Bye bye Thailand, thanks for nothing!

[Freddy42OZ]

12 hours ago, Fr87 said:

 

I did that and sent you the link. There is a webpage stating fees but no fees.

 

No fees nor hyperlinks in Firefox

 

Fees are under Treatment Costs. 

Prices look very good compared to Bangkok.

 

[Jaggg88]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:41 AM, ujayujay said:

Why are pensioners with low pensions in particular penalized by the new tax system for foreigners!? Does the Thai government actually believe that this will result in more tax revenue at the end of the day? There will be an exodus of expats with the result that in certain places the property market will collapse and the purchasing power of those remaining will be reduced by the amount of tax they pay! This, in turn, affects small businesses that have been hit by the poor economy, which can then pay less taxes or have to go out of business! The fact that this whole story is being treated by the government like a secret mission (little information until Zero in the media) suggests that those responsible are not convinced of their case! In any case, I say no to the state raid on my pension and say byebye Thailand!

What is your opinion?

It's all nonsense - read this instead

https://www.pattayamail.com/latestnews/news/myths-about-thai-expats-and-those-income-tax-changes-starting-very-soon-447262

[Kalasin Jo]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:53 AM, Celsius said:

Hahaha.... this table must be a joke, right

No joke. The table is for real. My guess? This announcement is really aimed at existing wealthy Thai taxpayers investing abroad then remitting foreign income here. As usual here it's not been thought through before the announcement which has caused consternation or derision in expat circles.

Without more info and clarification it would seem to hit expats here, even pensioners on retirement extensions relying solely on their foreign pension income to live here, possibly supporting Thai spouses and families too. That would  be me! And those newly arriving on bringing in the required 800,000k for a retirement visa, 400,000k " marriage" visa, and permission extensions would on the face of it be liable to a substantial, albeit one off, tax charge.

According to an update The Thai Revenue arm of government has more recently said this change will not apply to 2023 remitted income but will to 2024 remitted income.

I understand tax declarations have to be made by March of the tax year, same as calendar  year here, following the tax year of remittance so still time for Thailand to do a u turn or clarify exactly who must declare what categories of income. Also for expats to decide whether to stay beyond 180 days in 2024. 180 days of being in country making one tax resident is not unusual in many countries. That Thailand chose not to require expats retired or not working here to register, declare foreign remitted income and pay any assessed tax is ( was?) a welcome encouragement to retire or marry a Thai and live here.

I've never had any dealings with Thai Revenue as on retirement so by definition therefore not working here, haven't bothered seeking to reclaim the withholding tax on the paltry interest paid on savings and deposit accounts that the banks here collect, so have no TIN, and anyway haven't always been here for the stipulated 180 days in the  tax year.

 

If, if, this does affect us then it seems to me that with effective lobbying this could be a tipping point. With a TIN, our declarations and tax assessments Thailand should stop treating us as forever annual long stay tourists, should give us full access to it's Universal Healthcare system, stop hitting us with dual pricing  and overhaul the visa / permission to stay system to give us temporary residency for X number of years, say 5, and on completion the right to permanent residency, so ending the endless annual applications, proof of money in the bank or monthly income, the re entry permits, the reporting requirements. In fact treat us as they do their citizens as many other, in particular EU, countries do, where the litmus test IS being registered in their tax systems which gives a social security number and access to their state healthcare and welfare benefits.

Anyone up for a bit of lobbying? My guess is that if there was enough coherent and organised lobbying from us they would rather continue with the status quo than give us those rights and benefits, lose a significant income stream from fees and fines (and half the Immigration Police would become redundant!).

[Mike Lister]

6 hours ago, Caldera said:

Every time an "expat exodus" and a subsequent "collapse" has been predicted, neither did happen.

 

I really can't take this nonsensical fear-mongering seriously anymore.

 

Yes, some more people will get taxed. Yes, for some of them that will be reason enough to leave. No, it won't amount to a mass exodus. No, it won't lead to any kind of collapse of parts of the Thai economy. Duh.

