Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[stat]

20 hours ago, Lorry said:

I was talking about withdrawing Thai baht from a Thai ATM, using a European credit card

I was talking German cc withdrawing from Thai ATM. There is a very good thread here at Aseannow about creditcard withdrawals. You absolutley have to check or test your cc conditions and get a good cc, preferably mc as they offer slightly better rates then visa on average.

[UKresonant]

5 hours ago, RupertIII said:

I have been under the understanding that there is no tax liability on inheritance from parents up to 100m THB., nor is there any tax on income derived from inheritance, up to certain limits, under Section 42 Para. [10].

 

My wife has today been speaking with our Thai lawyer who has advised that this is only the case if the inheritance was remitted to Thailand in the year it was received and if not then tax will be due as when all or any of the monies are remitted into Thailand.

 

Is anyone able to confirm this one way or the other? 

Did the lawyer elaborate on what they would anticipate it would be taxed as, if not brought in same year.

 

I could anticipate any interest, Divs or the like being taxed, which were derived from the inheritance principle.  But seems a bit curious about the principle inherited.

 

Not knowledgeable enough to confirm anything unfortunately.

[KhunHeineken]

13 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

I would seriously doubt that the Thai Government cares or will care about this.It is so marginal/irrelevant to what is planned for tax in initiatives in Thailand, and furthermore impossible to police/monitor given the millions of non residents who use ATM's here.

I was thinking more about large over the counter cash advances, particularly when ID is asked for, and bank staff can see the person making the withdrawal is an expat.

 

I am aware that the use of ATM's will be difficult to impossible to enforce, that's why I suggested it months ago.   

[KhunHeineken]

On 5/15/2024 at 4:26 AM, Mike Teavee said:

I honestly think TRD are just looking for you to do all of the calculations & declare what Tax you believe you owe

I said from Day 1 the only way they can make this tax policy work effectively is to have the Thai banks involved, and possibly implement a withholding tax upon deposit, with an amount  possibly refunded at the end of the calendar year through a tax return. 

 

Or, at the end of the calendar year, the Thai banks report to the RD the total amount of the money that flowed through each account, and then you are taxed accordingly. 

 

Most expats transfer money from a bank account in their home country to a Thai bank account.  At that point, it's remitted funds.  Without the Thai banks reporting these amounts, this tax policy can not be effective. 

 

On another note, if the use of ATM's by expats as a tax avoidance strategy becomes wide spread, it effectively cuts out Thai banks, thus, they don't have hard currency cash injections each fortnight / month from expats, so the Thai banks may not be so happy with this tax policy, not to mention, they may have more work to do on behalf of the Thai government by way of reporting, as mentioned above. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 5/15/2024 at 1:33 PM, Dogmatix said:

 

That is possible but my experience with the RD is that they request documentation on anything in the tax return they don't already have direct inputs for. So it would be a departure from their current practice to let declared foreign source income go by on the nod. It could be that they will take the approach you suggest for practical reasons for the first few years.  Another issue will be foreigners who show up at RD officers to let the staff do their tax returns for them.  Unless there is direct order not to request any supporting documentation, it will be hard to restrain these folk from demanding it.  

I'm attempting a little humor here, but it could be possible. 

 

Perhaps the whole idea is to set up a new "tax agent" industry, similar to the pretty much illegal, but not enforced, and in fact encouraged, visa agent industry. 

 

Maybe the whole idea is the RD wants a cut from "tax agents" that many foreigners will use just to relieve themselves of tax paperwork each year and pay an agent to "fix" everything with the RD for a fee. 

 

Sounds funny, but it's been happening for decades with visa agents circumventing the 800k seed money and other visa requirements.  It's no secret.  The visa shops have signs on their windows and websites. 

 

Maybe the real reason for this tax policy is to create another "agent" industry so another government department cashes in as well, and we all know the money flows to the very top.

