Calls for clarification of new Tax regime which appears to target expat foreign income sources

[John Drake]

Where they going to poach money from next?

Edited September 26, 2023 by John Drake

[redwood1]

18 minutes ago, robertson468 said:

I disagree!  What we all need to do is to get our individual Consulates to clarify Thailand's intent on taxing overseas income for Foreignors.  Sadly, this announcement is typical of the way Thailand operates.  Make the announcement without any details having been worked out and any detailed clarification so that people who are affected can both study the change and take any action they consider is appropriate.  It would appear that some are considering leaving if this becomes law, which is understandable.

Your post makes no sense...

 

How can people...

 

so that people who are affected can both study the change and take any action they consider is appropriate

 

How can any one take action without details?

 

They cant..

 

Hey were going to do something to you that could wreck your life but we are not going to give you any details about what we are going to do..

 

Sounds a bit like bit like a psy-op.....

Edited September 26, 2023 by redwood1

[John Drake]

2 hours ago, DrAwesomee said:

Thaksin and his foreigner hating policies will become more and more apparent with times, he has already taken control from the background.

srettha may just be a puppet and thaksin the real puppet master. 

Already tired of seeing that <deleted> eatin' grin.

[John Drake]

If it's about remittances, then you could get a US tax refund only to have Thailand tax that, too. Or non-taxable things like a covid stimulus. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by John Drake

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, ChasingTheSun said:

Still zero clarification about the tax treatment of people living with retirement visas or other long term non-working visas.

 

in addition, how about clarity on the treatment of bringing in pre-existing capital, not income/interest/dividends/cap gains earned outside thailand while living in thailand?

 

 

 

This is a clear as u can get at this stage:

 

Foreign source income

Long Term Resident Visa Tax

 

But I am sure it can all end up somewhat different

[Schuimpge]

6 hours ago, actonion said:

Why not raise the threshold  so lower earning  Thais  pay income tax,...  my  (Thai) wife,  53 years old, has held an office job all her working life &  has never paid   income  tax

It already works that way. First 150k is tax free, then up to 300k is 5% etc. 35% tax applies only to income above 5m THB. So for a foreigner living off a pension, if you'd spend 100k THB/month, you would pay zero tax if your country has a double-tax agreement, if not, then your tax (without deductibles) would be 150,000 THB/year. (GBP 282.00 p/month)
If you're living of 50,000 THB p/month and you had to pay full tax, then your tax p/year would be 33,500 THB (GBP 63.00 per month).

[freeworld]

14 minutes ago, John Drake said:

Where they going to poach money from next?

Its not poaching.

 

Surely everyone want to pay tax where it is due so that it can be used by those working selflessly in govt positions to make life better for all of us.

[Thaindrew]

5 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Its not poaching.

 

Surely everyone want to pay tax where it is due so that it can be used by those working selflessly in govt positions to make life better for all of us.

can I contribute to a couple of submarines and putting a Thai on the moon ?

[Schuimpge]

9 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

This is a clear as u can get at this stage:

 

Foreign source income

Long Term Resident Visa Tax

 

But I am sure it can all end up somewhat different

Lol, yep.. as clear as mud, since LTR tax rules are now basically void given 'Foreign Source Income' instruction No. Por 161/2566 item number 2: "All rules, regulations, orders, responses to consultations or practices that are contrary to or inconsistent with this Instruction are cancelled;"

 

So any 'wealthy citizen or retiree or work-from-Thailand' person who just invested a million baht in an LTR on the basis of zero tax now needs to pay tax on funds brought into Thailand if not under double tax agreements. 

I see some nice mess coming up. Sure will kill off the elite visa scheme.

 

[Ben Zioner]

3 minutes ago, Schuimpge said:

Lol, yep.. as clear as mud, since LTR tax rules are now basically void given 'Foreign Source Income' instruction No. Por 161/2566 item number 2: "All rules, regulations, orders, responses to consultations or practices that are contrary to or inconsistent with this Instruction are cancelled;"

 

So any 'wealthy citizen or retiree or work-from-Thailand' person who just invested a million baht in an LTR on the basis of zero tax now needs to pay tax on funds brought into Thailand if not under double tax agreements. 

I see some nice mess coming up. Sure will kill off the elite visa scheme.

 

You are mixing up LTR and Elite.  LTR costs 50k for two times 5 years.

 

Also BOI will have several issues to "clarify" with the Tax people, no one can be sure of the outcome. They will have to chose between  extra Tax revenue or attracting affluent foreigners.

