New "Income" tax law 2024

[timendres]

17 minutes ago, huberthammer said:

I am pretty sure if you stay here 180+ days for 2 years and then stay away for 1 year and get back they will go after you and aside from the huge bureaucratic hassle there is a good chance they will hit you for the tax anyway unless you show that you were declared a tax citizen elsewhere and did declare a tax return. Don't forget, they have the upper hand. If they think something is fishey they will block your accounts and might even collect the passport until all is sorted. 

Will never happen.

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, huberthammer said:

sounds like a great idea aside from the Thai government interpreting the rules as they see fit. I read similar comments when it came to showing  bank balances for immigration and unfortunately they did not see it as the optimistic chap saw it. At the end they are in a much stronger position than us on these issues.

 

I am pretty sure if you stay here 180+ days for 2 years and then stay away for 1 year and get back they will go after you and aside from the huge bureaucratic hassle there is a good chance they will hit you for the tax anyway unless you show that you were declared a tax citizen elsewhere and did declare a tax return. Don't forget, they have the upper hand. If they think something is fishey they will block your accounts and might even collect the passport until all is sorted. 

 

I sort of agree with you, but the basic premise of Tax Law in Thailand is if you spend < 180 days in-country in any one Tax/Calendar year then you are not Tax Resident & you are not liable/eligible to even have to file a Tax Return unless you earn an income in Thailand.

 

 

So if I leave here at the end of 2023 & pop back for a short (< 179 days) holiday in 2024, Thailand has no claims under it's own Tax regulations.

 

Might cause me problems in the UK (I'm not Tax Resident there either) but trust my accountant there to do my UK Tax return (The only place I get any form of income from) more than I would anywhere else.  

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[MartinL]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:02 PM, topt said:

Just to make you feel worse you should be aware that the DTA between UK and Thailand specifically excludes pensions unless government (civil service).

 

So in theory we could end up being taxed twice depending on how this plays out. The state pension does not count as govt. either .......

 

See Thailand on page 34 on the linked document and look across to note 4 on the far right.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

There's so much information and counter-information in these threads that it's becoming increasingly less useful to read them.

 

The following isn't directed at you, topt. It's just me letting off a little and not really expecting answers.

 

My only income is from UK private, occupational and state pensions. None of these, according to this attachment, is immune from double taxation under the UK-Thailand DTT! Why would only UK government pensions be immune when Australians and Americans here say (and I assume they're correct) that ALL their pensions are immune? Thailand clearly isn't averse to sparing all pensions from double taxation if it's requested.

 

Subject to UK tax AND Thai tax with no double taxation relief - it looks like the UK government did a good job with the Thai DTT! With that AND frozen pensions ...........

 

There's a 60 k฿ personal allowance, 150 k฿ zero-rated for income tax and, according to a Pricewaterhouse Cooper Thailand booklet that's been posted in these threads, a further 190 k฿ allowance for those over 65. That booklet implies that the 190 k฿ applies to all over 65 but elsewhere I've read that it's for WORKING over 65s only. Or maybe it's instead of the 60 k฿ figure. Which is it?

 

Nothing is clear here and reading these threads usually only muddies the waters further.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by MartinL

[federicoP]

I do hope that many of the DTA of various countries are conceived like that one between my country (Italy) and Thailand.
In my case I received the pension from my original country without any deduction, and I pay the taxes here in Thailand.

Moreover the tax in Thailand is lower than the tax that I should pay in Italy.
Before crying better to check the DTA applicable to each personal situation, maybe it could be very interesting .....

[MangoKorat]

Without reading all of the posts here - due to lack of time, I would just like to point out to those who are panicking about possibly having to pay tax next year - there are currently some concessions depending on your circumstances.

 

These rates may have changed (such allowances usually go up) but in 2022:

 

Your personal allowance = 60,000 baht

If married and your wife has no income (which of course most don't ????) another 60,000

If you support a child under 25 who is studying at a recognised institution or is a minor - another 30,000 for each child + an additional 30,000 each child tax deductible allowance for 2nd child
onwards who born in/after 2018.

