Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TroubleandGrumpy]

44 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

It is also my sense that tax returns claiming tax credits under DTAs have been largely or even exclusively used by companies up until now, not by individuals. Thai companies have been liable to tax on their foreign source income for decades, regardless of whether they remit the income to Thailand.  However, there has not been any real for individuals to claim tax credits and there is no space to do so on the PND 91 form which you would think would have been added, if a large number of taxpayers were declaring foreign source income.  Anyone with enough foreign source income to make it worth paying a tax accountant to do the filing could afford to wait till the end of the tax year and remit the money tax free. Most people who needed the money before the end of the tax year are expat pensioners, whom the RD has not bothered up until now, probably assuming the incremental tax they could collect by harassing expat pensioners would not be worth the trouble. But all this seems likely to change.

Exactly.   If the RD is directed to go forward under this new 'method', then without any exclusions for retired/married Expats (like in Malaysia, Philippiones, and other countries) that means all Expat remittances into Thailand can (will?) be viewed as taxable income.  In the past we were put in the one of many 'too hard' baskets by the Thai RD - not worth the efforts. Clearly the Govt is pushing them to close the loopholes, and to also pursue all taxable income. 

 

I do expect that there will be some sort of clarification for all people who could be affected under this change, not just Expats, prior to the end of December this year.  I just cannot fathom Expats who think they can decide themselves what the tax office will decide is and is not taxable, and how DTAs can and will be applied by the RD.  I also think they dont realise that claim (I thought it was not taxable), is not a valid response when/if they are audited in the future.  

 

As I have said before, my plan in response to this new reality in Thailand, is to bring in extra funds before end December this year (because I will not be a tax resident this year).  Then I plan in 2024 to will only bring in my Pension (audit trial included) and some small withdrawals from my Super savings (again audit trail included). I will then lodge a tax return in 2025 and see how it goes.  However, depending on how things pan out, I may change that strategy.  If Thailand Govt/RD provides a clear direction that my money will not be taxable income, and that I do not need to lodge a tax return, then it will be business as usual going forward.  If the Thailand Govt/RD states that all Expat remittances into Thailand over XYZ Baht are taxable income, and each Expat has to claim exemptions and/or credits in their annual tax returns, then I will probably be leaving Thailand (depends on how much I might have to pay) depending on how my 2025 tax return goes. 

[MartinL]

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

As you seem to take great delight in examining  my posts, you should have seen the that my Government  Pension, is a Forces Pension and that I am not old enough to claim the State Pension.

 

My Private pension could very well fall under the Thai tax system, which is why it will no longer be paid to Thailand after the 01 Jan.

 

I do not need you to post things for me to read. I asked to explain where my understanding of the UK / Thai DTA was wrong.

"Great delight in examining" your posts? Why else are your posts here if not to be examined?

 

Anyway, I posted that in a friendly manner as a piece of possibly interesting information of which you might not be aware. It was only AFTER posting that I thought I might not have all the details and looked at earlier posts - please forgive me if that's not acceptable in your book. I agree, I might have been a bit premature in offering information to a &*%# like you. It won't happen again.

[BE88]

19 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Sure and they could go back to the Vietnam  War.....I bet plenty of GIs in Thailand back then who were skipping out on paying tax.....Tax dogers they were and countless expat tax dogers......

Make them all pay up  with penalties and intrest...

 

Heck I bet 100 dollars owed then would be 200-300 hundred thousand by now....

I'm sorry to bother you with what I wrote, but do you think the new government can wait two years before collecting our taxes?

 

We are already all tax residents for the year 2023/2024

 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, MartinL said:

I agree, I might have been a bit premature in offering information to a &*%# like you. It won't happen again.