 

As I said in another post, the only way this tax policy can work is if the Thai banks record and report remitted funds.  If they are not required to, than I am looking for another motive for this tax policy, and as funny as it may sound, is it really that funny? 

 

It's been happening with visas agents for decades.  Why not tax agents in the future?  

[Rimmer]

A couple of off topic posts discussing tax evasion / tax avoidance  have been removed.

 

If you want to get into that area suggest to start a new topic discussing legal strategies.

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

6 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I'm attempting a little humor here, but it could be possible. 

 

Perhaps the whole idea is to set up a new "tax agent" industry, similar to the pretty much illegal, but not enforced, and in fact encouraged, visa agent industry. 

 

Maybe the whole idea is the RD wants a cut from "tax agents" that many foreigners will use just to relieve themselves of tax paperwork each year and pay an agent to "fix" everything with the RD for a fee. 

 

Sounds funny, but it's been happening for decades with visa agents circumventing the 800k seed money and other visa requirements.  It's no secret.  The visa shops have signs on their windows and websites. 

 

Maybe the real reason for this tax policy is to create another "agent" industry so another government department cashes in as well, and we all know the money flows to the very top.

 

As I said in another post, the only way this tax policy can work is if the Thai banks record and report remitted funds.  If they are not required to, than I am looking for another motive for this tax policy, and as funny as it may sound, is it really that funny? 

 

It's been happening with visas agents for decades.  Why not tax agents in the future?  

Not a crazy concept. Recently I had to spend time at my bank getting ready for extension. All 3 times this one agent was crazy busy. The ladies working there would take his paperwork, sign and stamp very quickly. Like no words spoken, a very well oiled machine. Got me wondering how much the bank employees are compensated.

 

While I don't believe a genuine program for taxing regular foreigners with no business interests in Thailand could be implemented. The way they legalized marijuana  shows the ones in charge don't think things through.

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Not a crazy concept. Recently I had to spend time at my bank getting ready for extension. All 3 times this one agent was crazy busy. The ladies working there would take his paperwork, sign and stamp very quickly. Like no words spoken, a very well oiled machine. Got me wondering how much the bank employees are compensated.

 

While I don't believe a genuine program for taxing regular foreigners with no business interests in Thailand could be implemented. The way they legalized marijuana  shows the ones in charge don't think things through.

I guess we'll see towards the end of the year.  Perhaps the current agents offering visa, drivers licenses etc etc "services" will expand into tax reporting in preparation for early 2025, after the tax policy has been in force for one full reporting year. 

 

I have no doubt businesses will be offering taxation services to foreigners who have never needed such a service before, it's just how legitimate those services will be. 

 

I have a feeling we'll all be getting a laugh out of it in the future. 

[EVENKEEL]

35 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I guess we'll see towards the end of the year.  Perhaps the current agents offering visa, drivers licenses etc etc "services" will expand into tax reporting in preparation for early 2025, after the tax policy has been in force for one full reporting year. 

 

I have no doubt businesses will be offering taxation services to foreigners who have never needed such a service before, it's just how legitimate those services will be. 

 

I have a feeling we'll all be getting a laugh out of it in the future. 

And many foreigner tax experts will try to make some money here as well. 

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

I said from Day 1 the only way they can make this tax policy work effectively is to have the Thai banks involved, and possibly implement a withholding tax upon deposit, with an amount  possibly refunded at the end of the calendar year through a tax return. 

 

Or, at the end of the calendar year, the Thai banks report to the RD the total amount of the money that flowed through each account, and then you are taxed accordingly. 

 

Most expats transfer money from a bank account in their home country to a Thai bank account.  At that point, it's remitted funds.  Without the Thai banks reporting these amounts, this tax policy can not be effective. 

 

On another note, if the use of ATM's by expats as a tax avoidance strategy becomes wide spread, it effectively cuts out Thai banks, thus, they don't have hard currency cash injections each fortnight / month from expats, so the Thai banks may not be so happy with this tax policy, not to mention, they may have more work to do on behalf of the Thai government by way of reporting, as mentioned above. 

