178/187 day split to avoid tax resident status.

[scubascuba3]

I reckon many people, hundreds, thousands may do the same, have a base in 2-3 countries, you can get lazy living in Thailand most/all year so it will make many of us travel, I'm thinking Philippines/Bali/Cambodia, not easy for those with families here so they'll have to pay up and grin and bear it

[sometimewoodworker]

So much wrong information. As to proof of being here they can require that you give that and like HMRC if you lie the penalty is severe. As to source of information on income, you prove that it comes from sources that are not taxable, if you lie the penalty is severe. as to the income proof, only English or Thai is accepted. As to too complicated, you almost certainly haven’t completed a Thai tax form (I have) it’s not difficult but you must have a Thai speaker to assist. The form is not quite as long as the U.K. one that my tax advisor sends in for me.

Edited December 7, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[scorecard]

Is anybody sure yet what the law will be and just who will be affected and how and what income will be seen as relevant, and at what levels? etc., etc...

 

 

[Fr87]

19 hours ago, bob smith said:

I've been busy doing a lot of planning recently.

 

In light of these new world order tax laws that are coming down the pipeline and will be enacted on January 1st 2024, looking after numero uno is the order of the day...

 

I will be spending no more than 178 days inside Thailand in any calendar year. The remaining 187 days will be spent abroad. Probably Cambodia mostly, with a sprinkle of Vietnam, Phils, Laos and Nepal thrown in for good measure. 

 

I have multiple women already lined up at all but one destination, so getting my feet under the table shouldn't be an issue.

 

Tighten the screws they may, but you are going to have to try a damn sight harder if you want to get your grubby little mits on my dosh.

 

bob smith, well dressed 21st century nomadic gigolo at your service. 

with love x

Ok

 

Bye

[Letseng]

15 hours ago, ChrisP24 said:

 

Well, if you convert pounds, dollars or euros to baht, pesos, dong, etc. that transforms men of even modest means into millionaires. 

Zimbabwe $$ make him a multi billionaire. 😉

[BenStark]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

I reckon many people, hundreds, thousands may do the same, have a base in 2-3 countries, you can get lazy living in Thailand most/all year so it will make many of us travel, I'm thinking Philippines/Bali/Cambodia, not easy for those with families here so they'll have to pay up and grin and bear it

 

That brings up another question.

 

In the early years I lived in Thailand, I kept my address on my property in my home country.

 

I had a travel insurance, which had in the small details that is was only available for residents of my home country, and at one time I was refused a claim.

 

When I inquired, I was told that since I didn't stay 180 days in my home country, I was not considered a resident any more.

 

So someone who splits his time between 3 countries, 3 x 120 days, is in principle not a resident anywhere?

[BenStark]

50 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Is anybody sure yet what the law will be and just who will be affected and how and what income will be seen as relevant, and at what levels? etc., etc...

 

 

 

 

I think not, because my embassy sent an email that they for now have no idea, and are investigating how it will affect expats.

 

Till now I haven't got a follow-up email

[Gottfrid]

5 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That is a rather ridiculous, not to mention totally false, statement. ‘where I get ZERO benefits.’ You get benefits just by living here. You don’t get all the same benefits as a Thai of course but how is that any different from the vast majority of countries! There are vanishing few countries that give the same benefits to none residents 

Yeah, but for Tax, you are considered a resident, but for other things a none resident. I know most countries see it like that, but it´s soo wrong.

 

[Srikcir]

If you qualify, get the 10-year Long Term Resident visa for 50,000 baht. No 90-day reports (only 5 year report); how will Immigration track your 180 days in Thailand?

No minimum Thai bank balances required, no minimum foreign fund transfers to Thailand required. Under several categories of the visa your foreign income is tax-free, ie., Wealthy Pensioner. Comes with Fast Track airport exit and entry, free re-entries.

[novacova]

22 hours ago, bob smith said:

I have multiple women already lined up at all but one destination,

Where does Mrs Smith fit into this I wonder?

[hotandsticky]

9 hours ago, bob smith said:

'do whatever you want' she just said.

 

 

So, your wife is not Thai?

[Ralf001]

All those air tickets will cost more than the taxes (if any) are payable !!

[bob smith]

1 hour ago, Ralf001 said:

All those air tickets will cost more than the taxes (if any) are payable !!

Its not the point ralf.

 

my life on my terms!!

 

why the hell would i give my hard earned money away to thailand? 

[buick]

give Fort Bonafacio/Bonafacio Global City (BGC) in Manila a try.  everything there is new, built in the last 15 yrs or less.  very clean.  decent nightlife within BGC.  P Burgos is only about 10 minutes via taxi if you leave after traffic dies down (usually about 8:30pm).  if i had to live somewhere other than BKK, i'd go for BGC.  i like Vietnam, mainly Saigon and Danang, but i couldn't stay long term in either place (a few weeks max).  i spent a month in Saigon when the big flood hit BKK (2011 ?).  i was ready to get back home to BKK !! 

