180 day rule and filing TAXES

[CartagenaWarlock]

8 hours ago, AVWB said:

Bragging rights ? If you are a USA citizen, the USA taxes on world wide income, it will not make a difference for you. 

It does not make a difference. You pay income tax for the money your brought to Thailand and then deduct your taxes from US tax obligation. Let's say you make 200k USD and bring 24K USD to Thailand. You pay taxes on 24K USD, let's say it is 2K USD. Your US tax obligation let's say 20K (besides FICA). Now you deduct 2K from your US tax obligation for the taxes you paid in Thailand. 

[khunPer]

10 hours ago, Marky Mark Mark said:

Can someone explain whats going on. I hear its way past the conjecture stage.   Its a done deal.

 

 

I make way too much money in USA.....im concerned i have to limit myself to 180 days in Thailand, 

Nothing new with the 180 days rule, it's been there all the time, so of course you shall already have registered for income tax, if your stay here more than 180 days during a calendar year...

 

The news thing is, that savings – which before were free of income tax when transferred into Thailand – might now be taxed...????

[wwest5829]

6 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

You're confusing what double taxation is.   It doesn't mean you are exempt from income tax if you are resident in another country. It only means you're not taxed double.  Let me explain.

 

For example, if you're American and your effective income tax rate paid in the US is 20%, but the country you live in assess the same income amount should pay an income tax rate of 30%.   Then you'll get a 20% tax credit for the taxes paid to the IRS, but you''ll still have to cough up the 10% difference to the taxation department of the resident country that you live in 

There are very few exceptions to this rule and most relate to pension or social security income and the details are specific to each treaty.

 

BTW,  if you're using a tax treaty about your income you are required specifically to state that on seperate forms when you file your taxes. It isn't automatically assumed by the taxation agencies.

As the Zen Master said, … we’ll see (tip of the hat to the movie, “Charlie Wilson’s War”).

[kingstonkid]

13 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

If  you make that much money you ought to consider an LTR visa.

 

And yes it is  done deal, but implementation hasn't been worked out. This being Thailand the worst can happen. Damage to certain sectors of the economy will be real but probably limited. Corruption will be thriving once more.

The problem is all the countries that they have tax agreements with and how that is going to work. 

 

Definitely going to make a lot of accounting firms very happy.

 

What are the tax rates here anyway maybe I am better off paying here

[Geir Rasch]

13 hours ago, Gottfrid said:

If you, as an American, makes way too much money in the States, then you would also be aware of how the tax treaty works.

Anybody who makes way to much money may not be smart in any other subject ????.

[lamyai3]

7 hours ago, UKresonant said:

I think it was mid December 2006, at the time of my Buhdist wedding in Bangkok, as I went to the ATM and it was giving 75baht for one British pound 

2004 was when it was 75, but still high 60s in 2006. The exchange rate went south a year or so later with the global financial crash. 

[madisongy]

8 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

If you're going to listen to AITA's representative take a sizeable salt shaker with you.

 

In the past at least one of their senior staff has represented to US expats that withdrawals from 401K's and IRA accounts can be done tax free if you live in Thailand.  This is not the view held by the IRS as seen here:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf

 

for me, it's sooooo beneficial when people post actual real information.   I'd trust the IRS publication.

[Maestro]

9 hours ago, quake said:

Yeah, about time AN started a new sub forum,  just for this tax issue.

 

Yes. A separate forum with separate topics for each country with which Thailand has a DTA plus one topic for all other countries.

[quake]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Yes. A separate forum with separate topics for each country with which Thailand has a DTA plus one topic for all other countries.

Yes, that would be great for all, as this will be an ongoing issue for a very long time.

it would be the go to place for tax in Thailand on this forum.

it could be more beneficial for traffic on the forum, due to and organized 

and structured sub forum for all .

get in quick before other sites do it.

 

 

[Marky Mark Mark]

12 hours ago, khunPer said:

Nothing new with the 180 days rule, it's been there all the time, so of course you shall already have registered for income tax, if your stay here more than 180 days during a calendar year...

 

The news thing is, that savings – which before were free of income tax when transferred into Thailand – might now be taxed...????

Has anyone filled out a Thai Tax return.?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Marky Mark Mark said:

Has anyone filled out a Thai Tax return.?

Yes, why?

[DineshR]

14 hours ago, Guavaman said:

DineshR, please get clear on this and refrain from posting misinformation that may cause misunderstanding for other people.

