Bye bye Thailand, thanks for nothing!

[mokwit]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There are several things I have expected them to do but haven't, yet, I'm certain they will at some point and these include:

 

- Long overdue increases in visa costs

- Revenue approval certificates to renew a visa and to exit the country

- Mandatory health insurance for everyone, regardless of visa or reason for stay

 

 

I would add home country criminal record check to that.

 

Revenue certificate to exit the country backfired on them for years after. The kind of professionals Thailand needed to work here for its development and who could work in any country avoided the country that "won't let you out without a mountain of paperwork."

 

I think the amount on deposit for one year extensions will increase - the mechanism for that might be to grandfather those on existing extensions but only allow new applications for the new visa types with steeper qualification requirements.

Edited December 11, 2023 by mokwit

[Presnock]

31 minutes ago, Geir Rasch said:

You asked in a post about being offended or insulted by being told to pay tax to Thailand. I wonder, how can one be offended or insulted when told to pay tax to the country you live in? I understand there is no profit for you paying tax to Thailand, only extra paperwork, but you live here by your own free will. Do you feel yourself so important to Thailand that it is insulting to ask you to pay tax?

yes, if I didn't already pay tax on all that I receive (already paid tax when I originally earned it)  and to avoid making people pay double tax, the sole purpose of the 59 countries that signed such an agreement with Thailand.  If I was "earning" any income here I would gladly pay a tax on that money.  I spend over 3 million baht per year here in Thailand, including tuition for schools from middle school through college.  I paid for my house including taxes and for the yearly muban fee.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, mokwit said:

Wasn't that Joanie [Mitchell]?

Yes indeed it was - my bad 

[noobexpat]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

and to avoid making people pay double tax, the sole purpose of the 59 countries that signed such an agreement with Thailand. 

 

As ever, wrong.

People not understanding the fundamental purpose of a DTA.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Geir Rasch said:

You asked in a post about being offended or insulted by being told to pay tax to Thailand. I wonder, how can one be offended or insulted when told to pay tax to the country you live in? I understand there is no profit for you paying tax to Thailand, only extra paperwork, but you live here by your own free will. Do you feel yourself so important to Thailand that it is insulting to ask you to pay tax?

I will assume you are ignorant of things like 90 day reporting to Police and annual applications to stay another 12 months and all the other impositions applied to Expats.  And also ignorant of all the 'rights and services' that Expats do get for free, without paying 2-5 times more than Thais. And also ignorant of the double standards and dual pricing and all the other krapp we have to just accept in order to live here,m with no legal rights and no votes (and we dont get that 10K handout, nor the Govt bonus programs for encouraging travel, or anything else - ever).  And again I will assume you are ignorant of the fact that the majority of Thais do not pay income taxes - nil - and that Expats pay a lot more VAT taxes than the majority of Thais

 

But, more than all that above (and more) I will assume you are also ignorant of the fact that when Expats like me first came to this country to retire, one of the key criteria was that Thailand did not tax money that is remitted into Thailand. Philippinnes, Indonesia, Malaysia etc., still do not tax foregner's income earned in the past and remitted into Thaiand - they either do not do it at all, or they have made exemption and allowances for foreign retirees and those marrying their citizens.  Thailand has changed the rules - with 3 months notice. And they have offered no benefits or additional rights to those they may be soon forcing to pay income taxes on money they saved for their retirements etc. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Remember that house I said was rent nearby that you might be interested in? Well, it's no longer available, at least it wont be after I set fire to it in a few hours.

 

More seriously, you understand as much about economics as you do about tax and doing cut and paste of baby speak explanations wont make me change my mind on that. Byeee, again!

Obviously I quote those items from Google searches to 'prove' what I am saying is correct and you are wrong (again).

Now you are joking about burning down a house - wow - be careful what you say at an airport on a plane - how about I just burn you.

Good bye. 

[Geir Rasch]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

yes, if I didn't already pay tax on all that I receive (already paid tax when I originally earned it)  and to avoid making people pay double tax, the sole purpose of the 59 countries that signed such an agreement with Thailand.  If I was "earning" any income here I would gladly pay a tax on that money.  I spend over 3 million baht per year here in Thailand, including tuition for schools from middle school through college.  I paid for my house including taxes and for the yearly muban fee.

Everybody that make enough money pay tax to the country they live in. We, as expats, also pay tax to our country of origin. This is the way it must be. How much money you spend on other things is irrelevant to tax.

