Swappable batteries

[placeholder]

Gogoro’s latest move to roll out thousands of new battery swapping stations

 

Battery-swapping leader Gogoro has just inked a new deal to see thousands of new battery-swapping GoStations added to the company’s existing force of swap stations already operating around Asia and the Middle East.

The announcement is part of a Memorandum of Understanding with Hindustan Petroleum Corporation Ltd. (HPCL), a prominent Indian oil company with over 21,000 retail outlets...

Gogoro’s existing network of thousands of battery-swapping stations spread across over a half dozen countries allows users to quickly exchange depleted batteries for fully charged ones, facilitating more convenient and efficient urban transportation.

https://electrek.co/2023/11/06/gogoros-hpcl-thousands-of-battery-swapping-stations/

[steve187]

not available in Thailand at the moment i believe

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, steve187 said:

not available in Thailand at the moment i believe

I believe that's the case. I wonder why. It seems to be very successful elsewhere.

[thaibeachlovers]

If the lovies did some work on swoppable batteries, it's an easy job to take an ICE engine and transmission out, and install wheel hub motors. The swappable batteries would sit in the engine bay.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by thaibeachlovers

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the lovies did some work on swoppable batteries, it's an easy job to take an ICE engine and transmission out, and install wheel hub motors. The swappable batteries would sit in the engine bay.

 

It already being done. So what's your point?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590198221000373#:~:text=Hobbyists and some small businesses,controller%2C battery packs and inverter.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, placeholder said:

It already being done. So what's your point?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590198221000373#:~:text=Hobbyists and some small businesses,controller%2C battery packs and inverter.

55555555555555

 

It's hardly been promoted as an alternative. Probably because they make more money selling evs than modifying existing cars.

 

Where is the infrastructure to swap batteries on a large scale? NOWHERE.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

55555555555555

 

It's hardly been promoted as an alternative. Probably because they make more money selling evs than modifying existing cars.

 

Where is the infrastructure to swap batteries on a large scale? NOWHERE.

 

 

Nio built 2,000 battery swap stations globally, leaving Geely, CATL, and GAC far behind

Nio surpassed the 2000 swap station milestone. The company operates 1,975 swap stations in China and 27 in Europe, bringing the total number to 2002 as of today. The Hefei-based EV maker is getting faster: The first 1,000 took Nio four years, and adding the second 1,000 took them a year and three months.

https://carnewschina.com/2023/10/20/nio-built-2000-battery-swap-stations-globally-leaving-geely-catl-and-gac-far-behind/

 

Factbox: How many battery swap and charging stations does Nio have in China's largest cities?

As of July 28, Nio had 1,591 battery swap stations, 1,535 supercharging stations and 1,317 destination charging stations in China. Its charging map also has access to 763,449 third-party charging piles.

https://cnevpost.com/2023/07/29/how-many-battery-swap-charging-stations-nio-china-cities/

 

NIO: 10 Billion Kilometers, 20 Million Battery Swaps

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/12/nio-10-billion-kilometers-driven-20-million-battery-swaps/

 

You know, you could have looked this up on a thing called the internet. Or maybe you think putting something in all CAPITAL LETTERS makes it true?   At any rate the correct answer to your question is: SOMEWHERE.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

27 in Europe

That'll work

555555555555555555555

[placeholder]

20 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That'll work

555555555555555555555

There's a reason that the rules forbid deceptive editing of other members' post. Here again is the quote you deceptivetly truncated:

Nio built 2,000 battery swap stations globally, leaving Geely, CATL, and GAC far behind

Nio surpassed the 2000 swap station milestone. The company operates 1,975 swap stations in China and 27 in Europe, bringing the total number to 2002 as of today. The Hefei-based EV maker is getting faster: The first 1,000 took Nio four years, and adding the second 1,000 took them a year and three months.

https://carnewschina.com/2023/10/20/nio-built-2000-battery-swap-stations-globally-leaving-geely-catl-and-gac-far-behind/

 

That's 1975 stations. And they're still building more.

And here is your ridiculously false claim.

"Where is the infrastructure to swap batteries on a large scale? NOWHERE."