 

You can also claim allowances if you are supporting your wife's (Thai) parents, disabled people and various other allowances - see here:

 

https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/xx/pdf/2023/01/TIES-Thailand.pdf

[Robin]

Surely this is going o be the end of Thailand as a retirement destination?

Who is going to retire to a country where you cannot bring in money from you home county

Sell your house at home, probably pay no tax on that money (as in UK)  and then pay 30% tx on that in Thailand.  No Thanks!!

[deejai33]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:47 AM, Mike Teavee said:

 

I'm simply going to do 1 year in every 3 as a non-Tax resident in Thailand & bring enough money over that year to live on for the 3 years... 

Yes, I've thought of that plan too.

 

I already have a few months a year out of thailand, holidays.

 

Have some longer holidays out of thailand totalling about 6+ months every couple of years.

 

This has an expense associated with it ofcourse.  But might be funded by less thai tax paid.  But maybe not.

 

Needs thinking through.  I like thailand.  Could be a worst-case scenario plan.  Might better to pay up ?

Edited October 5, 2023 by deejai33

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, deejai33 said:

Yes, I've thought of that plan too.

 

I already have a few months a year out of thailand, holidays.

 

Have some longer holidays out of thailand totalling about 6+ months every couple of years.

 

This has an expense associated with it ofcourse.  But might be funded by less thai tax paid.  But maybe not.

 

Needs thinking through.  I like thailand.  Could be a worst-case scenario plan.  Might better to pay up ?

I am thinking along the same lines. 

Paying up wouldn't be a problem,  I can afford it.

But wasting 3 or 4 months a year getting documents translated,  stamped,  legalized,  notarized and authorized for the RD...

I might spend these 3 months outside ofThailand,  preferably during smog season.

Adding these 3-4 months to my yearly holiday of 2-3 months.

[Neeranam]

On 9/27/2023 at 1:42 PM, MangoKorat said:

Over the years I've seen lots of new laws proposed on various subjects relating to foreigners/immigration - very few of them are ever heard of again and those that are, are usually a watered down version.  I'm just gonna sit back and wait to see if this one ends up the same.

This proposed law is not about foreigners in particular. 

[MangoKorat]

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

This proposed law is not about foreigners in particular. 

But we are foreigners - I doubt anyone here is too worried about the new law's effects on Thai's.

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

But we are foreigners - I doubt anyone here is too worried about the new law's effects on Thai's.

Actually, I'm Thai so I am worried as I have a considerable amount coming in from abroad, including my work. 

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

Actually, I'm Thai so I am worried as I have a considerable amount coming in from abroad, including my work. 

Then you should pay tax on it, like everyone else has to.

[RupertIII]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:23 PM, MartinL said:

 

There's a 60 k฿ personal allowance, 150 k฿ zero-rated for income tax and, according to a Pricewaterhouse Cooper Thailand booklet that's been posted in these threads, a further 190 k฿ allowance for those over 65. That booklet implies that the 190 k฿ applies to all over 65 but elsewhere I've read that it's for WORKING over 65s only. Or maybe it's instead of the 60 k฿ figure. Which is it?

Sherrings also mention the 190k on their website.

 

The following, which I have copied from the RD's website (https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/220364guide91.pdf) for the tax year 2020, appears to confirm the 190K allowance regardless of employment status, at least for spouse so I assume also for the taxpayer.

 

Page 1 of ภ.ง.ด.91 – Taxpayer’s Details

Taxpayer’s Details

In the Taxpayer Identification section, fill in the following information:

 Your 13-digit Taxpayer Identification Number

 Your date of birth.

 Your title and first name (in capital letters)

 Your surname (in capital letters)

 Your trade name/company name

 Your current mailing address

 Your business web address (if applicable)

 Check the ‘Regular Filing’ box if this form is your first filing in this tax year, or check

the ‘Additional Filing’ box if this form is an adjustment or a supplement filing.