Wow

 

If I want important information, it wont come from anonymous internet pixels

 

Adios Amigo.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

There is another thread started today about changed procedures for the TM30s in the Pattaya Immigration Office.  May I suggest that some posters here need to go read that thread, and some of the others on the many difficulties Expats have regarding dealing with the Thai Imigration.  My point being - if anyone thinks dealing with the Thai Tax Office will be any better than the Thai Immigration, IMO you are very very mistaken. Knowing as much as possible how it works, and what is the correct way to do something (currently), and what documents are required, is extremely important when dealing with any Thai bureaucracy. Unlike Immigration, the Thai RD have zero obligation to 'teach or advise' Expats (or anyone) how to complete an annual tax return.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

There is another thread started today about changed procedures for the TM30s in the Pattaya Immigration Office.  May I suggest that some posters here need to go read that thread, and some of the others on the many difficulties Expats have regarding dealing with the Thai Imigration.  My point being - if anyone thinks dealing with the Thai Tax Office will be any better than the Thai Immigration, IMO you are very very mistaken. Knowing as much as possible how it works, and what is the correct way to do something (currently), and what documents are required, is extremely important when dealing with any Thai bureaucracy. Unlike Immigration, the Thai RD have zero obligation to 'teach or advise' Expats (or anyone) how to complete an annual tax return.

Jesus H....! You've never filed a tax return, never spent time with RD staff yet you've labelled them as worse than the Immi staff....are you even in Thailand?

 

It has always been the case in my experience, and in the experience of everyone else that I have spoken to about it, that RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue! You should try visiting one of their offices, the next time you visit Thailand.

[SingAPorn]

The new tax rules aimed on foreigners will make the bread and butter for a new generation of crooked tax-lawyers and accountants in Thailand.

 

People are desperately trying to sell their property. No foreigner is buying anymore. This will also make profit and the bread and butter for the opportunists  who will bid to purchase from the foreigner at ridiculously low prices.

 

Not to mention all the side effects on foreign investments,  as foreigners will think only once and not wish to invest in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

[beammeup]

31 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Jesus H....! You've never filed a tax return, never spent time with RD staff yet you've labelled them as worse than the Immi staff....are you even in Thailand?

 

It has always been the case in my experience, and in the experience of everyone else that I have spoken to about it, that RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue! You should try visiting one of their offices, the next time you visit Thailand.

The part about the no queue might not last long

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I just cannot fathom Expats who think they can decide themselves what the tax office will decide is and is not taxable, and how DTAs can and will be applied by the RD.  I also think they dont realise that claim (I thought it was not taxable), is not a valid response when/if they are audited in the future.  

Well said.

 

44 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue!

I never got coffee!!! Not fair!

Otherwise you are right. 

Immigration, in my experience, is sometimes malicious. 

RD has always been helpful.

 

[jayboy]

41 minutes ago, SingAPorn said:

The new tax rules aimed on foreigners

There are no new tax rules, just broad policy directives which will eventually result in specific changes.

 

In any case they are not "aimed on foreigners." Although one would not realize from the multiple and often hysterical posts on this thread, they are aimed at Thais with foreign assets/investments.Foreigners who are 180+ residents may obviously be obliged to pay whatever additional tax is required but they are not the main target.

 

 

[SingAPorn]

6 minutes ago, jayboy said:

There are no new tax rules, just broad policy directives which will eventually result in specific changes.

 

In any case they are not "aimed on foreigners." Although one would not realize from the multiple and often hysterical posts on this thread, they are aimed at Thais with foreign assets/investments.Foreigners who are 180+ residents may obviously be obliged to pay whatever additional tax is required but they are not the main target.

 

 

Ok so it a just a form of speech that you are playing on and arguing. So be it. What next ? You will also use the usual argument and point out lexical or gramatical typo errors ?

 

But it does not change the fact that the concerned foreigners,  bringing in money from abroad will be subject to the hassles and tax.

