.

Then everyone can decide accordingly.

 

Again, Thailand is not the West and law enforcement level is key part of the equation of any decision.

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

IMO both information are valuable and should come along: describing the rules as they truly are and whether it is enforced or not.

Then everyone can decide accordingly.

 

Again, Thailand is not the West and law enforcement level is key part of the equation of any decision.

I don't disagree, It's just that it's relatively easy to understand what the rules or laws say but it can be next to impossible to understand,  with any degree of certainty, if they are actively enforced, uniformly across the board.

[Dogmatix]

The provision for tax filing for singles is 60k of income, other than income from employment, and 120k income from employment, including employment income from pensions.  But what is unclear here is whether state pensions are included in this.  There are no Thai state pensions and this form of income is not mentioned anywhere in the RC.  So are state pensions income from employment?  Not really because they are not paid by employers.  Are they derived from employment?  Yes indirectly because most countries only pay them to retired workers who generally have to pay contributions. Perhaps an issue to be decided by the Tax Court.  Whether they are considered income from employment has a bearing not only on whether they are taxable at all but on whether the 100K allowance for income from employment is applicable to them

 

If you have income over 120k or 60k, depending on the type of income, but no taxable income and you want to be 100% compliant with the letter of the RC, by all means get a TIN, if your tax office will give you one, and go ahead and file a tax return. In deciding this and/or calculating tax, it is up to you whether you decide that remitted state pension income is income from employment, income from investment, or not assessable income at all because it is not mentioned in the RC.  Personally I would not bother to file for the time being, if my remitted income is below the tax threshold. That provision is not enforced on Thais and it is unlikely it will be enforced on foreigners at this time.  The situation with expat tax returns will be highly chaotic and there will widespread non-compliance with the reinterpretation from both Thais and foreigners, largely because confusion due to the RD's refusal to publish any clarifying guidelines.  So the idea that the RD is going to start trying to track down foreigners who remitted peanuts into the Kingdom to fine them 2,000, when they don't do this with Thais, is preposterous.

 

 

 

[JimGant]

6 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Personally I would not bother to file for the time being, if my remitted income is below the tax threshold.

Amen. Now, can we move on.

[4myr]

3 hours ago, UKresonant said:

 

That is good news perhaps, as the  majority of my pension incomes are issued in the same way as payroll.

 

Was there any stipulation that it must be 100% of such income types to get the credit? ( or proportion of)

Are they quite happy to see one set of payroll with the associated tax deducted in isolation? (Which would be both simple and ideal for me)

 

The UK does not have a specific article for pensions, (except for Government pensions). The TH-UK DTA  does have a clause at 23 (3) that says UK source tax will be allowed as a credit against Thai Tax.

 

 

Well a tax expert of the Dutch DTA says that DTA should be leading [PWC's quote]. So this small provincial tax office of mine is wrong. 

 

As I read UK's DTA 23.3 it has a more open clause that any UK income source for which tax was paid, can be used as a tax credit. The Dutch clauses 23.6 and 23.7 limits/refers to only a few income sources as allowed to be used as a tax credit

[gamb00ler]

On 4/23/2024 at 6:13 PM, Mavideol said:

since when do you have it.... maybe CM it's different from down the south.

I got my Thai tax ID in CM at the revenue office in Nong Hoi in '21.  I am on retirement extensions so I don't have a work permit.

 

I tried to open an SCB high interest savings account and the bank staff got hung up while opening the account.  I asked them "if I get a tax ID can you open the account?".  They said yes.  The next day I took a residence certificate (I think I used an expired one!), a Bangkok bank passbook and my passport to TRD and got my tax ID in under 30 minutes.  The staff didn't raise any issue at all.

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

So the idea that the RD is going to start trying to track down foreigners who remitted peanuts into the Kingdom to fine them 2,000, when they don't do this with Thais, is preposterous.

 

The issue here is not what the TRD might or might not do. The issue is, those people who do not file a return are capable of having their previous 10 tax years audited whereas those who have filed are only exposed to audits covering the previous 2 tax years. But yes, let's move forward to the next thing.

