Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[JackGats]

3 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Today I have received a letter from UBS requesting a [Thai] TIN.

 

I was about to send them my PIN but got second thoughts. Since I have the so called LTR/WP visa, can I tell them that not of money transiting through UBS is assessable in Thailand and that therefore I have no TIN to provide? 

 

I am not sure I want to do that, because I wouldn't like it if they closed my accounts. But their letter was threatening at all, a reminder might be though..

I think UBS couldn't care less about your LTR visa or the tax exemption that goes with it. Go and get a Thai TIN asap. It will be useful not just this time with UBS.

 

P.S. Show the Thais the letter you got from UBS. They'll understand you need a TIN and will give you one. I got one after I said I needed one to open an account in Europe. I got one on the spot. It took 20 minutes.

Edited April 9 by JackGats

[JackGats]

3 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Why would they close your account if you are legally exempted from tax and not required to have a TIN?

 

Because a TIN is for the CRS or FACTA. Bank data can be exchanged regardless of whether you pay tax.

 

Some banks in Europe seem to make offshore resident status conditional on showing a TIN from the country you say you reside in.

 

A TIN is also required on any W-8BEN form, in case you own US shares.

[UKresonant]

7 hours ago, chang50 said:

Very few I suspect including sections of the revenue department.I went to Jomtien tax office this morning after following the simple tax guide to get a tin number as per the law and came away empty handed.They told my wife and I to come back next year with a bank statement.This will be way past the mandated 60 days deadline for bringing assessable income into Thailand and my residence cert. might be expired after 30 days.A total waste of time and money!

Verbal  rejection?

I think a rejection in a written signed and stamped form would be lovely to have. 

I think I would try and put on (old) puppy eyes and show a downloaded tax residencyself declaration form, such as the HSBC form, that asks for a TIN or a reason for not having one on the form.

'Please can you give me something I can show my bank ( as my bank has a similar form ....).'

If they give you something official looking something It gives a point of reference should any staff contradict later. 

 

For me the difficulty may be keeping a straight face and not skipping out the door if successful, in getting a.formal rejection. 

Edited April 9 by UKresonant

[Mike Lister]

49 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

If not taxable do you still have to get a TIN and/or submit a tax return!

It depends who you want to listen to, those who say it's a pointless exercise because there's no penalty or those who say you should follow the letter of the law. For my part, I'd need to know what the exact number is before answering that question.

[scottiejohn]

41 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It depends who you want to listen to, those who say it's a pointless exercise because there's no penalty or those who say you should follow the letter of the law. For my part, I'd need to know what the exact number is before answering that question.

What?  I have given you the numbers! But forget that!

They are two very simple questions.

If you consider yourself to be not liable for tax after considering your "information" above do you have to do either of the following; (hint answer yes or no!)

a) Do you have to obtain a TIN?

b) Do you have to file a tax return?

There is a third answer!  Just say either;

You don't know or nobody knows yet!

 

 

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, JackGats said:

Because a TIN is for the CRS or FACTA. Bank data can be exchanged regardless of whether you pay tax.

 

Some banks in Europe seem to make offshore resident status conditional on showing a TIN from the country you say you reside in.

 

A TIN is also required on any W-8BEN form, in case you own US shares.

A TIN for CRS/FATCA is never a requirement if the individual is legally not required to get one.

Likewise, W-8BEN form contains the box 6b to check for those who are not legally required to obtain an FTIN from their jurisdiction of residence.

 

Now, some financial institutions may have too picky internal policies. You are still free to vote with your feet.

Edited April 9 by Yumthai

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, JackGats said:

I think UBS couldn't care less about your LTR visa or the tax exemption that goes with it. Go and get a Thai TIN asap. It will be useful not just this time with UBS.

 

P.S. Show the Thais the letter you got from UBS. They'll understand you need a TIN and will give you one. I got one after I said I needed one to open an account in Europe. I got one on the spot. It took 20 minutes.

I reckon you are right, but do I need a TIN, as I have a PIN? My wife has a TIN and it shows the same number as her PIN..

[JackGats]

4 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

I reckon you are right, but do I need a TIN, as I have a PIN? My wife has a TIN and it shows the same number as her PIN..

I don't know what a PIN is. Is it the swiss taxpayer's number? The TIN is the internationaly recognized format. National taxpayer's numbers have digits that overlap with the TIN. The Thai TIN has 13 digits I think.