ARTICLE 20

Pensions and Social Security Payments

      3. Annuities derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State. The term “annuities” as used in this paragraph means a stated sum paid periodically at stated times during a specified number of years, under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration (other than services rendered).

 

This means that for people who are tax residents of Thailand (>180 days), annuities "shall be taxable only in that State" where they are resident = Thailand.

 

Annuities are taxable in Thailand under the DTA.

 

@Guavaman Thank you for the your clarification. There was no intent to spread any misinformation and was simply stating my opinion in the interpretation of the wording in the DTA. 

[Gottfrid]

10 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

Anybody who makes way to much money may not be smart in any other subject ????.

A terrible thought, but true ???? 

 

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, Marky Mark Mark said:

Has anyone filled out a Thai Tax return.?

I do mine every year before end of March, and I'm a retiree...

[Lemsta69]

18 hours ago, khunPer said:

Nothing new with the 180 days rule, it's been there all the time, so of course you shall already have registered for income tax, if your stay here more than 180 days during a calendar year...

 

The news thing is, that savings – which before were free of income tax when transferred into Thailand – might now be taxed...????

It's not "more than 180 days" it's "180 days or more". Not same same.

[BritTim]

5 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

It's not "more than 180 days" it's "180 days or more". Not same same.

It is worth noting that exactly what "days" means is unclear. Is a 59-night stay 60 days (as declared by Immigration) or is it 60 days?

[Lemsta69]

Just now, BritTim said:

It is worth noting that exactly what "days" means is unclear. Is a 59-night stay 60 days (as declared by Immigration) or is it 60 days?

I've yet to see any posts on AN that answers that question. The main thread on this topic in the Thailand News forum is about 60 pages of mostly speculation and misinformation.

 

I can only speculate myself and say that the Revenue Department would count days in the same way Immigration does, ie. you arrival date is Day 1 not Day 0.

[jayboy]

On 10/10/2023 at 8:27 AM, Crossy said:

Don't panic (yet), it's only money brought into Thailand that's taxable and you may be protected by the Thai-US double taxation agreement.

 

I wonder who is going to police this.Consider the example of a resident 180 day+ foreign pensioner has never submitted a Thai tax return but in future intends to use a foreign credit card to cover as many Thai expenses as he can, eg hotels, big ticket purchases, ATM cash etc. His objective is to reduce remittances from overseas through the banking system to a minimum just in case he is required to pay Thai income tax.

 

But how exactly will he be compelled to submit a Thai tax return and join the Thai income tax net? Is it voluntary - if so not many takers. I don't see how this will work.

 

 

[Guavaman]

6 hours ago, jayboy said:

I wonder who is going to police this. Consider the example of a resident 180 day+ foreign pensioner has never submitted a Thai tax return but in future intends to use a foreign credit card to cover as many Thai expenses as he can, eg hotels, big ticket purchases, ATM cash etc. His objective is to reduce remittances from overseas through the banking system to a minimum just in case he is required to pay Thai income tax.

 

But how exactly will he be compelled to submit a Thai tax return and join the Thai income tax net? Is it voluntary - if so not many takers. I don't see how this will work.

 

 

If the Srettha govt. establishes is a clear policy, with the weight of a law, on remittance of offshore income and initiates collection of tax from foreign retiree tax residents specifically -- and that is a BIG assumption; and if it is passed by Parliament, Then :  It might be implemented incrementally, starting with using immigration officers to screen potential tax evaders, starting with the name, passport number, and address from immigration databases.

 

The Immigration Department has the information provided to them on the 800k or 400k deposit, the 65k or 40k monthly remittance, and Combination Method for all Non-O for retirement or marriage categories, which comprise the vast majority of tax residents, not to mention 2 million migrant workers earning income in Thailand. 

 

Residents using the 3 methods for an extension of stay for retirement are the lowest-hanging fruit, followed by those on extensions of stay based upon marriage to a Thai spouse.

 

But even thinking about this is a waste of time. If there are to be any significant changes in Thai income tax law application, it should start with the tens of million Thais who (by default) claim that they a daily income of less than 166 Baht.  But that would be punishing the victims of poverty. 

 

If you look deeply into the root of this topic -- it is all about greed: one of the three poisons of the human mind: greed/lust, anger/hate, selfishness/delusion => suffering due to getting caught up in worldly matters -- losing your equanimous balance by grasping views. 

 

A wise person understands that there could be infinite views about any topic.  "Views" of the blind men touching the elephant.  Partial truths from different perspectives.