Spouse’s Details

If you have a spouse, please provide your spouse’s details in this part of the form:

 Spouse’s 13-digit Taxpayer Identification Number

 Spouse’s date of birth (If your spouse is 65 years of age or older, attach the “Income

Exemption Entitlement Form” for income exemption up to 190,000 baht), title and

first name (in capital letters)

 Spouse’s surname (in capital letters)

 Check the box that is applicable to your spouse under ‘Marital Status’

 Check the box that is applicable to your spouse under ‘Filing Status’:

1. If your spouse has income and is filing jointly, check box (1).

2. If your spouse has income and is filing separately, check box (2).

3. If your spouse has no income, check box (3)

 

[Bazle]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:02 PM, topt said:

Just to make you feel worse you should be aware that the DTA between UK and Thailand specifically excludes pensions unless government (civil service).

 

So in theory we could end up being taxed twice depending on how this plays out. The state pension does not count as govt. either .......

 

See Thailand on page 34 on the linked document and look across to note 4 on the far right.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

A copy of the actual treaty is available here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

Note Article 23(3):

" .... United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income."

[KannikaP]

On 9/27/2023 at 7:41 AM, jaideedave said:

I am in a similar situation as yourself.I pay no income tax on my pensions because it is below a certain threshold also. I won,t be able to prove that I have paid tax already.I have a letter from the tax dept stating about the tax exemption.  Wait and see I suppose.

In UK, the tax threshold is £12570, under which you do pay income tax but at 0%. That's the argument I shall use.

[topt]

16 hours ago, Bazle said:

A copy of the actual treaty is available here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

Note Article 23(3):

" .... United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income."

Not sure what the relevance is of the quote relative to pensions? 

Which is why I quoted the digest in the first place as easier to understand.

[Bazle]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:02 PM, topt said:

So in theory we could end up being taxed twice depending on how this plays out. The state pension does not count as govt. either .......

 

17 hours ago, Bazle said:

Note Article 23(3):

" .... United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income."

1 hour ago, topt said:

Not sure what the relevance is of the quote relative to pensions? 

Which is why I quoted the digest in the first place as easier to understand.

You said that a pension could end up being taxed twice. I pointed out that the Thais are required to give a credit for UK tax, so that wouldn't be the case.

 

[Mike Lister]

If it helps anyone, US Social Security payments can only be taxed by the US, by Tax Treaty, they are forbidden from being taxed in the receiving country (aka Thailand). 

 

I have been declaring UK and US pension income on a Thai tax return for the past two years. My US SSc income represents excluded income so it doesn't even get shown on the Thai tax return (guidance per the Revenue Head office in the city where I live). My US State pension payment income is capable of being taxed here but the Thai Revenue allowances and deductions mean that it isn't. I also file a UK tax return because I have UK rental income as well as UK State pension. I try to pay a small amount of UK tax every year, under 100 Pounds, jut to demonstrate that I am in fact a UK tax payer. I am tax resident in Thailand for 365 days each year.

[topt]

16 minutes ago, Bazle said:

 

You said that a pension could end up being taxed twice. I pointed out that the Thais are required to give a credit for UK tax, so that wouldn't be the case.

 

You may be correct - but then why does the digest of DTA's (published in 2018) specifically state that no relief is available? 

Note 4 re Thailand DTA -

Quote

Treaty does not include an article dealing with DT-Company Non-Government pensions. Also, no relief for State Pension or ‘trivial commutation lump sum’.

The header column specifically says No relief as well.

 

I hope you are right and if this moves ahead it may come down to an individual Thai revenue officer's interpretation...............

[topt]

Apologies but can you clarify the following please - 

21 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I have been declaring UK and US pension income on a Thai tax return for the past two years.

You then talk about your US state pension being below the Thai limit for taxation but what about when you add the UK state pension? Surely that would bring to an overall level that would be taxed or am I misreading something?

 

Also curious why you decided to declare initially as most foreigners don't appear to? 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, topt said:

Apologies but can you clarify the following please - 

You then talk about your US state pension being below the Thai limit for taxation but what about when you add the UK state pension? Surely that would bring to an overall level that would be taxed or am I misreading something?

 

Also curious why you decided to declare initially as most foreigners don't appear to? 

Sorry, there is an error in my previous post. The third sentence that begins, "My US State pension...", should read, "My UK State pension". 