Clearly, there's nothing to your latest post except flagrant deception.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by placeholder

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/14/2023 at 1:23 PM, placeholder said:

 

 

Nio built 2,000 battery swap stations globally, leaving Geely, CATL, and GAC far behind

Nio surpassed the 2000 swap station milestone. The company operates 1,975 swap stations in China and 27 in Europe, bringing the total number to 2002 as of today. The Hefei-based EV maker is getting faster: The first 1,000 took Nio four years, and adding the second 1,000 took them a year and three months.

https://carnewschina.com/2023/10/20/nio-built-2000-battery-swap-stations-globally-leaving-geely-catl-and-gac-far-behind/

 

Factbox: How many battery swap and charging stations does Nio have in China's largest cities?

As of July 28, Nio had 1,591 battery swap stations, 1,535 supercharging stations and 1,317 destination charging stations in China. Its charging map also has access to 763,449 third-party charging piles.

https://cnevpost.com/2023/07/29/how-many-battery-swap-charging-stations-nio-china-cities/

 

NIO: 10 Billion Kilometers, 20 Million Battery Swaps

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/12/nio-10-billion-kilometers-driven-20-million-battery-swaps/

 

You know, you could have looked this up on a thing called the internet. Or maybe you think putting something in all CAPITAL LETTERS makes it true?   At any rate the correct answer to your question is: SOMEWHERE.

 

 

27 for the whole of Europe. That's really going to work, not.

[placeholder]

 

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

 

27 for the whole of Europe. That's really going to work, not.

Once again here's what you wrote:

"Where is the infrastructure to swap batteries on a large scale? NOWHERE."

Obviously that is a false statement. The article I cited, said there were  1975 swapping stations in China. But instead of being honorable and acknowledging that you were wrong, you offer an irrelevant deflection. You've got nothing. Well, make that you've got nothing except dishonesty.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by placeholder

[billd766]

On 12/13/2023 at 10:29 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

If the lovies did some work on swoppable batteries, it's an easy job to take an ICE engine and transmission out, and install wheel hub motors. The swappable batteries would sit in the engine bay.

 

 

I don't think it is quite that simple as you make it sound and it certainly won't be cheap. Then of course you will need to buy the first lot of swappable batteries.

 

The next problem I can foresee is when you take the vehicle for its annual test when they do the pollution test on the exhaust pipe. That of course assumes that the testing station is qualified to test EVs.

 

Then of course there is the annual road tax which will be different for EVs compared to ICE vehicles.

 

Of course if you buy your EV new from the dealer and have the conversion done elsewhere, it is most likely that the vehicle warranty will become invalid, 

 

I should think that trying to sell such a vehicle second hand will be a big problem later.

[billd766]

On 12/13/2023 at 10:45 AM, placeholder said:

It already being done. So what's your point?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590198221000373#:~:text=Hobbyists and some small businesses,controller%2C battery packs and inverter.

But just how many are being done compared to the overall numbers of ICE to EV vehicles?

 

How are they tested outside of Germany? Now many testing stations will be needed with qualified staff just to test the vehicle?

 

I don't think that the vehicle manufacturers will service it which means you have to go back to the place that converted it or find an approved specialist with qualified staff to do it.

 

I don't suppose that on road repair and recovery companies would have staff trained yet.

 

If hobbyist and small business only are involved in the conversions, will that affect the manufacturers warranty and the resale value of the converted vehicle should the owner wish to sell it after several years?

 

How about the excise duty payable on such a vehicle? Will it be taxed as an ICE, an EV, a hybrid or something completely different.

 

How would insurance companies treat the vehicle. As an ICE, an EV or something special.

 

Whilst it seems like a reasonable idea it also seems to be fraught with problems at this point.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But just how many are being done compared to the overall numbers of ICE to EV vehicles?

 

How are they tested outside of Germany? Now many testing stations will be needed with qualified staff just to test the vehicle?

 

I don't think that the vehicle manufacturers will service it which means you have to go back to the place that converted it or find an approved specialist with qualified staff to do it.

 

I don't suppose that on road repair and recovery companies would have staff trained yet.

 

If hobbyist and small business only are involved in the conversions, will that affect the manufacturers warranty and the resale value of the converted vehicle should the owner wish to sell it after several years?

 

How about the excise duty payable on such a vehicle? Will it be taxed as an ICE, an EV, a hybrid or something completely different.

 

How would insurance companies treat the vehicle. As an ICE, an EV or something special.