Edited October 13, 2023 by SingAPorn

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

It is also my sense that tax returns claiming tax credits under DTAs have been largely or even exclusively used by companies up until now, not by individuals. Thai companies have been liable to tax on their foreign source income for decades, regardless of whether they remit the income to Thailand.  However, there has not been any real for individuals to claim tax credits and there is no space to do so on the PND 91 form which you would think would have been added, if a large number of taxpayers were declaring foreign source income.  Anyone with enough foreign source income to make it worth paying a tax accountant to do the filing could afford to wait till the end of the tax year and remit the money tax free. Most people who needed the money before the end of the tax year are expat pensioners, whom the RD has not bothered up until now, probably assuming the incremental tax they could collect by harassing expat pensioners would not be worth the trouble. But all this seems likely to change.

There is a simple solution to the DTA bureaucratic nightmare:

1. Retirees need to show they paid their tax before they can get an extension. 

2. Require as much supporting documentation as possible for the DTA, long lists in Thai only with required notarized and authorized and legalized stuff.

 

Then most retirees have no choice, just pay up, because you would never get all these documents in time before the visa renewal. And the cost a DTA would cause you would be more than the tax, anyway.

RD  staff wouldn't have to learn how to handle DTAs.

 

 

 

[SingAPorn]

1 minute ago, Lorry said:

There is a simple solution to the DTA bureaucratic nightmare:

1. Retirees need to show they paid their tax before they can get an extension. 

2. Require as much supporting documentation as possible for the DTA, long lists in Thai only with required notarized and authorized and legalized stuff.

 

Then most retirees have no choice, just pay up, because you would never get all these documents in time before the visa renewal. And the cost a DTA would cause you would be more than the tax, anyway.

RD  staff wouldn't have to learn how to handle DTAs.

 

 

 

Or the best solution is to relocate to another country and get rid of your property in Thailand. Far more simple and cheaper on the long run.

[Lorry]

4 minutes ago, SingAPorn said:

Or the best solution is to relocate to another country and get rid of your property in Thailand. Far more simple and cheaper on the long run.

I meant a solution for the RD.

They certainly don't want to apply DTAs for hundreds of thousands of little pensioners. 

Too much work 

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, Lorry said:

There is a simple solution to the DTA bureaucratic nightmare:

1. Retirees need to show they paid their tax before they can get an extension. 

2. Require as much supporting documentation as possible for the DTA, long lists in Thai only with required notarized and authorized and legalized stuff.

 

Then most retirees have no choice, just pay up, because you would never get all these documents in time before the visa renewal. And the cost a DTA would cause you would be more than the tax, anyway.

RD  staff wouldn't have to learn how to handle DTAs.

 

 

 

The good old tax clearance certificate. The US used to issue those to green card holders before they could leave the country, as you say, why not require them to be issued before visa's are extended.....it doesn't bear thinking about!

[jacob29]

1 hour ago, SingAPorn said:

People are desperately trying to sell their property. No foreigner is buying anymore. This will also make profit and the bread and butter for the opportunists  who will bid to purchase from the foreigner at ridiculously low prices.

This is ridiculous, it's looking like the tax will be less than just about every other country in the region that simply applies tax on worldwide income (I think Philippines is the exception). Thailand won't be any worse off than other countries in the region.

[tomacht8]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Exactly.   If the RD is directed to go forward under this new 'method', then without any exclusions for retired/married Expats (like in Malaysia, Philippiones, and other countries) that means all Expat remittances into Thailand can (will?) be viewed as taxable income.  In the past we were put in the one of many 'too hard' baskets by the Thai RD - not worth the efforts. Clearly the Govt is pushing them to close the loopholes, and to also pursue all taxable income. 

 

I do expect that there will be some sort of clarification for all people who could be affected under this change, not just Expats, prior to the end of December this year.  I just cannot fathom Expats who think they can decide themselves what the tax office will decide is and is not taxable, and how DTAs can and will be applied by the RD.  I also think they dont realise that claim (I thought it was not taxable), is not a valid response when/if they are audited in the future.  

