Transgenderism 'a mental health disorder'

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Eleftheros said:

but I guess that attitude puts me in a minority round here.

I don't think you're as much in the minority, it's just that there's an extremely vocal minority on here that believe they have the right answer and anyone who disagrees must be stupid, or some kind of phobe.  Pick a topic...  Trump, Thaksin, Russia, Putin, Thai maleness, you name it, and I think most of us can predict who's coming out of the woodwork to shout down anyone holding "the wrong view".  Mostly, why bother arguing with zealots?

 

Here's a great read for anyone who's really interested.  An interview with the former president of UPATH and/or WPATH, who's definitely pro-trans (25 years ago at age 45).  But she has some deep concerns about the quality and thoroughness of the diagnostic process, along with 1t Amendment concerns about stifling discussion.

 

https://quillette.com/2022/01/06/a-transgender-pioneer-explains-why-she-stepped-down-from-uspath-and-wpath/

 

"...submitted a co-authored op-ed to the New York Times “warning that many transgender healthcare providers were treating kids recklessly.”  “That is going to earn me a lot of criticism from some colleagues, but given what I see [in regard to teenage girls transitioning without proper safeguards], my experience as a psychologist treating gender-variant youth makes me worried that decisions will be made that will later be regretted by those making them,” 

 

That's the back street industry I referenced, but others quickly shouted me down on.

 

Also some good links, including to a book on Amazon.  Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters.   Interesting to read the book reviews.  One gave it the lowest score possible, the others praising the book.  Kinda like here...

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by impulse

[Eleftheros]

13 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

I am sure if I said I identify as an Lion people would think I am crazy and I see precious little difference in a person who believes themself to be a gender other than defined by their chromosones

To identify as a lion is considerably less dysfunctional than people who believe they can magically become the opposite sex.

 

After all, if you identify as a lion, you might have the good fortune to find a girl who identifies as a lioness, and you can get together and have kittens, or cubs, or whatever the correct term is.

 

If you try to become the opposite sex through hormones and surgery, you can't even do that, as you have been turned into some sort of Frankenstein creature with some bits chopped off and other bits glued on.

[Danderman123]

20 hours ago, FruitPudding said:

Totally sick and demented. 

 

But "The medical professionals know best," they say.

 

I wonder if extreme left wokies will be saying the same thing if/when the medical community stops "affirming" their gender ideology and instead start treating it as a mental illness. 

 

Will they be like, "The doctors are right, trans is a mental health issue," I wonder? ???? 

There is nothing wrong with an adult electing to have trans surgery. Do you disagree?

[Danderman123]

The logical conclusion of the positions of some posters is that being gay is likewise a mental illness.

 

It's slippery slope time.

[johnnybangkok]

17 hours ago, Eleftheros said:

Well, I'm glad you agree with the premise in the OP that transgenderism is a mental disorder, which is what causes people to commit suicide, assuming they are not in terminal illness or unbearable physical pain.

 

The British judicial system describes it as " ... took his life while the balance of his mind was disturbed." A good description.

 

Undoubtedly there are "professionals who know much more than" I do, but that doesn't mean their recommendations are going to help, or are even offered in good faith.

 

Take the horrible story of the Tavistock Clinic in the UK, which was belatedly closed down for a litany of medical malpractices too extensive to detail, but notably including the indiscriminate use of the dangerous puberty blocker Lupron.

 

When reading accounts of how medical clinics like Tavistock will mutilate thousands of vulnerable children for personal gain,  I feel a mixture of nausea and anger, but I guess that attitude puts me in a minority round here.

I think I have been consistent in my posts calling gender dysphoria a mental disorder. I'm not sure why you are questioning this.