 

"I have been declaring UK and US pension income on a Thai tax return for the past two years. My US SSc income represents excluded income so it doesn't even get shown on the Thai tax return (guidance per the Revenue Head office in the city where I live). My US UK State pension payment income is capable of being taxed here but the Thai Revenue allowances and deductions mean that it isn't. I also file a UK tax return because I have UK rental income as well as UK State pension. I try to pay a small amount of UK tax every year, under 100 Pounds, jut to demonstrate that I am in fact a UK tax payer. I am tax resident in Thailand for 365 days each year".

 

Just to recap: the US SSc income is totally disregarded for Thai tax purposes whilst the UK State pension income is under the UK personal Allowance AND just within the Thai deductions and allowances.

 

Regarding your question as to why I declared my pension in prior years:

 

When the banks started to withhold tax on nearly all savings income, I thought I could see the writing on the wall. I also knew that if I wanted to file a Thai tax return to reclaim that withholding tax, I was legally obliged to declare my pension income received in Thailand also, otherwise I would have filed an incomplete and fraudulent tax return.

 

 

[topt]

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sorry, there is an error in my previous post. The third sentence that begins, "My US State pension...", should read, "My UK State pension". 

Thanks for the clarification and answer. 

[soalbundy]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:10 PM, Presnock said:

I too agree we should wait until we see the official announcement of implementation of this law.  But if one makes any money via interest on savings or income from outside Thailand, then unless the persoin can show officially that they are required to pay in one of the countries with tax agreement with Thailand then one might have to pay taxes on that income even though it might not meet the taxable criteria in one's home country.  WE just have to wait to see what they really think that they are going to get from the long-stayers. Hopefully they will realize it is an effort in futility if they have to work with all the foreing governments.

Yesterday I received my confirmation of income from the German consulate, the letter addressed not only the IO but also the inland revenue although I hadn't mentioned anything about taxation to them. The paragraph for the inland revenue stated that they assume that Mr xxxx wil be exempted from taxation due to the double taxation treaty between Germany and Thailand. So Germany goes the extra mile for their pensioners, I doubt that Brexit Britain will do the same for hers.

[moogradod]

23 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Yesterday I received my confirmation of income from the German consulate, the letter addressed not only the IO but also the inland revenue although I hadn't mentioned anything about taxation to them. The paragraph for the inland revenue stated that they assume that Mr xxxx wil be exempted from taxation due to the double taxation treaty between Germany and Thailand. So Germany goes the extra mile for their pensioners, I doubt that Brexit Britain will do the same for hers.

Did you get this letter because you have requested it or did they send this by themselves ?

 

I have as well a German passport and I will have the next (and first) contact with the embassy or consulate here when I need to request a new passport in a few years. My current passport was issued by the German embassy in Switzerland from where I receive as well a state pension directly remitted to my Thai bank account. I have not been living in Germany since more than 50 years. and have therefore as well no income from there. I stay here since several years. I am as well not required to pay tax on this social security pension in Switzerland because I left this country definitely.

[Sheryl]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:20 AM, Tom Vanderlay said:

Hi,
Just wondering if anyone knows whether money already in a bank account here in Thailand is subject to this tax?

And will all money transfered into Thailand, regardless of source (even savings from overseas) be subject to this tax?

 

Does having a double tax treaty have any effect on this (I am a tax resident of Thailand - staying here more than 180 days per year.  I am required to file income taxes in my home country but always pay nothing as my income is below the threshold)?
 
Also, does anyone have a link to the law in English?  Thanks

1. No. It applies only to money brought in after 1 January.

 

2. Unclear at this time

 

3. Yes terms of DTAs apply. Read yours carefully. If you are  from US, US Social Security is exempt from taxation in Thailand. Doesn't matter if your income threshold is such that you end up paying no tax when you file in US.  I believe  (not sure) same is true for government pensions.  But other income streams (private pensions, interest, dividends etc) are potentially taxable in Thailand depending on where under the terms of the DTA you are considered resident and those terms are complicated.  (US citizens spending 180 days or more in Thailajd are in a unique situation in that they are  tax residents undrr the kaws of  both countries,  so complex provisions of the DTA come into play. Diffferent for most other nationalities.