 

All good points......

 

It seems to me most changes or policy changes in Thailand end up a disaster most of the time...

 

For crying out loud it took them over 6 years to get the online 90 day reporting to work at least most of the time....How about the new weed policy?....... How about the elections...bla bla bla

I could fill a whole page up listing things...Just simple things turn into a convoluted mess.....

 

This tax stuff is hugely and massively complicated ...It involves lots of international treaties...Plus every county has different tax laws for all kinds of different financial things like pensions savings investing etc....

 

Different languages, laws, countries...

 

They have no hope, not in a million years of ever making this work...It just is not going to happen...

 

 

Edited May 17 by redwood1

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I was thinking more about large over the counter cash advances, particularly when ID is asked for, and bank staff can see the person making the withdrawal is an expat.

Very easy in fact.

 

Your bank will know that you reside in Thailand and request a Thai TIN, happens all the time now, happened to me. On request by the Thai RD the bank will provide a listing of your withdrawals in Thailand. Think about it. 

 

[Presnock]

On 5/14/2024 at 5:36 PM, KhunHeineken said:

You are missing the bigger picture. 

 

I am not suggesting Immigration do the RD's job.  I am simply suggesting it's entirely possible that the Thai government uses foreigner's need for a visa / extension as an easy way to ensure compliance. 

 

Basically, you have to contact the RD and deal with them over your tax implications before they issue you some type of receipt / certificate / document that can / will / may have to be presented to Immigration before your visa / extension is issued. 

 

This would mean the Thai government doesn't chase foreigners, as foreigners have to go to them.  Simple and easy way of ensuring compliance. 

 

I have no link to post about this.  It's just an idea I have about how they will push all expats into the Thai tax system with the minimum of effort.  

Personnally, we have heard suggested that they are doing it on a honest volunteer in obtaining an ID and doing tax forms if we have assessble income meeting the necessary levels for submitting.  If they do have access to our funds from the home country banks and that of the Thai banks in which we have accounts, at a certain level of remittances they may ask us for some kind of documentation on why we have not done as required - at that point we may need documentation that it shows those remittances are exempt and the why i.e. govt pension and DTA or LTR or whatever one uses for exemption and no report.  As yet though we don't even have  clue as whatever the new interpretation entails.   Seems to me like basic taxes with basic exemptions.  By now most people should have been able to determine if there is any chance they have not paid taxes to a home country nor to Thailand then they probably are going to have to pay here without something like the LTR.  If they are working and earning in Thailand, then believe they will have to pay something here but then again who am I to decide - I sure don't know anyone else's finance/banking/work or whatever but I am confident for the most part on MY situation.

Good luck to all.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 5/15/2024 at 10:19 AM, KhunHeineken said:

I can't see the Thai government allowing it to be that easy to access funds, without paying the tax, but that is the topic of compliance / enforcement and will no doubt be discussed in the future when we will all see how the Thai government ensures the payment of this tax. 

Yes indeed - the issue of compliance and enforcement following this rule change is a big question still unanswered by TRD.  Perhaps they are writing a new section of the tax code that will cover the issues related to foreign sourced income - unknown speculation and until they provide all the answers to questions many are asking we will not know (and even then maybe not).

[Mike Lister]

8 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I said from Day 1 the only way they can make this tax policy work effectively is to have the Thai banks involved, and possibly implement a withholding tax upon deposit, with an amount  possibly refunded at the end of the calendar year through a tax return. 

 

Or, at the end of the calendar year, the Thai banks report to the RD the total amount of the money that flowed through each account, and then you are taxed accordingly. 

 

Most expats transfer money from a bank account in their home country to a Thai bank account.  At that point, it's remitted funds.  Without the Thai banks reporting these amounts, this tax policy can not be effective. 