Your thoughts on Tavistock are somewhat disingenuos (as per usual). It is true that Tavistoc had it's issues but one of them wasn't 'medical malpractices'. However, there is a good argument to saying there was too much  pressure put on staff to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach" but there were other reasons for the closure to include:-

• The service was struggling to deal with spiralling waiting lists
• It was not keeping "routine and consistent" data on its patients
• Health staff felt under pressure to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach"
• Once patients are identified as having gender-related distress, other healthcare issues they had, such as being neurodivergent, "can sometimes be overlooked"   https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62335665

And again with your sensationalism of 'mutilate thousands of vulnerable children for personal gain'. Firstly, Tavistock was a NHS facility so there's no 'personal gain' and secondly, a child in England CANNOT get a sex change before they are 18. This is the law and no amount of you trying to imply otherwise will change this FACT. This was demonstrated in a court case brought by Keira Bell who was critical of being prescribed puberty blockers aged 16, then testosterone shots a year later BUT didn't have a double mastectomy until the age of 20, WHEN SHE WAS AN ADULT.

There were undoubtedly issues at Tavistock (mostly in connection to the sheer numbers they had to deal with) but there was also plenty of people supporting the centre with one saying her son "received excellent service from Tavistock," but added 'having only one clinic to serve England and Wales has been failing children and their families'.

You keep trying to push this narrative of children being 'mutilated' when it simply isn't true. Due care and dilligence is obvioulsy a point (highlighted by Tavistock) but isn't that the same for almost every medical service on the planet? There are children out there desperately needing specialist help with this mental disorder but it can't be done when people like yourself keeping bringing up crass sensationalism to imply a reality that doesn't exist other than in your own head. 

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

16 hours ago, impulse said:

That's the back street industry I referenced, but others quickly shouted me down on.

 

 

 

No one is 'shouting you down'. This is a forum for debate. You are being debated. 

If that hurts your sensitivities so much then may I suggest you retreat to an echo chamber of your choice, full of people who hang off your every word.  

[youreavinalaff]

16 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

The logical conclusion of the positions of some posters is that being gay is likewise a mental illness.

 

It's slippery slope time.

There is a difference between mental illness, mental health and a mental condition.

 

That seems to be the issue. Posters are confusing the 3.

[Danderman123]

4 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

There is a difference between mental illness, mental health and a mental condition.

 

That seems to be the issue. Posters are confusing the 3.

I got nothing.

[Danderman123]

I think everyone here agrees children should not have gender reversal surgery, but informed adults should be able to have the surgery.

 

Next question?

[TimeMachine]

10 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

I think everyone here agrees children should not have gender reversal surgery, but informed adults should be able to have the surgery.

 

Next question?

I'm a bit weird. I think a mother can do to her child whatever she wants without others interfering. It's hers. She created it in her belly. 

 

[Hanaguma]

Just saw an awful story about a trans woman. She wants to get a uterus transplant, for the sole purpose of being able to have an abortion.  Mental health disorder? I would say so....

 

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/08/29/no-transwomen-should-not-have-abortions/

[impulse]

On 10/3/2023 at 12:44 PM, johnnybangkok said:

No one is 'shouting you down'. This is a forum for debate. You are being debated. 

If that hurts your sensitivities so much then may I suggest you retreat to an echo chamber of your choice, full of people who hang off your every word.  

You're right.  He didn't shout me down.  He called me a liar.  Hardly a debate.

 

[GarryP]

On 9/28/2023 at 9:04 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

What ‘insidious nonsense’

 

Transgenderism is widely accepted in Thailand.

 

There is no ‘insidious nonsense’.

I rarely agree with you, but you are right on this. My niece is a transgender teacher in a government school. I also live close to a school in north Kalasin and can confirm that there are quite a number of trans students there.    

[placeholder]

On 10/2/2023 at 7:24 PM, Eleftheros said:

To identify as a lion is considerably less dysfunctional than people who believe they can magically become the opposite sex.

 

After all, if you identify as a lion, you might have the good fortune to find a girl who identifies as a lioness, and you can get together and have kittens, or cubs, or whatever the correct term is.