[Drumbuie]

11 hours ago, bob smith said:

I can afford it!

 

and I'd rather spend MY money the way I want to rather than contribute to a society where I get ZERO benefits.

 

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!!!!

Zero benefits? Are there no street lights where you live? no roads? no airports? no railways?

If you're living in a country you benefit from its national infrastructure, which is paid for by taxes.  Even if you don't directly benefit from all of it, the people who serve you in shops, bars and restaurants or drive you in a taxi or otherwise make your life more comfortable in all kinds of ways,  big and small, do.

So it may be indirect benefits but it's *not* zero benefits.

 

PS I hate to tell you but you're already paying tax here. VAT. 

[scubascuba3]

10 hours ago, BenStark said:

 

That brings up another question.

 

In the early years I lived in Thailand, I kept my address on my property in my home country.

 

I had a travel insurance, which had in the small details that is was only available for residents of my home country, and at one time I was refused a claim.

 

When I inquired, I was told that since I didn't stay 180 days in my home country, I was not considered a resident any more.

 

So someone who splits his time between 3 countries, 3 x 120 days, is in principle not a resident anywhere?

Good point, getting travel insurance may be a problem but likely there's a solution out there

[UKresonant]

13 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

So much wrong information. As to proof of being here they can require that you give that and like HMRC if you lie the penalty is severe. As to source of information on income, you prove that it comes from sources that are not taxable, if you lie the penalty is severe. as to the income proof, only English or Thai is accepted. As to too complicated, you almost certainly haven’t completed a Thai tax form (I have) it’s not difficult but you must have a Thai speaker to assist. The form is not quite as long as the U.K. one that my tax advisor sends in for me.

May I ask out of curiosity (for potential future use, as I'm in the UK presently), what do they normally accept as proof. would they likely accept UK pension pay slips/pension letters, showing amount of tax deducted already, maybe with a sample postal UK Bank statement showing the amounts being credited, prior to funds being remitted to Thailand? I could show only the proof I get!. As the tax year do not align I can't see P60s being much help.

I think my Thai Tax would be only slightly more (to pay), compared to the UK, as long as they accept to allow credit relief for the taxes already deducted in the UK (but apparently Thai RD don't have a form to claim the credit relief to submit with a return, HMRC just says to write to them).

I practice I'm sure the wife (and son later), will know the tax system inside out, but not the DTA aspects.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, UKresonant said:

May I ask out of curiosity (for potential future use, as I'm in the UK presently), what do they normally accept as proof. would they likely accept UK pension pay slips/pension letters, showing amount of tax deducted already, maybe with a sample postal UK Bank statement showing the amounts being credited, prior to funds being remitted to Thailand? I could show only the proof I get!. As the tax year do not align I can't see P60s being much help.

I think my Thai Tax would be only slightly more (to pay), compared to the UK, as long as they accept to allow credit relief for the taxes already deducted in the UK (but apparently Thai RD don't have a form to claim the credit relief to submit with a return, HMRC just says to write to them).

I practice I'm sure the wife (and son later), will know the tax system inside out, but not the DTA aspects.

It is likely that they would require something like a P60, if given, or the relevant pages of your HMRC tax return, it is unlikely that pay slips would be accepted, also that a pension letter would be enough, however TIT and so different officer, different of office, different answers. also it is simple enough to assume taxable income is constant during a tax year and just use the faction cover erred by the Thai tax year for proof and project into the current untaxed, as yet, income.

There is a double taxation agreement between Thailand and the U.K. however as I understand not everything is actually covered so you would need advice from an accountant who is familiar with the agreement and thx laws.

 

As to your wife and son knowing the tax system, my opinion is that unless they actually work for the tax department or are tax accountants they probably don’t now anything more than that which effects them. 
My experience is that only a small minority of general taxpayers know and understand the system well and a smaller subset can cross check HMRC and an even smaller number know the majority of the system that isn’t directly relevant to them.

Edited December 8, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

20 hours ago, CMBob said:

One big question is how is the alleged new (and questionable) tax law going to be enforced.  First off, how would they have a clue a foreigner is here more than 180 days?  The only way I can think of for tham to do that is to check Immigration records (seeing an annual extension or seeing at least a couple of 90-day reports in a row.....and then presuming the foreigner is here over 180 days); if that's the case and the OP retains an annual extension, his staying here only 60 days or 178 days won't stop the Thai inquiry.

Then, okay, let's say they've looked at something and guess/presume the foreigner has been here 180+ days, then what do they do?  Alert Immigration offices and require them to give no extensions or whatever unless and until the foreigner has a clearance from Treasury?