[Mike Lister]

39 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I will assume you are ignorant of things like 90 day reporting to Police and annual applications to stay another 12 months and all the other impositions applied to Expats.  And also ignorant of all the 'rights and services' that Expats do get for free, without paying 2-5 times more than Thais. And also ignorant of the double standards and dual pricing and all the other krapp we have to just accept in order to live here,m with no legal rights and no votes (and we dont get that 10K handout, nor the Govt bonus programs for encouraging travel, or anything else - ever).  And again I will assume you are ignorant of the fact that the majority of Thais do not pay income taxes - nil - and that Expats pay a lot more VAT taxes than the majority of Thais

 

But, more than all that above (and more) I will assume you are also ignorant of the fact that when Expats like me first came to this country to retire, one of the key criteria was that Thailand did not tax money that is remitted into Thailand. Philippinnes, Indonesia, Malaysia etc., still do not tax foregner's income earned in the past and remitted into Thaiand - they either do not do it at all, or they have made exemption and allowances for foreign retirees and those marrying their citizens.  Thailand has changed the rules - with 3 months notice. And they have offered no benefits or additional rights to those they may be soon forcing to pay income taxes on money they saved for their retirements etc. 

Another self important and entitled farang thinks he deserves more, because he has more. Have you considered suing Thailand for breach of contract? Oh wait, there was no contract you say, hmmm, tricky that one then!

[Geir Rasch]

43 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I will assume you are ignorant of things like 90 day reporting to Police and annual applications to stay another 12 months and all the other impositions applied to Expats.  And also ignorant of all the 'rights and services' that Expats do get for free, without paying 2-5 times more than Thais. And also ignorant of the double standards and dual pricing and all the other krapp we have to just accept in order to live here,m with no legal rights and no votes (and we dont get that 10K handout, nor the Govt bonus programs for encouraging travel, or anything else - ever).  And again I will assume you are ignorant of the fact that the majority of Thais do not pay income taxes - nil - and that Expats pay a lot more VAT taxes than the majority of Thais

 

But, more than all that above (and more) I will assume you are also ignorant of the fact that when Expats like me first came to this country to retire, one of the key criteria was that Thailand did not tax money that is remitted into Thailand. Philippinnes, Indonesia, Malaysia etc., still do not tax foregner's income earned in the past and remitted into Thaiand - they either do not do it at all, or they have made exemption and allowances for foreign retirees and those marrying their citizens.  Thailand has changed the rules - with 3 months notice. And they have offered no benefits or additional rights to those they may be soon forcing to pay income taxes on money they saved for their retirements etc. 

I’m not ignorant about anything in Thailand. There are things I don’t like and things I think is stupid, but it is not my country and accept that I have no say in any matter. Like you I retire in Thailand. I have only lived here for 12 years, but all the years I have lived here I have been aware of thai tax law and paid my tax to Thailand.
Yes, like you I find 90 day reporting, double standards and dual prising annoying, but I do not spend energy on those issues. This is a third world country, so there are a lot of issues that is strange for us, but normal for them, so be it!

I thing both you and Thailand would be better of if you went back home to us. To much for you to cope with here.

[Ralf001]

6 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

300,000 Expats spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year (average across all of them) equates to 300 Billion Baht.

 

 

 

Got a link to this ?

[Mike Lister]

40 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Got a link to this ?

Of course he doesn't, he makes these things up. There aren't 300k expats in Thailand. There are around 150k Westerners but there are between 3 & 4 million foreigners, Cinese, Burmese, Cambodian and Laos mostly. Around 40k Brits live here, 

 

 

[Presnock]

15 hours ago, noobexpat said:

 

As ever, wrong.

People not understanding the fundamental purpose of a DTA.

 

I also realize that tghe host country (where one has 180+days of residence) IAW the DTA can charge income taxes - therefore at least the USA reimburses those taxes paid to the host govt.

[Presnock]

15 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

Everybody that make enough money pay tax to the country they live in. We, as expats, also pay tax to our country of origin. This is the way it must be. How much money you spend on other things is irrelevant to tax.

I agree, any earned income here in Thailand should pay income tax.  My money was earned over 40 years working in other countries but I paid the income tax to the USA.  Now I get a pension from the USA govt and they tax that money too.  They have a DTA with Thailand and if Thailand decides to tax my pension then the US govt will pay me back those funds paid to the Thais.  What do you think a Double tax avoidance agreement between governments means?

[PJ71]

14 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

There are around 150k Westerners

No chance the number is this low.

 

They'd be more than that in BKK alone.

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, PJ71 said:

No chance the number is this low.

 

They'd be more than that in BKK alone.

I posted a link to support my claim, where's yours?