 

Whilst it seems like a reasonable idea it also seems to be fraught with problems at this point.

I wasn't defending the idea. Just pointing out, that, as per usual, thaibeachlovers was unacquainted with the facts.

Obviously, if it was a good idea to build EV's on an ICE chassis, why wouldn't the major auto manufacturers be doing that instead of dropping billions on creating entirely new vehicles.

[billd766]

7 hours ago, placeholder said:

There's a reason that the rules forbid deceptive editing of other members' post. Here again is the quote you deceptivetly truncated:

Nio built 2,000 battery swap stations globally, leaving Geely, CATL, and GAC far behind

Nio surpassed the 2000 swap station milestone. The company operates 1,975 swap stations in China and 27 in Europe, bringing the total number to 2002 as of today. The Hefei-based EV maker is getting faster: The first 1,000 took Nio four years, and adding the second 1,000 took them a year and three months.

https://carnewschina.com/2023/10/20/nio-built-2000-battery-swap-stations-globally-leaving-geely-catl-and-gac-far-behind/

 

That's 1975 stations. And they're still building more.

And here is your ridiculously false claim.

"Where is the infrastructure to swap batteries on a large scale? NOWHERE."

Clearly, there's nothing to your latest post except flagrant deception.

 

How many batteries will be required, on average, to stock all these battery service stations If you take 100 batteries as the average, the the 2,000 battery station already foe the one company alone will need 200,000 batteries, which is the equivalent of 200, electric bikes/scooters without batteries.

 

Again just an assumption, if each bike/scooter owner has 2 batteries, 1 in use and a spare and there are just 1,000,000 bike/scooter around the world that means that there are already 2,000,000 batteries out there in use.

 

Where will all these batteries come from that will be needed?

[billd766]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

I wasn't defending the idea. Just pointing out, that, as per usual, thaibeachlovers was unacquainted with the facts.

Obviously, if it was a good idea to build EV's on an ICE chassis, why wouldn't the major auto manufacturers be doing that instead of dropping billions on creating entirely new vehicles.

I have tried to point out some of the pitfalls and problems that I can see.

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

How many batteries will be required, on average, to stock all these battery service stations If you take 100 batteries as the average, the the 2,000 battery station already foe the one company alone will need 200,000 batteries, which is the equivalent of 200, electric bikes/scooters without batteries.

 

Again just an assumption, if each bike/scooter owner has 2 batteries, 1 in use and a spare and there are just 1,000,000 bike/scooter around the world that means that there are already 2,000,000 batteries out there in use.

 

Where will all these batteries come from that will be needed?

The stork will bring them?

I actually don't understand what is the problem. They'll be manufactured. And when they can no longer hold enough charge they will be recycled. If you're worried about reserves of lithium, you can rest easy. It turns out that there is a lot more about than was previously reckoned. For example:

 

"The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) today announced results of the most comprehensive analysis to date quantifying the domestic lithium resources in California’s Salton Sea region. Conducted by DOE's Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, the analysis found that with expected technology advances, the Salton Sea region's total resources could produce more than 3,400 kilotons of lithium, enough to support over 375 million batteries for electric vehicles (EV)—more than the total number of vehicles ."

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/us-department-energy-analysis-confirms-californias-salton-sea-region-be-rich-domestic#:~:text=Conducted by DOE's Lawrence Berkeley,the total number of vehicles

 

And as batteries get better and increase their charging capacity, they can be made smaller, too. Lithium sulfur batteries that can hold more more than the best current litihium carbonate are now being manufactured in a pilot plant in the USA. Down the road aluminium sulfur batteries are being researched. Given that aluminium and sulfur are abundant and cheap. they should cost a lot less than lithium batteries.  And sodium batteries are currently being used in some autos in china.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:44 PM, billd766 said:

I don't think it is quite that simple as you make it sound and it certainly won't be cheap. Then of course you will need to buy the first lot of swappable batteries.

 

The next problem I can foresee is when you take the vehicle for its annual test when they do the pollution test on the exhaust pipe. That of course assumes that the testing station is qualified to test EVs.

 

Then of course there is the annual road tax which will be different for EVs compared to ICE vehicles.