 

If you try to become the opposite sex through hormones and surgery, you can't even do that, as you have been turned into some sort of Frankenstein creature with some bits chopped off and other bits glued on.

What I haven't seen from you or other anti-trans posters is any reference to the science. There's a joke among sexologists that goes like this:

What the biggest sex organ in your body?

Your brain.

So what does actual research on the brain tell us about people who claim that they are transgender? That said, I'm sure you've looked into this issue had have just forgotten integrate that information into your views on transgenderism.

Edited October 4, 2023 by placeholder

[Eleftheros]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

What I haven't seen from you or other anti-trans posters is any reference to the science. There's a joke among sexologists that goes like this:

What the biggest sex organ in your body?

Your brain.

So what does actual research on the brain tell us about people who claim that they are transgender? That said, I'm sure you've looked into this issue had have just forgotten integrate that information into your views on transgenderism.

Yes, you're right. The old jokes are the best ones.

 

With the best will in the world, and with my best diversity, equity and inclusion hat on, I can't figure out what point you are trying to make.

 

If by "anti-trans" you mean opposing the chemical and physical mutilation of minors, then I certainly fit your definition, along with detesting the large and rapidly growing industry which urges and promotes those procedures and politicians who legislate in favor of these procedures.

 

In that case, I am proud to be "anti-trans", and I wonder how the supporters of that industry can possibly feel similar pride in their stance.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Eleftheros said:

Yes, you're right. The old jokes are the best ones.

 

With the best will in the world, and with my best diversity, equity and inclusion hat on, I can't figure out what point you are trying to make.

 

If by "anti-trans" you mean opposing the chemical and physical mutilation of minors, then I certainly fit your definition, along with detesting the large and rapidly growing industry which urges and promotes those procedures and politicians who legislate in favor of these procedures.

 

In that case, I am proud to be "anti-trans", and I wonder how the supporters of that industry can possibly feel similar pride in their stance.

‘Industry’?

[Chomper Higgot]

Someone needs to ask Vivek (pump and dump) Ramaswamy a simple question, preferably when he’s running his mouth in a primary debate.

 

‘If you believe transgenderism to be a mental health disorder’ and children in particular to be ‘at risk’, do you support increasing Federal spending on mental health services and to a level that every single child suffering transgender issues receives the professional mental health care they need?

 

It’s a question those who support Vivek’s non medical professional view might wish to engage.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Eleftheros]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

‘Industry’?

My apologies, I didn't realize you needed the word sourced.

 

Quote

 

a distinct group of productive or profit-making enterprises

the banking industry

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Eleftheros said:

My apologies, I didn't realize you needed the word sourced.

 

 

I don’t need ‘the word sourced’ I need you to go back and check the talk track you are being fed and regurgitating to ensure you know what it is you are required to be ranting about.

[Eleftheros]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I need you to go back and check the talk track you are being fed and regurgitating

Don't judge other people by your own standards.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Eleftheros said:

Don't judge other people by your own standards.

Irony lives.

[herfiehandbag]

The whole transgender business is, quite frankly, a complete mess.

 

I have a good friend who is trans. I don't understand what goes through her mind, she has tried to explain, and then argue the case with me, as a barrister she is a very convincing arguer, but nothing has convinced me. She came to Thailand, and had "the op", and is now reliant on a cocktail of various drugs to keep her vaguely healthy. Biologically she remains a (castrated) male. That is where all the arguments fall.

 

That is one side of the matter, it saddens me that she has ended up in such a physical and psychological state. 

 

What I cannot fathom is the argument that this is in any way "normal" to force the practicalities of transgenderism on society, in sports, "toilet issues" and so forth. It goes way beyond the risible, bearded ladies taking part in the Eurovision song contest and such. It is an attempt to reset our society, morally, physically and sociologically, to normalise and codify behaviour for a very small number of people, which should be simply left alone, as it has been in fact for hundreds of years.

 

 

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, Eleftheros said:

Yes, you're right. The old jokes are the best ones.