[Mike Lister]

51 minutes ago, PJ71 said:

No chance the number is this low.

 

They'd be more than that in BKK alone.

The Bangkok Post article entitled, "Focussing on Foreigners". dated 25 September, 2023, says that in the first quarter of this year, the expat community totalled 156, 596, half of whom live in Bangkok. The top three nationalities are Japanese, Chinese and Indians. 

[PJ71]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The Bangkok Post article entitled, "Focussing on Foreigners". dated 25 September, 2023, says that in the first quarter of this year, the expat community totalled 156, 596, half of whom live in Bangkok. The top three nationalities are Japanese, Chinese and Indians. 

This continues to get funnier, you now think that there's only 77.800 western expats living elsewhere apart from bkk - really?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, PJ71 said:

This continues to get funnier, you now think that there's only 77.800 western expats living elsewhere apart from bkk - really?

That's what two sources say, do you have a link that says differently, or is it just you?

[PJ71]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

That's what two sources say, do you have a link that says differently, or is it just you?

I've just checked a couple of links ( Google ) and your numbers seem to be correct, which i'm very surprised about - my bad.

 

I thought there were many more than that!

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

I’m not ignorant about anything in Thailand. There are things I don’t like and things I think is stupid, but it is not my country and accept that I have no say in any matter. Like you I retire in Thailand. I have only lived here for 12 years, but all the years I have lived here I have been aware of thai tax law and paid my tax to Thailand.
Yes, like you I find 90 day reporting, double standards and dual prising annoying, but I do not spend energy on those issues. This is a third world country, so there are a lot of issues that is strange for us, but normal for them, so be it!

I thing both you and Thailand would be better of if you went back home to us. To much for you to cope with here.

I obviously assumed wrong that you were not aware of all the 'negatives', but maybe you are what we Aussies call 'a feral' - someone who has 'gone rogue' and joined 'the other team'. But maybe you are just totally 'aligned' and 'enlightened' with the Thai way of things, and you brag about paying income taxes as some sort of 'proof of allegiance'.  Sorry to burst your bubble Dorothy, but you will never ever (aside from Thai family and some Thai friends) become 'one of them'. If you want proof, just catch a plane to somewhere else in Thailand and walk down the street - you aint a 'local' buddy and never will be. 

 

But either way - it seems to me that you are a person with internal conflicts - saying what you just did and telling someone else where to live and where not to live.  Do you make the Thai family celebrate XMas or Birthdays etc., and do you dress like a Thai or a 'Farang' - are you 'all in' or are you 'part Farang part Thai'. - is that causing you some conflict  I say that because only a Farang with 'internal conflicts' would tell another Farang that Thailand (as if speaking on their behalf) would be better off without them living here - without knowing anything about them. 

 

Here is my 'advice' to you my friend - go take a long look in the mirror when no one else is around and ask yourself 'who am I'.  You are currently IMO someone that has jumped over to the 'Thai Side' of the fence, and it trying very hard to make that decision 'justified and correct'. You have failed to see that there is no fence, and it is not that hard to be on both sides.  That 'fence' is a false construct - you do not have to jump over anything. It is a 'divide' and one that you are lucky enough to be able to step over and back, as it best suits you and those around you.

 

Getting back to income taxes. I first came to live here over 10 years ago, and we returned here to live in retirement recently. One of the 'conditions' upon which that decision was made, was that Thailand does not tax the remittances of Expats living in Thailand. That money we planned to remit into Thailand is my Govt Pension and our savings made over a long period of time.  Changing that 'condition' with no notice is both unfair and unreasonable. But demanding that I and all Expats in my situation just accept that and pay taxes like they do, is the view of a person who needs to 'see' things far more 'broadly' - everyone has their own 'story' and they are not all like you. Mate. 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Got a link to this ?

1. google.com

2. multiple sources

3. because Thailand does not count them

4. my opinion from those sorces

5. got proof I am wrong? maybe a link?? 

[JimTripper]

What you really need as a retired person is a second citizenship. You should have been working on this years ago. It's never going to be stable as an expat without that second passport.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

39 minutes ago, PJ71 said:

This continues to get funnier, you now think that there's only 77.800 western expats living elsewhere apart from bkk - really?

Dont argue with it mate - wasting your time.

PS - That article was referring to 'employed' Expats living full time in Thailand. Not retired, not married, and not 'in business'. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

What you really need as a retired person is a second citizenship. You should have been working on this years ago. It's never going to be stable as an expat without that second passport.