 

On another note, if the use of ATM's by expats as a tax avoidance strategy becomes wide spread, it effectively cuts out Thai banks, thus, they don't have hard currency cash injections each fortnight / month from expats, so the Thai banks may not be so happy with this tax policy, not to mention, they may have more work to do on behalf of the Thai government by way of reporting, as mentioned above. 

One of the many problems with this long tax thread is that topics get debated and then forgotten and lost so necommers such as yourself try to reinvent the wheel. It was long ago very quickly determined that a with holding tax on remittances stands absolutely zero chance of being implemented. Banks do not know what remittances are assessable income nor which account holder is tax resident. Holiday makers who have Thai bank accounts will stop vacationing here if their holiday money is suddenly taxed and property buyers will stop buying property is the purchase money is taxed.

[stat]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

One of the many problems with this long tax thread is that topics get debated and then forgotten and lost so necommers such as yourself try to reinvent the wheel. It was long ago very quickly determined that a with holding tax on remittances stands absolutely zero chance of being implemented. Banks do not know what remittances are assessable income nor which account holder is tax resident. Holiday makers who have Thai bank accounts will stop vacationing here if their holiday money is suddenly taxed and property buyers will stop buying property is the purchase money is taxed.

I agree, highly unlikely that a withholding will be implemented on short notice.

[SingAPorn]

After reading all the comments, to make things simple, don't chose Thailand for your retirement unless you want to run back and fort between embassies, banks, translators, accountant offices, immigration for the last part of your life.

[Lorry]

Bringing money into Thailand without converting it into Thai Baht:

1. Transfer money from abroad into a foreign currency account in Thailand

2. bring cash USD and keep it under your mattress, exchange it when the rate is better

 

In these cases,  has the money been "remitted" into Thailand when it was brought in, or only when it has been exchanged into Thai baht?

How are these cases treated by the RD now?

How does HMRC see this situation (Thailand might copy them)?

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Lorry said:

Bringing money into Thailand without converting it into Thai Baht:

1. Transfer money from abroad into a foreign currency account in Thailand

2. bring cash USD and keep it under your mattress, exchange it when the rate is better

 

In these cases,  has the money been "remitted" into Thailand when it was brought in, or only when it has been exchanged into Thai baht?

How are these cases treated by the RD now?

How does HMRC see this situation (Thailand might copy them)?

Thai banks are not offshore banks, (although, some of their foreign currency accounts share some similarities with offshore accounts). The reality is that when funds, be they USD, GBP, YEN, or any other currency, are remitted to Thailand, they physically arrive in the country, it's not as though they do not, just because they arrive into a foreign currency account. If however that currency arrived here and was deposited into a non-resident foreign currency account, the BOT (and their agents the Thai banks) and the TRD, would treat those funds as offshore funds, for accounting and tax purposes. In that case, the funds would only actually arrive in Thailand for tax accounting purposes, once the foreign currency was converted into THB and withdrawn. But since the account owner is not Thai tax resident, there is no taxable event as a result.

 

So, the first question is whether the foreign currency account at the Thai bank is a resident or non-resident account, because that makes all the difference to the answer.

 

The second question is: if a foreigner opened a non-resident foreign currency account in Thailand, on the basis they are not tax resident here, what would happen to the status of that account, if one year the foreigner became tax resident and continued to operate the account? The answer is that the the account would revert to a resident foreign currency account as soon as the change in tax residency became known. The account would then be regarded entirely as an onshore account and provide no protection from tax whatsoever. In that case, any withdrawal of funds from the account, in any currency, would trigger a taxable event. AND, any past remittances  received into the account, during the year the account holder was tax resident, would become taxable retroactively.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

I've seen several statement that ponder...... how does the TRD ensure enforcement and compliance with the tax law?

 

I put it to you that if any tax payer in any country, went to their revenue department and asked them to explain, "how do you enforce compliance with tax regulations", nobody in their right mind would expect a full and complete answer. These are things that are discovered after the fact as taxpayers begin to join up the dots. Announcing what those measures are publically and beforehand, is virtual permission to start designing ways to circumvent them! So, if anyone is waiting for an announcement on this, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

[KhunHeineken]

18 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

All good points......