 

Of course if you buy your EV new from the dealer and have the conversion done elsewhere, it is most likely that the vehicle warranty will become invalid, 

 

I should think that trying to sell such a vehicle second hand will be a big problem later.

It's already being done on a small scale, and more for older cars that someone wants to keep than for new ones.

I don't think they are using swoppable batteries at this time, given no where to swap them yet.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/15/2023 at 11:31 PM, billd766 said:

Where will all these batteries come from that will be needed?

As usual the proponents of such overlook the problems that would arise if such became popular.

[placeholder]

On 12/18/2023 at 9:53 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

As usual the proponents of such overlook the problems that would arise if such became popular.

Really? Can you identify a problem related to supply that has been overlooked? Or, is this a case of, as usual, you've got nothing.

Edited December 21, 2023 by placeholder

[KhunLA]

On 12/18/2023 at 9:53 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

As usual the proponents of such overlook the problems that would arise if such became popular.

Would think it's going to by proprietary to brand, and how many will actually be needed.  Swapped out battery will be put into 'charging' rotation, and when full, simply placed in the 'swap' rotation.

 

How many Nio s are going to show up within 1 hrs time to swap a battery out ? Probably just those O&A, or who can't charge at home.  Basically a 'subscription' base product, so they know the inventory & turn over that would be needed.

 

If it only takes 5 mins to swap one out, then can only do about 10 per hr any way.  At most, 8 or 9 (per bay) would need to be on site.  First one swapped would be charged up before the 8th or 9th car came in for a swap.

 

Let's not over think it.

 

Seems to be quite the success in CH, so not seeing a problem, except for fear of the unknown from ignorant people.   As we see simply from the replies & threads about EVs that are filled with misinformation and silliness from the anti EV / CH folks.

 

Definitely fills a niche in the market for impatient people or people that can't charge at home.  Steers them right to their product line, and excellent marketing.  Win Win all around.

Edited December 21, 2023 by KhunLA

[placeholder]

36 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Would think it's going to by proprietary to brand, and how many will actually be needed.  Swapped out battery will be put into 'charging' rotation, and when full, simply placed in the 'swap' rotation.

 

How many Nio s are going to show up within 1 hrs time to swap a battery out ? Probably just those O&A, or who can't charge at home.  Basically a 'subscription' base product, so they know the inventory & turn over that would be needed.

 

If it only takes 5 mins to swap one out, then can only do about 10 per hr any way.  At most, 8 or 9 (per bay) would need to be on site.  First one swapped would be charged up before the 8th or 9th car came in for a swap.

 

Let's not over think it.

 

Seems to be quite the success in CH, so not seeing a problem, except for fear of the unknown from ignorant people.   As we see simply from the replies & threads about EVs that are filled with misinformation and silliness from the anti EV / CH folks.

 

Definitely fills a niche in the market for impatient people or people that can't charge at home.  Steers them right to their product line, and excellent marketing.  Win Win all around.

And the original post is about Gogoro. Its system is open to anyone who wants to adopt it.

[KhunLA]

27 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And the original post is about Gogoro. Its system is open to anyone who wants to adopt it.

Didn't see to OP for an obvious reason, and saw the title & last couple replies (TBL), who replied to, which were about cars.

 

Since your reply followed mine, thought I'd peek.  Hence explained.   On topic, I understand gogoro is very successful, unless something change since last time I read about them.

 

DECO already has removeable batteries in a select number of there motorcycles here/TH, but don't think any plan to open swapping stations.  If I was into distance scooter driving, I'd get one of their dual battery scooters, & 2 extra batteries.   That would be way more hours on a motorcycle than I'd ever want to be on.  Simply charge back up at the hotel over night.

 

Simply problems w/simply solutions:

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Would think it's going to by proprietary to brand, and how many will actually be needed.  Swapped out battery will be put into 'charging' rotation, and when full, simply placed in the 'swap' rotation.

 

How many Nio s are going to show up within 1 hrs time to swap a battery out ? Probably just those O&A, or who can't charge at home.  Basically a 'subscription' base product, so they know the inventory & turn over that would be needed.

 

If it only takes 5 mins to swap one out, then can only do about 10 per hr any way.  At most, 8 or 9 (per bay) would need to be on site.  First one swapped would be charged up before the 8th or 9th car came in for a swap.

 

Let's not over think it.