[Ben Zioner]

14 minutes ago, JackGats said:

I don't know what a PIN is. Is it the swiss taxpayer's number? The TIN is the internationaly recognized format. National taxpayer's numbers have digits that overlap with the TIN. The Thai TIN has 13 digits I think.

The PIN is the Personal Identification Number (13 digits) that is on top of Thai ID cards. It start with 1 for Thais and 6 for most [non PR] foreigners.

 

Just found this, where it says TIN isn't needed where a PIN is available.

[Klonko]

2 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Maybe it's time to move to more flexible and closer jurisdictions like priority/premium banking in Singapore ....

Last year, I wanted to diversify my banking relationships geographically and approached Singapore banks, which, however, could not accommodate the investment in an Irish ETF on the MSCI World ACWI.

 

[scottiejohn]

Can anyone on this forum answer either of these two very simple questions with a yes/no response?

"If a person does not owe any taxes to the Thai Government does that person have to make a tax return?"

or

 "If a person believes that they do not owe any taxes to the Thai Government does that person have to make a tax return?"

Edited April 9 by scottiejohn
2nd para added

[UKresonant]

5 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Would a basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from UK using the 800,000 (already in the bank pre 2024) in the bank method be liable for tax and if not would he need to obtain a TIN and file a tax return.

If over the 179 days per Calendar year, so Tax Resident in Thailand;-

 

Income up to ~21000 THB/month, no tax as £60k per annum personal allowance and 190k per annum over 65 allowance.

+

Then additionally to the 21k/month;-

There is a 150k zero tax band, so that gives another 12500 THB/month

 

So no tax due (overseas pensions income, age over 65), call it up to 33333 THB /month  (as an easy to remember number)

 

If  there was more, apparently there is an expense deduction of 50% of pension up to 100k Baht (a greyer area maybe) but that gives another 8333 THB / month, with no tax payable, if a tax return was made.

 

There is an ongoing debate about the TIN, so I skip that for now. ( The written over 120k, is maybe not the actual custom and practice though ) https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

Speculation that maybe the Tax Office managers want an expectation of a least 120k THB /per annum that is actually taxable, before is is worth issuing a TIN...)

 

Just keep all your paperwork filed and archived ongoing, if under 33333/THB per month, actually remitted to a Thai bank. But I  suppose they could say that you don't get the allowances unless you filed. so a simple yes / no is elusive...

 

 

Edited April 9 by UKresonant

[JackGats]

22 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

The PIN is the Personal Identification Number (13 digits) that is on top of Thai ID cards. It start with 1 for Thais and 6 for most [non PR] foreigners.

 

Just found this, where it says TIN isn't needed where a PIN is available.

Ok then I think PIN = TIN. Give your PIN to UBS saying it's your Thai TIN.

 

I heard a similar story but the reverse, namely it could work to use one's Thai TIN instead of the Pink Card number, in case one had a TIN but no Pink Card.

[JackGats]

14 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Can anyone on this forum answer a very simple question with a yes/no response?

"If a person does not owe any taxes to the Thai Government does that person have to make a tax return?"

This is a question owners of an LTR visa will love to get an answer to by the beginning of next year.

[scottiejohn]

11 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

if a tax return was made.

Who or when does a tax return have to be made?

 

[topt]

Just now, JackGats said:

This is a question owners of an LTR visa will love to get an answer to by the beginning of next year.

My understanding is that they are definitely exempt from paying so if they do not file there can be no penalty as they owe nothing. Not sure why you think it is an outstanding question?

[Klonko]

9 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Can anyone on this forum answer a very simple question with a yes/no response?

"If a person does not owe any taxes to the Thai Government does that person have to make a tax return?"

You must file a tax return if you have assessable income above low thresholds. But you only will be fined (severely) if you do not pay taxes owed, i.e. if assessable income minus allowances etc. is higher than the first tax free THB 150k bracket. The general consensus seems to be: you have to file but no consequences if no taxes owed.

[scottiejohn]

2 minutes ago, JackGats said:

This is a question owners of an LTR visa will love to get an answer to by the beginning of next year.

Not just them! 

It is a very basic question which nobody seems to want to give a straight answer to!

If you do not owe tax do you have to submit a tax return?

[quake]

25 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Can anyone on this forum answer either of these two very simple questions with a yes/no response?