 

It seems to me most changes or policy changes in Thailand end up a disaster most of the time...

 

For crying out loud it took them over 6 years to get the online 90 day reporting to work at least most of the time....How about the new weed policy?....... How about the elections...bla bla bla

I could fill a whole page up listing things...Just simple things turn into a convoluted mess.....

 

This tax stuff is hugely and massively complicated ...It involves lots of international treaties...Plus every county has different tax laws for all kinds of different financial things like pensions savings investing etc....

 

Different languages, laws, countries...

 

They have no hope, not in a million years of ever making this work...It just is not going to happen...

 

 

I agree. As suggested, maybe the policy is designed to do absolutely nothing but raise "tea money."  Yes, funny, but is it? 

[KhunHeineken]

18 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Very easy in fact.

 

Your bank will know that you reside in Thailand and request a Thai TIN, happens all the time now, happened to me. On request by the Thai RD the bank will provide a listing of your withdrawals in Thailand. Think about it. 

 

Like I said, the only way this policy can work is if the Thai banks are involved, and that's just for a start.  To date, there's been no information of Thai banks having to record and report the flow of remitted funds. 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Like I said, the only way this policy can work is if the Thai banks are involved, and that's just for a start.  To date, there's been no information of Thai banks having to record and report the flow of remitted funds. 

Thai banks are agents of the BOT, they report vast amounts of information to them regularly, loans, balance sheets, NPL's foreign currency transactions etc etc etc, BOT sees it all. Whether or not BOT makes that information accessible to other government departments is debatable, but would you think on this point!

[KhunHeineken]

17 hours ago, Presnock said:

Personnally, we have heard suggested that they are doing it on a honest volunteer in obtaining an ID and doing tax forms if we have assessble income meeting the necessary levels for submitting.  If they do have access to our funds from the home country banks and that of the Thai banks in which we have accounts, at a certain level of remittances they may ask us for some kind of documentation on why we have not done as required - at that point we may need documentation that it shows those remittances are exempt and the why i.e. govt pension and DTA or LTR or whatever one uses for exemption and no report.  As yet though we don't even have  clue as whatever the new interpretation entails.   Seems to me like basic taxes with basic exemptions.  By now most people should have been able to determine if there is any chance they have not paid taxes to a home country nor to Thailand then they probably are going to have to pay here without something like the LTR.  If they are working and earning in Thailand, then believe they will have to pay something here but then again who am I to decide - I sure don't know anyone else's finance/banking/work or whatever but I am confident for the most part on MY situation.

Good luck to all.

They may use SWIFT or IBAN etc to collect data from the Thai side.  Who knows? 

 

I'd be surprised if the Thai's left it up to the honesty of people to volunteer the amount of their remitted funds, but you could be right.  Even if people under reported their amount of remitted funds in 2025, that's still more money than the Thai government received in 2024.  It's just another earner for them. 

[KhunHeineken]

17 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes indeed - the issue of compliance and enforcement following this rule change is a big question still unanswered by TRD.  Perhaps they are writing a new section of the tax code that will cover the issues related to foreign sourced income - unknown speculation and until they provide all the answers to questions many are asking we will not know (and even then maybe not).

Yes, and this is not allowed to be discussed until then, but they must have something up their sleeve, whether it's well conceived, or not. 

 

One thing is for sure, whatever they implement, it will cost them no votes at election time because farang can't vote, so on that basis, anything is possible. 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

They may use SWIFT or IBAN etc to collect data from the Thai side.  Who knows? 

 

I'd be surprised if the Thai's left it up to the honesty of people to volunteer the amount of their remitted funds, but you could be right.  Even if people under reported their amount of remitted funds in 2025, that's still more money than the Thai government received in 2024.  It's just another earner for them. 