I smell a cluster_____ if/when they ever try to enforce any tax law aimed at foreigners.

 

You are assuming a far more complicated system of checks than would likely happen.

You report the number of days in county, the dates of each trip and the places. They will assume that these are correct unless someone has reported or they suspect you have misreported then they require proof and may well investigate. Get caught out misreporting and get investigated more thoroughly. Result you get a tax bill that will blow your socks off where if you don’t fight it and document it becomes your tax liability (this is how HMRC works).

 

There is already a law in place that requires a tax clearance document from the Treasury to allow you to exit Thailand, that it almost never enforced doesn’t mean it will never be enforced.

 

However if the law will ever get passed is another matter and if passed it is likely that they are going to concentrate on high net worth individuals as those are the ones who will have tax requirements in the hundreds of thousands. This in contrast to the U.K. where HMRC goes for the the little people as they don’t fight back.

[CMBob]

19 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are assuming a far more complicated system of checks than would likely happen.

You report the number of days in county, the dates of each trip and the places.

I live here permanently and I remain at a loss as to how enforcement would or could happen.  Perhaps you could explain as I don't understand your comments.

(1)  Yes, I understand your comment about maybe they require a tax clearance before leaving the country.  Yet, that seems a bit odd.  They would require exit immigration to see that?  And you're suggesting they would require that of every one of the 27+ million foreign visitors?

(2)  Where, when, and how would a foreigner report the number of days in country (I presume by "county" you meant country)? 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, CMBob said:

I live here permanently and I remain at a loss as to how enforcement would or could happen. 

If required it would be through your tax return,

1 hour ago, CMBob said:

Yes, I understand your comment about maybe they require a tax clearance before leaving the country. 

It already law so it can be enforced, as far as I know it is already enforced in some cases.

1 hour ago, CMBob said:

They would require exit immigration to see that? 

Exactly, for those leaving. However if you don’t leave. They can enforce the requirement to make a tax return which is already law.

1 hour ago, CMBob said:

And you're suggesting they would require that of every one of the 27+ million foreign visitors?

No, not at all they are unlikely include anyone with a tourist visa or exemption. Easy enough to restrict it to longer stay extensions and high net worth (or all) Thai citizens 

1 hour ago, CMBob said:

(2)  Where, when, and how would a foreigner report the number of days in country (I presume by "county" you meant country)? 

Yes it’s the text to speech and auto correct, the requirement is already in, or would be added to the tax return( as it wasn’t relevant to me I forget if it was there, I don’t remember te exact details). For an example that is easy to read look the U.K. HMRC form that already has that and has had it for as long as I remember.

Edited December 8, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[CMBob]

I respectfully disagree with your speculation as to the issue of enforcement.   

It appears you are guessing that exit Immigration will be tasked with figuring out how long a foreigner has been in Thailand during a given year and then refusing to let them leave unless and until they obtain a Thai Treasury tax clearance.  Sorry, I simply don't believe that scenario is going to happen.

[bob smith]

4 minutes ago, CMBob said:

I respectfully disagree with your speculation as to the issue of enforcement.   

It appears you are guessing that exit Immigration will be tasked with figuring out how long a foreigner has been in Thailand during a given year and then refusing to let them leave unless and until they obtain a Thai Treasury tax clearance.  Sorry, I simply don't believe that scenario is going to happen.

Niether do I.

 

And I STILL think that this legislation will be pushed back by parliament as it would also affect many rich and influential Thais that have business interests overseas.

 

However, if it does eventually come to pass that the law is promulgated then my Plan B is oven ready and will be put into motion in due course.

Edited December 8, 2023 by bob smith

[sometimewoodworker]

53 minutes ago, CMBob said:

I respectfully disagree with your speculation as to the issue of enforcement.   

It appears you are guessing that exit Immigration will be tasked with figuring out how long a foreigner has been in Thailand during a given year and then refusing to let them leave unless and until they obtain a Thai Treasury tax clearance.  Sorry, I simply don't believe that scenario is going to happen.

You are clearly misunderstanding the point.

 

If it is enforced (that is a very big if, and as others speculate unlikely to happen) then anyone with a long stay (1 year) permission to stay or long stay visa would be required to have a tax clearance. So nothing for immigration to do but check the certificate.

So would be relatively easy, anyone with a longer stay would be required to have tax clearance. No tax liability and the certificate shows that, liable for tax and paid the certificate shows that. No certificate no exit. Unpaid tax? No exit.

 

The laws on that are already on the books but almost never used. 
So is it possible? Absolutely. Is it easy for immigration? Yes reasonably as it’s the taxation department that is responsible for the certificate. Will it happen? Very probable no.

 

[CMBob]

36 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

So would be relatively easy, anyone with a longer stay would be required to have tax clearance. No tax liability and the certificate shows that, liable for tax and paid the certificate shows that. No certificate no exit. Unpaid tax? No exit.