Best post in the entire thread.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

22 hours ago, Prubangboy said:

You gotta stop thinking of the $$ impact you have on the nice local people adjacent to you and think in terms of the macroeconomic.

An expat is much less spendy than an average tourist. Few are springing for the 150 baht durian ice cream cone, but yeah, we're big, big consumers of bottled water.

When I think of it, my landlord is a fellow New Yorker, 80% of the dining I do is in non-Thai owned places.

My biggest $$ contribution to Thai people is 1) Grab Cabs 2)Weed.

You gotta stop thinking all Expats are like yourself - we certainly are not.

We rent a 4br house - we recently bought a used Honda CRV - we travel around Thailand a lot - we spend a lot of money with Thais.

Our annual living budget in 1 Million Baht - plus in a few years I planned to buy a new car - and maybe one day we will buy a house.

Many Expats also have Thai families with kids that they support - we dont have kids but we do help out others.

There are lots of Expats just me who dont rent a small room in Pattaya or Patong or Bangkok and smoke weed and chase bar girls.

[hotandsticky]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You gotta stop thinking all Expats are like yourself - we certainly are not.

We rent a 4br house - we recently bought a used Honda CRV - we travel around Thailand a lot - we spend a lot of money with Thais.

Our annual living budget in 1 Million Baht - plus in a few years I planned to buy a new car - and maybe one day we will buy a house.

Many Expats also have Thai families with kids that they support - we dont have kids but we do help out others.

There are lots of Expats just me who dont rent a small room in Pattaya or Patong or Bangkok and smoke weed and chase bar girls.

 

 

I don't think these are mutually exclusive.  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 hours ago, Kalasin Jo said:

No joke. The table is for real. My guess? This announcement is really aimed at existing wealthy Thai taxpayers investing abroad then remitting foreign income here. As usual here it's not been thought through before the announcement which has caused consternation or derision in expat circles.

Without more info and clarification it would seem to hit expats here, even pensioners on retirement extensions relying solely on their foreign pension income to live here, possibly supporting Thai spouses and families too. That would  be me! And those newly arriving on bringing in the required 800,000k for a retirement visa, 400,000k " marriage" visa, and permission extensions would on the face of it be liable to a substantial, albeit one off, tax charge.

According to an update The Thai Revenue arm of government has more recently said this change will not apply to 2023 remitted income but will to 2024 remitted income.

I understand tax declarations have to be made by March of the tax year, same as calendar  year here, following the tax year of remittance so still time for Thailand to do a u turn or clarify exactly who must declare what categories of income. Also for expats to decide whether to stay beyond 180 days in 2024. 180 days of being in country making one tax resident is not unusual in many countries. That Thailand chose not to require expats retired or not working here to register, declare foreign remitted income and pay any assessed tax is ( was?) a welcome encouragement to retire or marry a Thai and live here.

I've never had any dealings with Thai Revenue as on retirement so by definition therefore not working here, haven't bothered seeking to reclaim the withholding tax on the paltry interest paid on savings and deposit accounts that the banks here collect, so have no TIN, and anyway haven't always been here for the stipulated 180 days in the  tax year.

 

If, if, this does affect us then it seems to me that with effective lobbying this could be a tipping point. With a TIN, our declarations and tax assessments Thailand should stop treating us as forever annual long stay tourists, should give us full access to it's Universal Healthcare system, stop hitting us with dual pricing  and overhaul the visa / permission to stay system to give us temporary residency for X number of years, say 5, and on completion the right to permanent residency, so ending the endless annual applications, proof of money in the bank or monthly income, the re entry permits, the reporting requirements. In fact treat us as they do their citizens as many other, in particular EU, countries do, where the litmus test IS being registered in their tax systems which gives a social security number and access to their state healthcare and welfare benefits.

Anyone up for a bit of lobbying? My guess is that if there was enough coherent and organised lobbying from us they would rather continue with the status quo than give us those rights and benefits, lose a significant income stream from fees and fines (and half the Immigration Police would become redundant!).