SWIFT is an optional subscription based messaging system, members report ALL SWIFT or international transfer activity to BOT but SWIFT is not required to report.

[Ben Zioner]

18 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Like I said, the only way this policy can work is if the Thai banks are involved, and that's just for a start.  To date, there's been no information of Thai banks having to record and report the flow of remitted funds. 

I meant the overseas bank, the obe who issued the credit card.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

I meant the overseas bank, the obe who issued the credit card.

Overseas issuing banks will not report anything to Thailand but the Mastercard and Visa networks, the transport layers, report extensively.

[Ben Zioner]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Overseas issuing banks will not report anything to Thailand but the Mastercard and Visa networks, the transport layers, report extensively.

So why would overseas banks request Thai TINs from their Thai resident customers? 

 

They are bound by CRS to disclose any information on request by the authorities  of the country of residence.

 

I have been requested to provide a TIN by UBS, and some members here have been requested to do so by their UK bank. 

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, and this is not allowed to be discussed until then, but they must have something up their sleeve, whether it's well conceived, or not. 

 

One thing is for sure, whatever they implement, it will cost them no votes at election time because farang can't vote, so on that basis, anything is possible. 

The change, enforcement of incoming funds isn't to target expats specifically.   If they wanted to do that, they could have done that a long time ago, by requiring a Thai tax statement at visa extension time.

 

It's targeted toward Thais, and the more well to do Thais, who do vote, and have influence.  If they are going to change anything in the future, I would expect it to create loopholes, for those HISo influential folks, to avoid paying taxes.  

Edited May 18 by KhunLA

[KhunHeineken]

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

One of the many problems with this long tax thread is that topics get debated and then forgotten and lost so necommers such as yourself try to reinvent the wheel. It was long ago very quickly determined that a with holding tax on remittances stands absolutely zero chance of being implemented. Banks do not know what remittances are assessable income nor which account holder is tax resident. Holiday makers who have Thai bank accounts will stop vacationing here if their holiday money is suddenly taxed and property buyers will stop buying property is the purchase money is taxed.

I am posting this to you as a member, and not a moderator, so I am not questioning moderation. 

 

The thread is 286 pages long.  Many members, including myself, will not / have not read every post on every page.  Those entering discussion on the thread at a later stage, or coming and going from the thread, are not trying to reinvent the wheel. 

 

Thread focus shifts.  New discussions start and evolve.  New information in the media comes to light which starts, or restarts new or old discussion.  Some latitude is needed on hot topics. 

 

Also, the more members that comment, the bigger the pool of collective thinking, which is basically, collaboration.  So an old discussion can attract a new idea.  

 

I agree certain parts of the current policy are doomed to fail, but where I differ from you is you seem to think because there is a "zero chance of being implemented" therefore the Thai government won't implement it.  I disagree.  They can, and may / will implement things that have a "zero chance of being implement"  and that's because I have little to no confidence in the Thai government to implement a comprehensive tax policy framework which incorporates the remitted funds of foreigners, with transparent legislation in which foreigners can legally navigate.  

 

Let's be honest, the Thai government tells foreigners to jump, and we ask how high.  They have us by the b*lls, and at the cost of no votes.  They can implement whatever shambles they like, when they want, how they want, whether it works, or not. 

 

Long queues, different interpretations from office to office, "tea money" and photo copies of the photo copies, agents advertising to "fix" it for a fee etc etc etc all exists now.  This policy may just be another layer of bureaucracy and earner for the Thai government from foreigners, with some "tea money" for RD staff.  Maybe they are seeking to nothing more than create another industry and revenue stream.

 

You are looking at it from the point it will not work.  I am looking at it from the point that they don't care if if doesn't work.  They will make it up on the fly, and if it turns only 1 baht, that's 1 baht more than they had before. 

 

Like I said in another post, they may have something up their sleeve, whether it works or not, but be prepared for a laugh early 2025, but there very well maybe some frustration, possibly anger, but that has to be discussed when the time comes.