[Schuimpge]

17 minutes ago, Schuimpge said:

It already works that way. First 150k is tax free, then up to 300k is 5% etc. 35% tax applies only to income above 5m THB. So for a foreigner living off a pension, if you'd spend 100k THB/month, you would pay zero tax if your country has a double-tax agreement, if not, then your tax (without deductibles) would be 150,000 THB/year. (GBP 282.00 p/month)
If you're living of 50,000 THB p/month and you had to pay full tax, then your tax p/year would be 33,500 THB (GBP 63.00 per month).

Sorry, read your post again, it's the opposite from what I understood at first.

Lowering the starting  bracket for income tax you mean if I read correctly.

That would be really messy with very little extra revenue I think.

Let's assume very generously that you'd get 10 million people to pay the lowest tax-rate. 

10m x 33,500 THB ~ THB 29 billion. 

Attack the top 5% richest people in Thailand. That would instantly solve financial problems for the next 10 years..lol.

Another source would be non-registered businesses. There's hardly any person that sells stuff in markets and along the street that pays tax. Plenty of them make a decent living from that. Why do I have to register my business and they do not?

 

 

[StayinThailand2much]

4 hours ago, JimboB4 said:

"On September 15th, the Revenue Department in Thailand issued a clarification stating that from the 1st of January 2024, it planned to tax foreign income on all individuals in the kingdom who have been resident in the country for over 180 days.”

Still not clear, whether:

 

1. They intend to tax a second time already (in other countries) taxed income, and

2. What they define as 'income' (e.g. will they just slap a tax on all incoming funds, or not)?

3. If 2.) how to claim back such a tax if one doesn't have income in Thailand.

[Schuimpge]

4 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

You are mixing up LTR and Elite.  LTR costs 50k for two times 5 years.

 

Also BOI will have several issues to "clarify" with the Tax people, no one can be sure of the outcome. They will have to chose between  extra Tax revenue or attracting affluent foreigners.

You're right..I copied that info from the links given by the OP. They used LTR-visa, which I copied, and I assume (from their wording), that they mean elite-visa.. but it's 2 different visa.

[StayinThailand2much]

49 minutes ago, John Drake said:

Where they going to poach money from next?

My bet is on an 'exit tax'; you want to leave the country - pay 20% of your declared funds in Thailand first... 

[John Drake]

1 minute ago, StayinThailand2much said:

My bet is on an 'exit tax'; you want to leave the country - pay 20% of your declared funds in Thailand first... 

Fine with me. I just won't leave.

[StayinThailand2much]

4 minutes ago, John Drake said:

Fine with me. I just won't leave.

Not even for a holiday?

[LikeItHot]

5 hours ago, Walker88 said:

The only way the US would reciprocate is if trump won again and wanted to build a tower on Sukhumvit.

 

The US is not going to supply Thailand with capital gains data, TBill income, dividends, etc.

Disclosure gets written into the law.  I have Italian and US citizenship.  If I stay over 183 days in Italy I am a tax resident and need to pay tax in all foreign income including Roth IRAs and a tax free government pension.  If you want to break the laws of a country you live in as a guest not a citizen be my guest.  They could very easily add your home country tax statements to the list of visa extension requirements.  But you go ahead and outsmart them while making it harder for everyone.

[John Drake]

1 minute ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Not even for a holiday?

Got everything I need right here. Haven't left since 2016. Would like to go to Laos. But can get a similar experience in Thailand. I won't leave.

 

[Schuimpge]

What I'm really curious about is: With an offshore account, using a debit or credit card, how will they track/tax that?

Speculating here, if I pull cash from an ATM with a foreign debit-card, pretty sure that banks can only track transactions linked to their customer's accounts because of security measures around ATM card use. So when a foreigner using an ATM card from a foreign bank gets cash from say BBL ATM, then the ATM establishes a link with the foreigner's bank and only records the cash withdrawal, but not the account-details from the foreigner.

Credit-cards are even worse I guess...

[aldriglikvid]

1) In the earlier reporting I read an article/screeenshot in some thread here, that Capital Gains & Dividends already taxed abroad in one of the countries with a DTA would be exempt from this new legislation. Is that still the case? 

2) How till this be enforced, in practice? Many of us, me at least, don't declare any tax in this country and thus don't carry a tax number. Will they simply put a % tax on all the international transfers into my Thai bank account? It seems like a big undertaking, operationally, for a short set of time. 

[Dionigi]

7 hours ago, paddypower said:

please let me know which countries where you can have investment income, but do not need to file a domestic tax return.  ?