 

As I have said before, my plan in response to this new reality in Thailand, is to bring in extra funds before end December this year (because I will not be a tax resident this year).  Then I plan in 2024 to will only bring in my Pension (audit trial included) and some small withdrawals from my Super savings (again audit trail included). I will then lodge a tax return in 2025 and see how it goes.  However, depending on how things pan out, I may change that strategy.  If Thailand Govt/RD provides a clear direction that my money will not be taxable income, and that I do not need to lodge a tax return, then it will be business as usual going forward.  If the Thailand Govt/RD states that all Expat remittances into Thailand over XYZ Baht are taxable income, and each Expat has to claim exemptions and/or credits in their annual tax returns, then I will probably be leaving Thailand (depends on how much I might have to pay) depending on how my 2025 tax return goes. 

Everything is still unclear to me.
I have absolutely no desire to additionally torture myself with any Thai tax authorities.
The annual paperwar with the immigration is already enough for me. Since many years I have been able to transfer a total of 1-3 million Thai Baht to Thailand per year to my Thai bank account without any problems.

 

My money is already fully taxed in my home country from rental income, stock dividends and real estate sales. The money i transfered to Thailand was always used to support my Thai family and extended Thai relatives, some construction projects to give my relatives work, health insurance, car financing, school fees for my Thai nephews, etc.
This will no longer happen in 2024.

 

I will transfer a large sum to my Thailand bank account for the last time in 2023 and then it will be over. Planned investments (buying farmland for my Thai family, building a Thai stock portfolio for my thai children, buying another condominium in Thailand) are also being put on hold completely.

 

It would also annoy me if I had to hire any dubious Thai tax advisors.
The only alternative strategies for me so far are: to be in Thailand for less than 180 days per year, or to go on short trips to the Philippines, Singapore, Hong Kong and use Western Union there to transfer up to 20,000 US dollars per trip, which I can then legally take with me back to Thailand.
 

But one thing that will certainly not happen in my case is, that some Thai politicians will enrich themselves with my money through double taxation.

Edited October 13, 2023 by tomacht8

[beammeup]

You'd probably pay more in Western Union fee's than the Thai tax.

[Lorry]

2 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

legally

It would be  legal to bring it into Thailand

It would be illegal not to pay taxes on it.

 

Taxable is "income...brought into Thailand" (RD order 161/2566).

It doesn't matter how you bring it into Thailand,  as a bank remittance,  as cash or whatever. 

The amounts you are talking about are quite noticeable upcountry, you would make yourself vulnerable. 

[bugger bognor]

Congratulations as I predicted this would reach 100 pages of guesswork and fear mongering, let me say it one more time 99,9% of all expats will not pay a penny of tax here , the clarification will come last minute Thai style as usual, some of the drivel spouted in here is comical and absurd the law HASTNT changed and a single statement of an official has you <deleted>ting yourselves especially are dopey USA citizens think about what you are saying for god sake, 

[tomacht8]

12 minutes ago, beammeup said:

You'd probably pay more in Western Union fee's than the Thai tax.

I do not think so.

2 - 4 Million Thai Baht has a Taxrate from 30% !!!

Edited October 13, 2023 by tomacht8

[tomacht8]

6 minutes ago, Lorry said:

It would be  legal to bring it into Thailand

It would be illegal not to pay taxes on it.

 

Taxable is "income...brought into Thailand" (RD order 161/2566).

It doesn't matter how you bring it into Thailand,  as a bank remittance,  as cash or whatever. 

The amounts you are talking about are quite noticeable upcountry, you would make yourself vulnerable. 

Who wants to check how much money I have in my pocket when I arrive by plane from abroad? The reporting obligation only begins at 20K US.

[Lorry]

5 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Who wants to check how much money I have in my pocket when I arrive by plane from abroad? The reporting obligation only begins at 20K US.

The way this is usually done, customs just asks you if you carry any cash.