I hear you Jim - but I approached a well known Legal firm who advised me that at my age and in mysitruation it was a watse of time.  Just getting permanent residency was extremely unlikely. Sure there is a catagory for 'supporting a wife' but I was without years of working/business and paying taxes and property ownerhsip etc etc etc.  

[Ralf001]

31 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

1. google.com

2. multiple sources

3. because Thailand does not count them

4. my opinion from those sorces

5. got proof I am wrong? maybe a link?? 

 

 

And thats the answer I was expecting.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

And thats the answer I was expecting.

Happy to oblige.

PS - so was yours 

[noobexpat]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

I also realize that tghe host country (where one has 180+days of residence) IAW the DTA can charge income taxes - therefore at least the USA reimburses those taxes paid to the host govt.

 

And still wrong.

Fundamental purpose of DTA is ....??

 

Does nobody know!

[Geir Rasch]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

I agree, any earned income here in Thailand should pay income tax.  My money was earned over 40 years working in other countries but I paid the income tax to the USA.  Now I get a pension from the USA govt and they tax that money too.  They have a DTA with Thailand and if Thailand decides to tax my pension then the US govt will pay me back those funds paid to the Thais.  What do you think a Double tax avoidance agreement between governments means?

This subject I have written quite some lines about. If you had read any of those you would not ask me what I think a double tax avoidance agreement between governments means :).

[Geir Rasch]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I obviously assumed wrong that you were not aware of all the 'negatives', but maybe you are what we Aussies call 'a feral' - someone who has 'gone rogue' and joined 'the other team'. But maybe you are just totally 'aligned' and 'enlightened' with the Thai way of things, and you brag about paying income taxes as some sort of 'proof of allegiance'.  Sorry to burst your bubble Dorothy, but you will never ever (aside from Thai family and some Thai friends) become 'one of them'. If you want proof, just catch a plane to somewhere else in Thailand and walk down the street - you aint a 'local' buddy and never will be. 

 

But either way - it seems to me that you are a person with internal conflicts - saying what you just did and telling someone else where to live and where not to live.  Do you make the Thai family celebrate XMas or Birthdays etc., and do you dress like a Thai or a 'Farang' - are you 'all in' or are you 'part Farang part Thai'. - is that causing you some conflict  I say that because only a Farang with 'internal conflicts' would tell another Farang that Thailand (as if speaking on their behalf) would be better off without them living here - without knowing anything about them. 

 

Here is my 'advice' to you my friend - go take a long look in the mirror when no one else is around and ask yourself 'who am I'.  You are currently IMO someone that has jumped over to the 'Thai Side' of the fence, and it trying very hard to make that decision 'justified and correct'. You have failed to see that there is no fence, and it is not that hard to be on both sides.  That 'fence' is a false construct - you do not have to jump over anything. It is a 'divide' and one that you are lucky enough to be able to step over and back, as it best suits you and those around you.

 

Getting back to income taxes. I first came to live here over 10 years ago, and we returned here to live in retirement recently. One of the 'conditions' upon which that decision was made, was that Thailand does not tax the remittances of Expats living in Thailand. That money we planned to remit into Thailand is my Govt Pension and our savings made over a long period of time.  Changing that 'condition' with no notice is both unfair and unreasonable. But demanding that I and all Expats in my situation just accept that and pay taxes like they do, is the view of a person who needs to 'see' things far more 'broadly' - everyone has their own 'story' and they are not all like you. Mate. 

 

You are a funny person. Here we have a discussion about tax, and from that you feel competent to analyse my personality!! Well, I think there is a word that describe such people. Have you heard about the Dunning-Kruger effect?

You said earlier that you did know that Thailand did not tax your pension, but now they have changed the laws. This tells me you are ignorant about tax laws in Thailand. If you ever har read information from Thai Revenue dept, you would know that if you are thai resident (lived here 180 days or more within a tax year) you are obliged to pay tax to Thailand for the pension you bring in to Thailand. That was the law when you first came here, and it still is the law. Nothing new about that!
Every year they make a document in English that describe every post in the tax document ( ภ.ง.ด.91) to declare your taxable income.

Another thing is how hard thai revenue dept work to get those tax money. We know that many thai pensioners do not pay tax to Thailand. Many of them because their pension are to low, but others are simply not followed up by the revenue dept. That is the reason for not following up on expat either. I once ask people at revenue dept why they did not follow up on us expat. The answer was that since they don't do that with thai pensioners, they could not be stricter with expats.
So there is nothing new about laws that concerns our tax liability, the only thing new is a possible stricter practice. 

[Mike Lister]

And when he says, "funny", he doesn't mean haha funny!