Well said - and if you are accused of being a 'fearmonger' for speaking out and stating your feelings about this matter - then welcome to the club.  I have said many things many times about this matter in other posts/threads and my position is very clear and is similar to yourself.

 

Not only is it probably the dumbest thing any Thai Govt has done to Expats, if they do want retired/married Expats to live here and want more to come, it is also the biggest discrimatory thing they have ever done to non-Thais.  Imposing income taxes on 'visitors' who bring their own money into the country, clearly shows how little regard that the Thai Govt has for Expats. When the Govt Electricity Agency recently announced a big increase in their prices next year, the Thai PM immediately jumped all over them.  But when the Govt Taxation Agency announces that they are going to tax the pensions and savings of all Expats who live in Thailand, when they bring their money into Thailand, there is nothing - crickets.  This is despite the massive amount of social media 'coverage' this matter is getting ever since the announcement in September. 

 

If I have an income tax burden imposed on myself that ends up being what it looks like it will be, then we are leaving Thailand for sure.  I am lucky - we dont own a house and we are not 'locked' into Thailand - I feel sorry for those that are and who also feel 'insulted' and 'offended' by this possible income tax imposition.  All of the Visa impositions are going to remain, but they are not going to give me any additional legal rights, or Govt services, and all the other racist crap like dual-pricing they impose on me will remain.  And let me tell you, my Thai Wife is a lot more angry about it - but being Thai she just keeps that to her self and me. 

 

Maybe for <20K a year I will stay - but only for the Thai Wife and Family. But if my calculations are correct and they demand I pay income taxes on all money remitted into Thailand - unless I can PROVE to Somchai at the local Tax Office that the money has already been taxed or is exempt, then we are out of here and will going forward be visiting - for less than 180 days a year. 

 

Yes these numbers below are worst case scenarios, but as things stand right now, they are valid assumptions and they iuse the current official taxation tables. Sure there is maybe another 100K of allowances I can 'claim', but they make very little difference when the numbers get bigger.  When planning on bringing into Thailand a large amount of money, say 5 million or 10 million Bajht, only an idiot would do so without absolute certainty. This is not a Visa matter that can be easily dealt with one way or the other. If I am hit with income taxes not planned for, I cannot just leave and take my money with me - it is locked in here. 

 

  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

25 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

I don't think these are mutually exclusive.  

 

Fair Call 

[thaibreaker]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:38 AM, Prubangboy said:

That's on a $25K annual remittance as per the table in this thread. If it comes to pass.

 

Many people here don't like that and are engaged in a war against arithmetic, I guess to go along with the war on Christmas.

 

When you lived in the UK, were you happy to see Non-Doms taxed? Did you, like most people there, want them taxed even more?

 

Well, welcome to shoe on the other foot-land. 

 

Swissie, one of our deepest thinkers, had a good thread called "The Doors Are Slamming Shut". He meant on low income retiree's options world-wide. Poor places will def be looking to expats to pay up,

You are aware that pensioners over 65 years of age get a deduction of 190.000 baht? Include that, and your 216 USD a month tax will be considerably less.

There are also other deductions, if you have a wife, kids etc.

 

Scandinavian pensioners have been paying these taxes in Thailand for many years already. We really don't see what the fuss is all about.

Edited December 10, 2023 by thaibreaker

[keith101]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:55 AM, keith101 said:

If the age pension for some stupid reason is also a part of this new tax i will be leaving LOS

Looked through the new tax laws and Pensions are exempt for now anyway

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, keith101 said:

Looked through the new tax laws and Pensions are exempt for now anyway

Even though if they were not exempt, I as a US citizen would be reimbursed for any amount taken out by the Thais, just the additional hassle of having to do the added paper work would just be another unneeded reason for some to leave.  There is not much that the Thais could alter in the immigration status that would drive me out but, who knows just how far they might go for the chance at another baht/dollar.  Anxious to listen to the 15 Dec presentation of the Thai American Chamber of Commerce to see if anyone has the final plan coming out in Jan.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/8/2023 at 3:41 PM, ujayujay said:

Why are pensioners with low pensions in particular penalized by the new tax system for foreigners!?