"If a person does not owe any taxes to the Thai Government does that person have to make a tax return?"

or

 "If a person believes that they do not owe any taxes to the Thai Government does that person have to make a tax return?"

 

Sure.

No

No.

 

But demanding an answer to a whole group of complicated questions, under the banner of two questions  is a bit silly.

But your be fine. forage ahead. 

 

 

Edited April 9 by quake

[topt]

20 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Can anyone on this forum answer a very simple question with a yes/no response?

"If a person does not owe any taxes to the Thai Government does that person have to make a tax return?"

This has been discussed ad nauseam in various threads. If you fully believe you don't owe anything then up to you if you file.

If you don't file and they come knocking (highly unlikely in your supposed case) and you don't owe anything then no foul so no fine.

The reverse of course may apply.

Edited April 9 by topt

[scottiejohn]

1 minute ago, Klonko said:

The general consensus seems to be: you have to file

So you are saying that everybody resident in Thailand over 180 days, of all nationalities, must file a tax return!

[JackGats]

3 minutes ago, topt said:

My understanding is that they are definitely exempt from paying so if they do not file there can be no penalty as they owe nothing. Not sure why you think it is an outstanding question?

Filing taxes and paying taxes are 2 different things. It might be useful to be able to show the taxman back home you filed taxes in Thailand.

[Ben Zioner]

5 minutes ago, topt said:

My understanding is that they are definitely exempt from paying so if they do not file there can be no penalty as they owe nothing. Not sure why you think it is an outstanding question?

I don't plan to file next year. If asked I'll say that since 99.9 % of my income isn't taxable, under RD 743, I thought I didn't want to waste their time. I'll pay a fine if needed, but I doubt it'll be much more than a few hundred baht.

[scottiejohn]

4 minutes ago, quake said:

But demanding an answer to a whole group of complicated questions, under the banner of two questions  is a bit silly.

 Where am I "demanding an answer to a whole group of complicated questions, under the banner of two questions"?

I have asked only two simple questions!

And as such I am still waiting for two simple answers, if it is possible, for them to be forthcoming from my two simple questions!

 

 

[topt]

4 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Filing taxes and paying taxes are 2 different things. It might be useful to be able to show the taxman back home you filed taxes in Thailand.

Not in my specific instance and I doubt HMRC would pay any attention to a filing alone if you were looking to offset against the DTA........

[topt]

Just now, scottiejohn said:

 Where am I "demanding an answer to a whole group of complicated questions, under the banner of two questions"?

I have asked only two simple questions!

And as such I am still waiting for two simple answers, if it is possible, for them to be forthcoming from my two simple questions!

 

 

I answered you. Up to you what you do with it. 

Quake answered you but again your choice whether to agree with his answer.

Klonko same same.

 

How many answers do you want.........

[topt]

5 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

I don't plan to file next year. If asked I'll say that since 99.9 % of my income isn't taxable, under RD 743, I thought I didn't want to waste their time. I'll pay a fine if needed, but I doubt it'll be much more than a few hundred baht.

If I understand correctly you have a LTR? If so I don't see any reason why you need bother unless they change the guidance.......

[Ben Zioner]

1 minute ago, topt said:

If I understand correctly you have a LTR? If so I don't see any reason why you need bother unless they change the guidance.......

Yes, that's what I was saying.

[jayboy]

16 minutes ago, Klonko said:

The general consensus seems to be: you have to file but no consequences if no taxes owed.

 

Is that the general consensus? There will be many tax residents who have no assessable income.In other words they made substantial remittances to Thailand before 31.12.24 from funds acquired before that date.This presumably would also apply to funds remitted during 2024 if clear these were earned before 31.12.24.In the latter case one would need to provide proof if required.

 

Hard to say whether a tax return required in such circumstances.Not a big deal but would RD be interested in a nil return? Would they even accept one? Best advice is probably to wait and see over the next few months and if necessary obtain a TIN later in the year.

 

 

[jayboy]

45 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Ok then I think PIN = TIN. Give your PIN to UBS saying it's your Thai TIN.

 

I heard a similar story but the reverse, namely it could work to use one's Thai TIN instead of the Pink Card number, in case one had a TIN but no Pink Card.

 

Just because one knows what one's TIN number will be isn't surely sufficient.It actually needs to be registered and associated with your name at the Tax Department - or so I would think.