Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[bob smith]

Just now, TravelerEastWest said:

An easy, peaceful, safe life - only big problem bad air a few months of the year.

That's a pretty big problem if you ask me!

 

do you enjoy the flooding, the corruption, the bureaucracy, the traffic et al?

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, vukovar77 said:

They just concluded that after all that I do not need to pay additional tax in Thailand.I had electronic -documents signiture from my bank and my RD.They accepted that(we translated in Thai).No need to certified by the tax authority.They check my bank accounts here (take a copy).The procedure was longer and more complex for me and in Thai language mostly.Procedure was not "horrific ",only demanding and new for me.Next time I am prepared and I know what to do.

Thanks for the response. People from some countries may have trouble getting those documents with electronic signature from tax authorities.  I have an accountant prepare my UK tax return but I don't recall receiving any kind of hard copy or electronic document that would be of use from HMRC.  I just have my own tax returns and some tax invoices but no receipts from HMRC. 

 

I think Vukovar's experience in filing tax returns and getting double tax treaty relief from the RD on foreign source pension indicates that they feel they are capable of implementing this without any further ado.  So there might not be any more information or guidelines forthcoming at all. Just do your tax return in 2025 and figure it out for yourself.  Online filing seems out of the question as there is no way to apply for tax credits. 

[transam]

40 minutes ago, bob smith said:

That's a pretty big problem if you ask me!

 

do you enjoy the flooding, the corruption, the bureaucracy, the traffic et al?

Flooding happens in my country, corruption happens in my country, bureaucracy happens in my country, and it also has traffic problems.

 

Now if you say your country doesn't, you would probably be fibbing, or have other problems you haven't mentioned, perhaps the reason you purport to be in LOS..............................????

[bob smith]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Flooding happens in my country, corruption happens in my country, bureaucracy happens in my country, and it also has traffic problems.

 

Now if you say your country doesn't, you would probably be fibbing, or have other problems you haven't mentioned, perhaps the reason you purport to be in LOS..............................????

But there are differing levels of corruption though, aren’t there? Just check out the corruptions perception index and see where Thailand currently sits..

 

it leaves a lot to be desired.

[transam]

9 minutes ago, bob smith said:

But there are differing levels of corruption though, aren’t there? Just check out the corruptions perception index and see where Thailand currently sits..

 

it leaves a lot to be desired.

If it doesn't affect you and me, I don't see a problem....????

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, transam said:

I maybe wrong but......????

An extension is just that, an extension of your visa. Very few of us are actual "resident's", we are non-immigrants being allowed to stay provided certain things to get over the hurdles, but they are saying if you have your feet in the country for 180+ days, you may be taxed on the cash you bring into the country and/or earnings whilst being in the country. 

Technically you are (wrong) but it is a matter of semantics.  A Visa allows you to enter a country (if approved) and each Visa gives you 'permission to stay' in that country for a specific period of time. What can be extended is your 'permission to stay' in Thailand. 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Technically you are (wrong) but it is a matter of semantics.  A Visa allows you to enter a country (if approved) and each Visa gives you 'permission to stay' in that country for a specific period of time. What can be extended is your 'permission to stay' in Thailand. 

Thought that was what I said.........????

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 9/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, Dogmatix said:

Thanks for the response. People from some countries may have trouble getting those documents with electronic signature from tax authorities.  I have an accountant prepare my UK tax return but I don't recall receiving any kind of hard copy or electronic document that would be of use from HMRC.  I just have my own tax returns and some tax invoices but no receipts from HMRC. 

I think Vukovar's experience in filing tax returns and getting double tax treaty relief from the RD on foreign source pension indicates that they feel they are capable of implementing this without any further ado.  So there might not be any more information or guidelines forthcoming at all. Just do your tax return in 2025 and figure it out for yourself.  Online filing seems out of the question as there is no way to apply for tax credits. 

Yep - it looks like it will be clusterpharkk for many of us that do 'technically' earn income from our assets overseas, that will make dealing with Immigration like a walk in the park. As I have said before, I will watch and wait until June 2024, and then find out if/what is likely to happen, and then make a decision.

 

It is all a pain obviously, but the one thing that very very seriously worries me, is that if I decide that I dont need to complete a tax return because I have no 'taxable income', then what will happen in 8-10 years if I get 'called out' by the Thai RD and handed a taxation bill based on X Million Baht being brought into Thailand, plus additional fines for not having done previous tax returns.  That will be a nightmare that do not want to live with hanging over my head. 

 

Many years ago I knew a bloke who had certain 'iffy' financial arrangements for nearly 10 years. His first mistake was doing what he did, and his second mistake was telling others about it (I thionk somone dobbed him in). Anyway, he was nailed to the cross and lost his house and his 'investments' - the wife eventually left him bla bla bla. He eventually moved to another city and 'started again' in his late 40s. That is what I fear the most. Doing an annual 'fight' with the Thai RD is one thing, but not doing annual returns and then having the Thai RD tear me a new one in 8-10 years time, is a huge worry.