No, I don't think I misunderstand.

Many expats have one year visas (more likely extensions) that only come here for 3-5 months for the winter and they and many full-year expats often take trips to neighboring countries during their stay.  So it's not just seeing a tax certificate....and the notion that the exit Immigration officers at the 4 (5?) international airports are going to be searching through a passport to count the days is rather silly in my opinion.   But we're just speculating as nothing is in place now or (according to many of the people giving talks about the new tax law) is likely to be in place until long into the future.  Then, when and if we get there, let's see how Thai Treasury has to deal with tax treaties that prevent what some sky-is-falling people are saying is going to happen (for one example only, the US/Thai tax treaty expressly states that Thailand cannot tax US social security benefits). 

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It is likely that they would require something like a P60, if given, or the relevant pages of your HMRC tax return, it is unlikely that pay slips would be accepted, also that a pension letter would be enough, however TIT and so different officer, different of office, different answers. also it is simple enough to assume taxable income is constant during a tax year and just use the faction cover erred by the Thai tax year for proof and project into the current untaxed, as yet, income.

There is a double taxation agreement between Thailand and the U.K. however as I understand not everything is actually covered so you would need advice from an accountant who is familiar with the agreement and thx laws.

 

As to your wife and son knowing the tax system, my opinion is that unless they actually work for the tax department or are tax accountants they probably don’t now anything more than that which effects them. 
My experience is that only a small minority of general taxpayers know and understand the system well and a smaller subset can cross check HMRC and an even smaller number know the majority of the system that isn’t directly relevant to them.

Thanks for getting back, will have to investigate if I could download or request a calander year something from HMRC.

Never done a tax return, always had  payroll departments to do that and since 5 years ago all my income sstreams are tax deducted at source or under tax free savings. Checked  on the online web page then  phoned  HMRC back then to double check if they wanted one, as I was trading a few stock (below the allowance at.that time) HMRC said no, we can see everything on their screenI  

I think the P60s are just circumstantial as they don't match the period applicable to a Thai return, could present them and see if the like general evidence of tax paid..

Thanks again.

 

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are assuming a far more complicated system of checks than would likely happen.

You report the number of days in county, the dates of each trip and the places. They will assume that these are correct unless someone has reported or they suspect you have misreported then they require proof and may well investigate. Get caught out misreporting and get investigated more thoroughly. Result you get a tax bill that will blow your socks off where if you don’t fight it and document it becomes your tax liability (this is how HMRC works).

 

There is already a law in place that requires a tax clearance document from the Treasury to allow you to exit Thailand, that it almost never enforced doesn’t mean it will never be enforced.

 

However if the law will ever get passed is another matter and if passed it is likely that they are going to concentrate on high net worth individuals as those are the ones who will have tax requirements in the hundreds of thousands. This in contrast to the U.K. where HMRC goes for the the little people as they don’t fight back.

I see the tax clearance RD page notes a period of over 90days.

I think you have to have tax liability determined / listed before it was flagged up.

I think it was late 90s early 2000s they discontinued enforcement for individuals. ( I remember some one commenting that the tax clearance cert was not a thing anymore about then  with some relief on his part.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, CMBob said:

Many expats have one year visas (more likely extensions) that only come here for 3-5 months for the winter and they and many full-year expats often take trips to neighboring countries during their stay.  So it's not just seeing a tax certificate....and the notion that the exit Immigration officers at the 4 (5?) international airports are going to be searching through a passport to count the days is rather silly in my opinion. 

You keep on harping on about immigration officers counting days when they would have nothing to do with that!!! And it’s you bringing up the notion that immigration officers would bother when it’s not their job.

 

It is the tax office who are concerned about tax residency. It is the TAX office who issue tax clearance certificates. It’s the tax office who count days
 

Just because “many full-year expats often take trips to neighboring countries during their stay.” means little if the requirement ever cam into law

[sometimewoodworker]

10 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

I see the tax clearance RD page notes a period of over 90days.

I think you have to have tax liability determined / listed before it was flagged up.

I think it was late 90s early 2000s they discontinued enforcement for individuals. ( I remember some one commenting that the tax clearance cert was not a thing anymore about then  with some relief on his part.

I recall seeing something about that, but like other laws/rules it could be revived if there was enough motivation for it. It probably won’t but you never know in Thailand.

[BE88]

What I notice is that the lack of decisions and above all clarifications from the government means that we have to think about making plans that can get us out of problems so all options are possible.

 

Before Covid many stayed here in Thailand for only 6 months so it's nothing new to see doing the same thing for the same time and it's an interesting experience to see new horizons but it's also possible to return to your country if you don't want to have new adventures like Bob proposes.

 

For those who have this fear of travelling I recommend you do nothing and wait.