[BritTim]

12 hours ago, jayboy said:

I wonder who is going to police this.Consider the example of a resident 180 day+ foreign pensioner has never submitted a Thai tax return but in future intends to use a foreign credit card to cover as many Thai expenses as he can, eg hotels, big ticket purchases, ATM cash etc. His objective is to reduce remittances from overseas through the banking system to a minimum just in case he is required to pay Thai income tax.

 

But how exactly will he be compelled to submit a Thai tax return and join the Thai income tax net? Is it voluntary - if so not many takers. I don't see how this will work.

Worst case, and I actually do not think it will happen, we could go back to the system that existed decades ago where you needed a tax clearance to leave the country after spending more than a certain number of days here during the calendar year. That involved an interrogation at the tax office and was worse than any of the bureaucracy we must endure here now. The tax clearance was abolished during the short technocrat government of Anand Panyarachun about 30 years ago.

[Mike Lister]

15 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

I've yet to see any posts on AN that answers that question. The main thread on this topic in the Thailand News forum is about 60 pages of mostly speculation and misinformation.

 

I can only speculate myself and say that the Revenue Department would count days in the same way Immigration does, ie. you arrival date is Day 1 not Day 0.

A day is based on where you are at midnight, that's the UK Revenue definition.

[OJAS]

23 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, why?

And can RD tax returns be filed in English? Or is Thai the strict (& sole) order of the day?

 

[OJAS]

On 10/10/2023 at 10:03 PM, kingstonkid said:

What are the tax rates here anyway maybe I am better off paying here

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/AEC/AseanTax-Thailand.pdf

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, OJAS said:

And can RD tax returns be filed in English? Or is Thai the strict (& sole) order of the day?

 

There are two versions in English, one is "for translation purposes only" and the second is for "filing". The online system however is solely in Thai.

[OJAS]

15 hours ago, jayboy said:

I don't see how this will work.

IMHO this would all only work if the RD were to tear up each and every foreign double taxation agreement entered into by Thailand since the amounts which they would otherwise be able to screw us for by way of taxation would almost certainly amount to peanuts. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the international response to such unilateral action on the RD's part would take the form of punitive economic sanctions targetted at crippling the tourist industry upon which Thailand relies so much. Not to mention that hiso's with significant economic investments in our home countries would almost certainly find their assets and bank accounts there frozen. They alone should ensure that the RD's hare-brained proposals are unlikely ever to see the light of day in any meaningful way, I would have thought!

 

[mania]

On 10/10/2023 at 1:57 AM, khunPer said:

Nothing new with the 180 days rule, it's been there all the time, so of course you shall already have registered for income tax, if your stay here more than 180 days during a calendar year...

Well if I'm honest with myself 180 days a year is about the maximum good days Thailand has per year anyway ....Will have to just skip the smoky/Hot season & part of the rainy season ????  But we were considering buying a new home In Chiang Mai next year & that would be off the table

[mania]

17 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

It's not "more than 180 days" it's "180 days or more". Not same same.

Ok so Doesn't that just mean 179 days or less then?

[BritTim]

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

A day is based on where you are at midnight, that's the UK Revenue definition.

That makes sense and, of course, differs from Thai Immigration's definition. I have no idea what the Thai tax authorities use.

[jacob29]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:02 PM, UKresonant said:

I think generally the change could affect what you thought are savings. As would they not assume it all comes from income in the past? Savings were up until 31st Dec 23, that money that existed in a ring fenced bank account or similar. and brought in the following Thai Tax / calendar year.

 

Pending clarification, how will they want you to prove they are "savings" brought into the country? So it is not taxed.

My expectation is that they will tally foreign income earned *while* you are a Thai tax resident, and any future remittance below that threshold will be considered as income. At least it's the only way I can see it working. Which makes it effectively the same as tax on worldwide income (at least not more), where you can get away with less tax if you never in future bring in more money than you earned abroad.

[jacob29]

On 10/11/2023 at 3:42 PM, jayboy said:

intends to use a foreign credit card to cover as many Thai expenses as he can, eg hotels, big ticket purchases, ATM cash etc. His objective is to reduce remittances from overseas through the banking system to a minimum just in case he is required to pay Thai income tax.

 

This sounds like tax evasion, with a very obvious electronic footprint. I find it highly unlikely countries don't have the means of monitoring these currency flows, all electronic methods are surely tracked for money laundering reasons.