 

Seems to be quite the success in CH, so not seeing a problem, except for fear of the unknown from ignorant people.   As we see simply from the replies & threads about EVs that are filled with misinformation and silliness from the anti EV / CH folks.

 

Definitely fills a niche in the market for impatient people or people that can't charge at home.  Steers them right to their product line, and excellent marketing.  Win Win all around.

I have nothing against swappable batteries and it would be a good idea, except most EVs don't seem to have that capability, which means change stations will not happen in sufficient numbers to make it something most will want, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

I have nothing against electric cars per se, except they cause pollution and exploitation in poor countries, and are a luvvie project promoted as an answer to CO2 rise which IMO is BS.

Cities would be more livable if micro EVs were the only cars allowed, but with present technology they will not replace diesel or petrol for long distance trips.

[KhunLA]

48 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have nothing against swappable batteries and it would be a good idea, except most EVs don't seem to have that capability, which means change stations will not happen in sufficient numbers to make it something most will want, IMO.

That's location dependent, and at present, plenty of CS here/TH, and inexpensive.   I'm actually surprised how many more are showing up while out & about.  

 

Most people charge at home anyway, so irrelevant for many people.  We're O&A as much or more than most people, half our kms last year were O&A, 10k of 20k, and half those/5k, needing CS, and not once was there a Q.   A few of those, and most recent was done on weekends.

 

My observations, I think more  PTT Parks now have CS, than not,  Along with a CS is easy to find, than E85 petrol, which was a challenge when we had the ICE version of our MG ZS.

 

Peoprle don't seem to have any problem Q'ing up every week to top up with petrol for 10 minutes.  So 520 or 260 minutes a year, if topping up every week or 2.   When it takes me 13 to 26 minutes a year, as all of 30 sec to plug in/out at home, every week, and that's being negative.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

That's location dependent, and at present, plenty of CS here/TH, and inexpensive.   I'm actually surprised how many more are showing up while out & about.  

 

Most people charge at home anyway, so irrelevant for many people.  We're O&A as much or more than most people, half our kms last year were O&A, 10k of 20k, and half those/5k, needing CS, and not once was there a Q.   A few of those, and most recent was done on weekends.

 

My observations, I think more  PTT Parks now have CS, than not,  Along with a CS is easy to find, than E85 petrol, which was a challenge when we had the ICE version of our MG ZS.

 

Peoprle don't seem to have any problem Q'ing up every week to top up with petrol for 10 minutes.  So 520 or 260 minutes a year, if topping up every week or 2.   When it takes me 13 to 26 minutes a year, as all of 30 sec to plug in/out at home, every week, and that's being negative.

The problem for me would be if on a long ( 7 hour trip, as I used to do regularly ) I don't want to spend more than 15 minutes filling up half way. Only one petrol station half way and I doubt they would have enough charging stations ( if they even have any at all ) to allow that, even if I could charge in 15 minutes.

[Skipalongcassidy]

All the batteries and swappable or not will not make one bit of difference when there is no way to charge them... Maine forced to stop and think about EV mandate vote after widespread power outage

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The problem for me would be if on a long ( 7 hour trip, as I used to do regularly ) I don't want to spend more than 15 minutes filling up half way. Only one petrol station half way and I doubt they would have enough charging stations ( if they even have any at all ) to allow that, even if I could charge in 15 minutes.

Most people don't do regular 7 hr O&As, and even our O&As, and we probably still spent less time topping up the EV, than most do, topping up their ICEV throughout the year.  More than enough CS here/TH.   Though since not living here or using, people don't realize or notice it.

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

All the batteries and swappable or not will not make one bit of difference when there is no way to charge them... Maine forced to stop and think about EV mandate vote after widespread power outage

And that's exactly how the fossil fuel industry with control the EV rollouts & mandates, by controlling the politicians, and the accessibility of the grid.  Purposely not having it upgraded sufficiently to supply the needs of the people.  

 

They've done it for decades, restricting the use of alternative energy.  No reason, every rooftop, where possible, doesn't have solar panels on it.   But one way or another, they make that hard to do.  Whether by cost, over taxation, or simple regulation.

 

That's a little too obvious.  And the people are simply too stupid to force the politicians to do the right thing.  Believe all the BS they are told.  Why I love living in TH.  Not a Nanny state.