You don't have to  declare it without being asked, but you obviously have to answer truthfully.

Then random checks,  and if found lying, the money is confiscated. 

 

The bigger problem is, as I said,  these are noticeable amounts. 

Maybe someone will ask where the money  (for the land you buy or whatever) comes from?

 

1000 USD cash into Bangkok,  no problem. 

20,000, repeatedly,  to somewhere upcountry? 

[TravelerEastWest]

On 10/12/2023 at 8:49 PM, topt said:

Please correct me if wrong but my understanding that the online process is in Thai only? I think even the paper record is Thai only (certainly was to reclaim tax withheld on bank interest).

 

If so how many foreigners will be able to circumnavigate the forms even with the help of a significant other...........

Why not hire a CPA? Not expensive...

[Celsius]

29 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

 let me say it one more time 99,9% of all expats will not pay a penny of tax here 

 

What about tax returns? If yes, buh bye

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Celsius

[EVENKEEL]

29 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

Congratulations as I predicted this would reach 100 pages of guesswork and fear mongering, let me say it one more time 99,9% of all expats will not pay a penny of tax here , the clarification will come last minute Thai style as usual, some of the drivel spouted in here is comical and absurd the law HASTNT changed and a single statement of an official has you <deleted>ting yourselves especially are dopey USA citizens think about what you are saying for god sake, 

That's sort of my take on it. Mai pen rai

[redwood1]

37 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

Congratulations as I predicted this would reach 100 pages of guesswork and fear mongering, let me say it one more time 99,9% of all expats will not pay a penny of tax here , the clarification will come last minute Thai style as usual, some of the drivel spouted in here is comical and absurd the law HASTNT changed and a single statement of an official has you <deleted>ting yourselves especially are dopey USA citizens think about what you are saying for god sake, 

O let all the hand wringers have their fun here.....lol

 

Trust me folks this tax insanity will fly about as good as those Thai blimps......Or work about as good as the GT200 drug detectors......Need I go on.....

Edited October 13, 2023 by redwood1

[david555]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

Who wants to check how much money I have in my pocket when I arrive by plane from abroad? The reporting obligation only begins at 20K US.

But your departure country would not be happy if more than 9999 K US or Pound or Euro .....leaves undeclared

Edited October 13, 2023 by david555

[TravelerEastWest]

8 hours ago, Lorry said:

I don't think any taxman in the world would accept your reasoning. 

"Show me all you've got!"

And then it's THEIR decision what is taxable and what not.

Sounds like JIm is correct - he doesn't owe taxes on his pensions.

 

But the Thai government seems to have the right in Thailand to request whatever information they want and make any demands they want - even if their demands are wrong. Then the taxpayer has the right to protest following ThaI law.

 

Similar to America. In America the IRS makes tax assements that are wrong and taxpayers go to court and overturn the assesment. But it gets even more interesting lets say the tax case is in California and the 9th circuit court of appeals supports the taxpayer - the iRS can legally not follow the Appeals court decsion in another district say the 2nd circuit in New York - until they lose there again.

 

The point I am making is that it is fun to think about these new tax rules now (and sometimes very useful) but it dangerous for the lay person to think they understand tax law in general and international tax law in particular... Even local Thai CPAs and lawyers may not understand the new tax rules unless they have advanced training and experience in taxation. As for trusting RD officials to give you the correct advice - in general not a good idea anywhere in the world.... Exceptions exist maybe a tax specialist in the national office may be involved in reseraching and or writing a new law - they could be a source of information but not always...

Edited October 13, 2023 by TravelerEastWest

[stat]

5 hours ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

So the checks and harassment will start to harass foreigners at the airport carrying cash ? With this no more foreigners will want to risk comming to Thailand.

They dont need to as you have to present your passport when you exhange money in a bank or with superrich etc. You could exchange at home and lose like 3% on the exchange rate though. I would not carry more then 10K euro/USD any way.