 

June 2024 - should I stay or should I go.  For those unaware the photos used by the Clash on their hit song, were actually done in Bangkok.   

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

Thought that was what I said.........????

Yes and No ????

[beammeup]

I think many of us are waiting for clarification. The fact that they have not made any further statements is a bit of a head scratcher..

[Srikcir]

Got this in an email from BOI LTR Visa Unit:

"the revenue department has already announced a royal decree to exempt the LTR- Wealthy Global/ Wealthy Pension/ Work from Thailand from paying the income tax derived from oversea business/ work and assets. Therefore the change in conditions will not effect the exemption of the LTR mentioned group."

 

[Misty]

3 hours ago, Negita43 said:

Just for clarity does a non O visa extension mean I am a resident (I thought it meant just the opposite) - I think the concept of residency is (as in most countries) blurred and confusing.

Finally, there is an old saying "two things you can't escape - death and taxes" For me it's a matter of which comes first????!

There are different types of residency - for example "legal residency" (which in Thailand might be considered Permanent Residency (PR) status, or perhaps Long Term Residency (LTR) visa status). 

 

Separately, there is "tax residency" which is not related and often is simply based on number of days spent in a tax jurisdiction.

 

So you could be a tax resident, but not a legal resident.

[MistyBlue]

Another discussion point to throw into the conversation...  I was interested to read this  quote in the media "...chairwoman of the Association of Investment Management, said the proposed tax on global investments does not include investments in mutual funds.  Investment in this segment is not affected "

 

I went and read the Thai Revenue Code and Section 42 sub items 24 and 24 does seem to suggest the exemption of income tax but I couldn't pinpoint if this only meant Thai funds or could include global/foreign funds.

 

I hold funds in the UK (both closed ended investment trusts and open ended investment funds) so am wondering if there might be an exemption even in worse case scenario of the new rules.

 

It might also be of interest to some of the Australian posters who I think talked about the impact of funds.

 

Obviously I would take professional tax advice when the time comes, and hopefully some further guidance will materialise, but I wonder if fellow forum members have any comment/further insights/experience in this particular matter, especially if I'm getting this completely wrong.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

46 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Got this in an email from BOI LTR Visa Unit:

"the revenue department has already announced a royal decree to exempt the LTR- Wealthy Global/ Wealthy Pension/ Work from Thailand from paying the income tax derived from oversea business/ work and assets. Therefore the change in conditions will not effect the exemption of the LTR mentioned group."

 

So they will exempt LTR holders, but the will tax the retired and married Visa holders?

Surely that would not be a rational or fair approach to take.

Yes Shirley - TiT - welcome to LOS - now you pay taxes please.

No - you Farang get zero Govt services or benefits - you are not Thai.

Yes - 90 day reports, 12 months extensions, no legal rights, deported at any time.

But pay up anyway, unless you are wealthy and can give us lots of money to buy a 10 year Visa.

My wife hates this Government more than she did the Junta.

[stat]

18 hours ago, DudleySquat said:

Who is going to drop a dime to Thailand? Wise? Or our bank here? 

CRS just google it...

[stat]

22 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

Are you sure that LTR 5 year+ retirement visa avoids Thai income tax? I thought it was a requirement, which kind of put me off, just like applying for PR for same reason.

No LTR does not change anyting as it "only" exempts income earned abroad NOT income transfered into TH.

[stat]

23 hours ago, vukovar77 said:

I have tax number as an expat here for about 8 years.Every year they ask to provide more and more documents and data.I am from EU.This year was pretty tough (for 2022)and RD check out all pension listings per month for 2022 to check out did I pay and how much taxes.They ask for yearly tax report in my home country.They ask me to show them my bank accounts in Thai banks as well.I am on retirement visa and I never had any bussiness here or rental income as well.I have Thai wife. Had to go to RD 3 times to provide all data and documents .We live simple life and abide Thai laws which demands for expats with permanent residence to have a tax number.From my experience and from my point of view it is not easy for expats do deal with this all even my income(state pension) is pretty low  comparing with most of expats live here (from my knowledge).If they do not change a new rules, next year will be very challenging for us permanents residents,from my point of view.

Thanks for your post! That is the reason why I never applied for an Thai TIN. Are you in TH with a working visa?

[stat]

16 hours ago, DudleySquat said:

You can't say with a straight face that the police reduce crime here. 