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, moogradod said:

Did you get this letter because you have requested it or did they send this by themselves ?

 

I have as well a German passport and I will have the next (and first) contact with the embassy or consulate here when I need to request a new passport in a few years. My current passport was issued by the German embassy in Switzerland from where I receive as well a state pension directly remitted to my Thai bank account. I have not been living in Germany since more than 50 years. and have therefore as well no income from there. I stay here since several years. I am as well not required to pay tax on this social security pension in Switzerland because I left this country definitely.

I'm British but spent most of my working life in Germany so I get a German pension. I asked for the letter of confirmation of my pension as I do every year for the visa extension. The last paragraph concerning taxation they did without me asking for it so I presume it is a standard paragraph for recipients of German pensions. I don't pay tax in Germany, or anywhere and I hope this continues, whether the paragraph helps or not remains to be seen but it at least shows the German concern regarding taxation. You would obviously need confirmation of income from the Swiss authorities and not Germany.

Edited October 7, 2023 by soalbundy

[moogradod]

33 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I'm British but spent most of my working life in Germany so I get a German pension. I asked for the letter of confirmation of my pension as I do every year for the visa extension. The last paragraph concerning taxation they did without me asking for it so I presume it is a standard paragraph for recipients of German pensions. I don't pay tax in Germany, or anywhere and I hope this continues, whether the paragraph helps or not remains to be seen but it at least shows the German concern regarding taxation. You would obviously need confirmation of income from the Swiss authorities and not Germany.

Thanks. So your case is "nearly" the same as mine. Exept for the small detail that you are British and I have learned here that the UK has special regulations. But as you have never paid even tax over there, your case should be exactly the same I suppose. I do not pay tax in Switzerland anymore since I have officially left the country forever and I am not a Swiss citizen as well. Not sure about their willingness to issue a letter similar to yours although Switzerland and Thailand have as well a DTA.

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, moogradod said:

Thanks. So your case is "nearly" the same as mine. Exept for the small detail that you are British and I have learned here that the UK has special regulations. But as you have never paid even tax over there, your case should be exactly the same I suppose. I do not pay tax in Switzerland anymore since I have officially left the country forever and I am not a Swiss citizen as well. Not sure about their willingness to issue a letter similar to yours although Switzerland and Thailand have as well a DTA.

That would be a matter for you and your Swiss pension provider but it is highly likely that they too would issue a similar statement when providing a pension confirmation letter, however some countries, the UK for instance, do not, you would know from past experience whether the Swiss do or not.

[MartinL]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:02 PM, topt said:

Just to make you feel worse you should be aware that the DTA between UK and Thailand specifically excludes pensions unless government (civil service).

 

So in theory we could end up being taxed twice depending on how this plays out. The state pension does not count as govt. either .......

 

See Thailand on page 34 on the linked document and look across to note 4 on the far right.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

Referring to p34; Under the columns 'Government Pensions' and 'Personal Allowances',  it says "N&R" - National and Resident. 

 

My interpretation of this is that one must be of Thai nationality and resident in Thailand to benefit from relief and allowances. 

 

How do others see this? While I can read and interpret an engineering spec., this sort of language and its interpretation just gives me a headache.

Edited October 8, 2023 by MartinL

[topt]

1 hour ago, MartinL said:

Referring to p34; Under the columns 'Government Pensions' and 'Personal Allowances',  it says "N&R" - National and Resident. 

 

My interpretation of this is that one must be of Thai nationality and resident in Thailand to benefit from relief and allowances. 

 

How do others see this? While I can read and interpret an engineering spec., this sort of language and its interpretation just gives me a headache.

If you look at clause 19 in the actual agreement (in red on the digest under the heading you mention)

it states 

Quote

(2) (a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State. (b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State.

So my reading (which could of course be wrong!) -

UK citizen receiving a govt pension can only be taxed in UK even if tax resident in Thailand.

However a Thai citizen who for some reason is receiving a UK govt. pension but tax resident in Thailand get's taxed in Thailand..........