[Lorry]

8 hours ago, stat said:

Can you recommend an agency that does that? I am currently not in Thailand nor did I have interest from a thai bank account but I need a tax certificate from TH (TIN also needed for tax certificate). It is my understanding that I can opt to pay voluntarily a token amount and get a tax certificate. Why TH is not willing to issue a tax certificate (without having paid taxes) stating Mr. X has lived for more then 180 days in TH and is therefore a tax resident is beyond me.

Sorry, I don't know any agency for this. 

Whether the "token amount" would work - I don't know. 

I know one RD office where it didn't work. No tax no TIN.

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, Lorry said:

Sorry, I don't know any agency for this. 

Whether the "token amount" would work - I don't know. 

I know one RD office where it didn't work. No tax no TIN.

I got my TIN 2 years ago at the Chonburi Tax Office in Naklua & at 1st they were reluctant to give me one solely on the basis of reclaiming withheld interest but I'd already briefed the GF to explain to them that we were buying a condo in my name & needed a TIN to pay property tax... they seemed a bit confused about this but gave me one anyway. 

 

NB. I got mine because the UK Bank who I have a mortgage one was insisting I got one, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Mike Lister]

A few people have asked that I update the para on tax filing because many members have never even been into a TRD office and want to understand the end to end process. There's not much else that I can think of to include thus below is how it appears at present. If anyone has suggestions?

 

77) Tax returns must be filed between 1 January and 31 March each year, if you file later than that, penalties will apply. Tax filing is electronic or paper based. the address where paper based returns must be sent can be found in the link below. Whichever method you use to file, you must obtain a TIN first.

 

Completing a tax return is a simple affair for most people, if you have difficulty, the Revenue Department staff are extremely helpful. If you want to file electronically, you should ask the TRD office to set up your on-line account and show you how to use the system. If you are not fluent in Thai it may help to take somebody with you who is. If you want to try doing this yourself at home, the TRD e-filing site is where you can apply for an e-filing account, submit forms and also practise using the system.

 

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

 

[Mike Lister]

For information and the avoidance of doubt, all moderator actions in this thread require the agreement and active participation of myself and one other Moderator or Admin and must be agreed by both people before any action can proceed. This process was implemented a few days ago to ensure there can be no suggestion of bias, either for or against.

[Yumthai]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

A few people have asked that I update the para on tax filing because many members have never even been into a TRD office and want to understand the end to end process. There's not much else that I can think of to include thus below is how it appears at present. If anyone has suggestions?

 

77) Tax returns must be filed between 1 January and 31 March each year, if you file later than that, penalties will apply. Tax filing is electronic or paper based. the address where paper based returns must be sent can be found in the link below. Whichever method you use to file, you must obtain a TIN first.

 

Completing a tax return is a simple affair for most people, if you have difficulty, the Revenue Department staff are extremely helpful. If you want to file electronically, you should ask the TRD office to set up your on-line account and show you how to use the system. If you are not fluent in Thai it may help to take somebody with you who is. If you want to try doing this yourself at home, the TRD e-filing site is where you can apply for an e-filing account, submit forms and also practise using the system.

 

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

Maybe indicate that, as per several people reports, getting a TIN and being able to file a tax return is not 100% granted and at local TRD discretion.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

Maybe indicate that, as per several people reports, getting a TIN and being able to file a tax return is not 100% granted and at local TRD discretion.

Yes, a good point. My response to a poster on this issue in a different thread was this:

 

"Here is the Thai Revenue Department Help Line 02 272 8000. If you call them and tell them what you've said here, I'm pretty sure you will get your TIN in no time at all".

 

I will include the Help Line number in the document

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Maybe indicate that, as per several people reports, getting a TIN and being able to file a tax return is not 100% granted and at local TRD discretion.

I have added the following to para 77:

 

There have been several reports from members who have been refused a TIN. In order to obtain a TIN, You will need to bring the following documentation:

 

a) Completed LP 10.1 form, available at the tax office

b) Valid passport and visa (วีซ่า)

c) Proof of address (e.g., a rental agreement, yellow tabien baan (ทะเบียนบ้าน), or residency certificate from the immigration office)

d) Employment contract (สัญญาจ้างงาน) or proof that you have tax liability in Thailand (e.g., proof of financial transactions)

 

If you continue to have problems obtaining a TIN, the Revenue Department Help Line number is 02 272 8000 and they will be able to assist you.

 

https://www.expatica.com/th/civil/administration/tax-id-thailand-2172861/#apply