Still paying more vat +visa fees+ ... as 10 average thai people do pay in total taxes, so no offense but your argument does not hold up

[pedro01]

I wonder how ATM withdrawals from an offshore bank will be handled. Previously, it's been a bit expensive to NOT bank here with those fees. I can see me eating those fees as they are 220 THB on a 30k withdrawal, which is way less than being taxed.

[stat]

10 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

If they go ahead with demanding tax returns from foreigners without locally sourced income, they should at least produce tax return forms in English and add spaces for DTA tax credits with guideline notes explaining what is deductible under each of the 60+ DTAs and what supporting documents will be required. They publish English versions of the forms for guidance but don’t allow you to submit the English versions and there can be differences in the English versions too. I have seen cases where the Thai version had been updated but they had not bothered to update the English version, so that new clauses were missing and the numbers of clauses were wrong. 
 

With locally sourced income and no tax credits etc it is possible to file a PNG 90 tax return online, if you can read Thai well enough but otherwise virtually impossible as important messages keep popping up in tiny Thai script. If they are going to tax thousands of foreign retirees, perhaps they should recruit more staff capable of working in English, or perhaps improve the very expensive but poor quality public education system which teaches kids English from primary school to university but creates end products that are incapable of using English in a work situation or even having a basic conversation in the language.

Fully agree. The RD is not capable of handling more than i guess 1000 tax declarations from foreigen countries. If I have to submit my 500 page broker tax declarations in englishor maybe my german bank tax declarations how are they going to process it? No way they have or can find the manpower. But maybe they decide then to tax every cent of my trading revenue as a profit... Current solution should be to receive only gifts from abroad donated via a used credit card only applicable for guys that do not use the visa that demands foreigen remittances.

[Hummin]

42 minutes ago, MistyBlue said:

 

Obviously I would take professional tax advice when the time comes, .

That would be our best option for most of us! I have given up finding any trusted Information in this tread related to the information we have for now.

 

We just have to wait and see how this will play out for the future. 

 

I'm ready to check out at day 179, or make it 178, just to be sure ????

[John Drake]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

I guess a lot of guys didn't get the irony when I chose 2 of the most oft maligned uses of tax money...  Cops and sidewalks.

I have to pay out of my own pocket to repair the sidewalk outside my house. 

[stat]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

Got this in an email from BOI LTR Visa Unit:

"the revenue department has already announced a royal decree to exempt the LTR- Wealthy Global/ Wealthy Pension/ Work from Thailand from paying the income tax derived from oversea business/ work and assets. Therefore the change in conditions will not effect the exemption of the LTR mentioned group."

 

Maybe expicitly ask if income send to Thailand in the same year is exempted with LTR visa or only income generated outside TH. That is the key. Income not send to Thailand will not be taxed with any type of visa, even under the new law. Thanks!

[stat]

15 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

I wonder how ATM withdrawals from an offshore bank will be handled. Previously, it's been a bit expensive to NOT bank here with those fees. I can see me eating those fees as they are 220 THB on a 30k withdrawal, which is way less than being taxed.

You can use cash withdrawal at the counter with BKK Bank without any 220 Baht charge. Check with your CC company some demand a 2% mark up. You can withdraw 500K baht if your bank allows it per day. Also work with yellow bank Krungsri but only for mastercard. Drawdown they make a copy of your passport so maybe a con in regards to 100% identification regarding the new law. If your name is Joe Miller on credit card it will be more diificult to identify the correct Joe Miller.

[Felt 35]

Seems thankfully its only money from whatever brought into Thailand so then assets /interest abroad should stay clear from being taxable in Thailand.

 

Thailand Foreign Source Income Personal Tax - SHERRINGS

[stat]

I just checked about gift tax in TH. Up to 100 Million Baht in gifts that they our relatives send us we are on the safe side. That should be sufficient for most of us folks here ????

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Introduction-of-Inheritance-and-Gift-Tax

[jonny on the spot]

23 minutes ago, stat said:

I just checked about gift tax in TH. Up to 100 Million Baht in gifts that they our relatives send us we are on the safe side. That should be sufficient for most of us folks here ????

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Introduction-of-Inheritance-and-Gift-Tax

So someone can gift me 99 million tax free?

[vukovar77]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Thanks for your post! That is the reason why I never applied for an Thai TIN. Are you in TH with a working visa?

No,I am a bit old to work .I had retirement visa before and take now new marriage visa (Thai wife).

[Misty]

1 hour ago, stat said:

No LTR does not change anyting as it "only" exempts income earned abroad NOT income transfered into TH.

No, sorry but that is not correct.  Three of the LTR visas DO exempt foreign income transferred into Thailand from Thai tax.  Only one visa does not:  LTR HSP. 

 

 

 

 

[stat]

49 minutes ago, jonny on the spot said:

So someone can gift me 99 million tax free?

That is what the tax code for Thailand stipulates. However you could be liable for gift tax in the other country.