 

With the best will in the world, and with my best diversity, equity and inclusion hat on, I can't figure out what point you are trying to make.

 

If by "anti-trans" you mean opposing the chemical and physical mutilation of minors, then I certainly fit your definition, along with detesting the large and rapidly growing industry which urges and promotes those procedures and politicians who legislate in favor of these procedures.

 

In that case, I am proud to be "anti-trans", and I wonder how the supporters of that industry can possibly feel similar pride in their stance.

I got some news for you. The subject of the article here is "Transgenderism 'a mental health disorder'"

Where does actual neurological research stand on that issue?

And I take it that you are not opposed to surgical procedures on consenting adults? Or do you consider them mentally ill and therefore unable to make a competent decision?

 

[Eleftheros]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

I got some news for you. The subject of the article here is "Transgenderism 'a mental health disorder'"

Where does actual neurological research stand on that issue?

And I take it that you are not opposed to surgical procedures on consenting adults? Or do you consider them mentally ill and therefore unable to make a competent decision?

 

1. Most mental health disorders do not stem from neurological disorders - they have a psychiatric rather than neurological basis.

 

2. I don't think any legal barriers should be placed in the way of adults who want to transform their body to their own specification.

 

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Eleftheros said:

1. Most mental health disorders do not stem from neurological disorders - they have a psychiatric rather than neurological basis.

 

2. I don't think any legal barriers should be placed in the way of adults who want to transform their body to their own specification.

 

 

Whether that's true or not, the discussion isn't about most mental health disorders. (And given the wide use of pharmaceuticals in treating the mentally ill, your assertion is certainly open to doubt.)  It's about transgenderism. Are you familiar at all with the research on the neurological research?

[Skipalongcassidy]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:21 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

I can think of a few more important issues in this thread.

 

They overt hatred expressed by some members being an example.

 

But hey-ho, let’s argue about semantics.

 

 

Trans-phobia and Trump-phobia... plenty of overt hatred to go around.

[Eleftheros]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Whether that's true or not, the discussion isn't about most mental health disorders. (And given the wide use of pharmaceuticals in treating the mentally ill, your assertion is certainly open to doubt.)  It's about transgenderism. Are you familiar at all with the research on the neurological research?

I don't know if you're referring to work being done to try to prove there is a "transgender brain" due to unusual conditions in utero, but my understanding is they haven't got very far yet.

 

If transgenderism were a biological phenomenon, then we would expect to see its presence throughout history at a steady rate, rather than the explosive growth that has accompanied the rise of the "gender-affirming" industry.

 

Not through arbitrary markers such as dress and style, but through acknowledged concomitants such as a massively raised suicide rate, which has seen explosive growth in young people in the past few years in the US, (though not so much in other countries).

 

It seems, therefore, that transgenderism is a social and cultural phenomenon rather than a neurological one.

 

I imagine, though, that the "gender-affirming" industry would rather it could be traced to neurological sources, and I expect that they are "doing the work" right now.

 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Eleftheros said:

1. Most mental health disorders do not stem from neurological disorders - they have a psychiatric rather than neurological basis.

 

2. I don't think any legal barriers should be placed in the way of adults who want to transform their body to their own specification.

 

 

And at their own cost. 

 

Trans-promoters will expect the public to food the bill...

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Trans-phobia and Trump-phobia... plenty of overt hatred to go around.

Now you are making up phobias.

 

 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Eleftheros said:

I don't know if you're referring to work being done to try to prove there is a "transgender brain" due to unusual conditions in utero, but my understanding is they haven't got very far yet.

 

"I don't know if you're referring to work being done to try to prove there is a "transgender brain" due to unusual conditions in utero, but my understanding is they haven't got very far yet."

But there is some evidence to support the hypothesis that brain structure is a significant factor. Despite that you offer such statements as:  

"Transgenderism" requires complete rejection of physical biological reality over a sustained period of time, which certainly qualifies as a mental health disorder."