We all know that major companies get away with paying no income tax what ever country they operate in. The tax rules are made with loopholes that these companies use to ensure that there are no liabilities for their tax. Invest in these companies that operate in one country but are registered in a tax haven and you have no taxation. It is this money which can then be brought back to Thailand which, at present, has no taxation. I'm talking major money not Joe Averages small investments.

[Thaindrew]

57 minutes ago, Schuimpge said:

Lol, yep.. as clear as mud, since LTR tax rules are now basically void given 'Foreign Source Income' instruction No. Por 161/2566 item number 2: "All rules, regulations, orders, responses to consultations or practices that are contrary to or inconsistent with this Instruction are cancelled;"

 

So any 'wealthy citizen or retiree or work-from-Thailand' person who just invested a million baht in an LTR on the basis of zero tax now needs to pay tax on funds brought into Thailand if not under double tax agreements. 

I see some nice mess coming up. Sure will kill off the elite visa scheme.

 

I'd assume a Royal Decree over-rules Por 161/2566 item number 2, but as always a big lack of clarity - talking to official LTR agents today they still believe its tax exempt but nothing is certain at this stage.   

[pp00]

12 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

I do not care who is in the govt at this Point I would prefer Thailand get 100 percent of my income taxes instead of the US.

 

The failed state that confiscates a huge chunk of my wages automatically at the source, wasting it on who knows what.

Thailand is not a failed state??? It's ok to not like the US but you are talking about supercorrupt Thailand and its moron leaders...what is 3. world  Thailand of not a failed state???

[Ben Zioner]

28 minutes ago, Schuimpge said:

What I'm really curious about is: With an offshore account, using a debit or credit card, how will they track/tax that?

Speculating here, if I pull cash from an ATM with a foreign debit-card, pretty sure that banks can only track transactions linked to their customer's accounts because of security measures around ATM card use. So when a foreigner using an ATM card from a foreign bank gets cash from say BBL ATM, then the ATM establishes a link with the foreigner's bank and only records the cash withdrawal, but not the account-details from the foreigner.

Credit-cards are even worse I guess...

There would  be no problem for foreign banks to submit lists of cash withdrawals made in any given country. They could provide personal details such as Names D.O.B, address, etc. I my case i know that they wouldn't have my passport number. I would say that "forgetting" cash withdrawals and credit card bills on foreign banks may work for a while, but they will get their systems working at some stage and then the might track us back up to January 1, 2024. But the best thing to do is probably to fly the Singapore once or twice a year and get all the cash you can. My UBS cards have pretty high limits. Yet I shouldn't forget that the USD 20000 limit is likely to change just as well as the rules on foreign remittance.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[Cabradelmar]

7 hours ago, youngexpat said:

Schwab atm card for the win

It's a debit card so is still considered a remittance for Thai tax purposes

[smedly]

2 hours ago, pedro01 said:

As a non-resident, you are not required to pay taxes on earnings in the UK. That means anything you get paid in the UK is not taxable. You shouldn't be paying tax on your pension.

rubbish

[Cabradelmar]

7 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Kind of curious how Thailand expects to get access to US or other non-Thai bank records, transactions that result in Capital Gains, other passive income, etc.?

 

The honesty method?

 

"Hi, Thai tax authority. I just sold my Hampton's summer home for $38 million, after buying it in 2008 for $7 million. How much of that gain do you want?"

It's complicated. But the first step Thailand took was to be come a signatory on CRS. They just started reporting this month. They will also have access to other signatories reporting to the extent the accounts belong to tax residents of Thailand. 

[tlcwaterfall]

1 hour ago, Schuimpge said:

It already works that way. First 150k is tax free, then up to 300k is 5% etc. 35% tax applies only to income above 5m THB. So for a foreigner living off a pension, if you'd spend 100k THB/month, you would pay zero tax if your country has a double-tax agreement, if not, then your tax (without deductibles) would be 150,000 THB/year. (GBP 282.00 p/month)
If you're living of 50,000 THB p/month and you had to pay full tax, then your tax p/year would be 33,500 THB (GBP 63.00 per month).

How did you work that tax amount out?  I am struggling to work my potential tax obligation out.

[chickenslegs]

6 minutes ago, tlcwaterfall said:

How did you work that tax amount out?  I am struggling to work my potential tax obligation out.

I don't know how @Schuimpge did it, but I found a Thai income tax calculator - here ... https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation

This includes deductibles.

Edited September 26, 2023 by chickenslegs

[Cabradelmar]

If you are married to a Thai or have a "moral obligation" to support a thai (and you have complete trust) look into gifting. It's quite possibly to avoid paying taxes on those remittances (almost entirely).

 

And for all you US folks... do your FBAR reporting because Thailand just signed up to CRS.