What are you on about? 0% up to 150 k and 5% up to 300 k. That's not much considering how much average Thais earn.

 

You wouldn't like NZ then, taxed from $1. To be clear, taxed from one dollar, no exemptions for medical unless on the poverty line, and still pay GST same as a millionaire. Pensioners get sod all assistance.

[DavisH]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:02 AM, beautifulthailand99 said:

Thailand has always screwed the poor that's why it's so cheap to live here relatively. As a quid pro quo though they should probably have just one price at the parks and attractions. After Covid virtually every counrty is in big trouble, half the councils in Britain are going bust as well as most of the public servies in one way or another so it's not surprising that every goverment is looking to shakdeown all the money that they can.

The vast majority of Thais don't pay any tax at all. 

 

Taxing foreign income is aimed at rich Thais with sources of income from overseas. 

 

It was never aimed at foreigners and their pensions. If there is a double tax agreement with your home country, you won't get taxed again. 

Just keep your money overseas and use your atm card to make withdrawals. 

 

[DavisH]

22 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You gotta stop thinking all Expats are like yourself - we certainly are not.

We rent a 4br house - we recently bought a used Honda CRV - we travel around Thailand a lot - we spend a lot of money with Thais.

Our annual living budget in 1 Million Baht - plus in a few years I planned to buy a new car - and maybe one day we will buy a house.

Many Expats also have Thai families with kids that they support - we dont have kids but we do help out others.

There are lots of Expats just me who dont rent a small room in Pattaya or Patong or Bangkok and smoke weed and chase bar girls.

You are just a drop in the ocean. All expat pensioners could leave Thailand tomorrow and it won't make a lick of difference in the total economy of the country. 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, DavisH said:

You are just a drop in the ocean. All expat pensioners could leave Thailand tomorrow and it won't make a lick of difference in the total economy of the country. 

I did that calculation once and the numbers came out to be between 3% and 4% of GDP so not significant at all. But where it would hurt is Consumer Spending, not huge but significant impact.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, DavisH said:

You are just a drop in the ocean. All expat pensioners could leave Thailand tomorrow and it won't make a lick of difference in the total economy of the country. 

300,000 Expats spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year (average across all of them) equates to 300 Billion Baht.

That amount when compared to the average 42K spend by each tourist, equates to 7.14 Million tourists. 

TAT would kill for another 7.14 million tourists - it aint a drop in the Ocean mate - far from it.

Revenue likely to miss target by B300bn (bangkokpost.com)

 

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

300,000 Expats spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year (average across all of them) equates to 300 Billion Baht.

That amount when compared to the average 42K spend by each tourist, equates to 7.14 Million tourists. 

TAT would kill for another 7.14 million tourists - it aint a drop in the Ocean mate - far from it.

Revenue likely to miss target by B300bn (bangkokpost.com)

 

Even if we used your figures which are far too high, 300 billion Baht is roughly USD 8.8 bill. or 1.7% of GDP........that's a nothing amount.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Even if we used your figures which are far too high, 300 billion Baht is roughly USD 8.8 bill. or 1.7% of GDP........that's a nothing amount.

As per my last post - see above:

 

300,000 Expats spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year (average across all of them) equates to 300 Billion Baht.

That amount when compared to the average 42K spend by each tourist, equates to 7.14 Million tourists. 

 

The GDP economy you are quoting is not the 'real economy'. The GDP includes all the macro level spending and purchasing, and includes Govt expenditures and spending on services including medical, educational and military etc. 

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

As per my last post - see above:

 

300,000 Expats spending an average of 1 Million Baht a year (average across all of them) equates to 300 Billion Baht.

That amount when compared to the average 42K spend by each tourist, equates to 7.14 Million tourists. 

 

The GDP economy you are quoting is not the 'real economy'. The GDP includes all the macro level spending and purchasing, and includes Govt expenditures and spending on services including medical, educational and military etc. 

Are you suggesting the GDP of Thailand at USD525 billion, doesn't include everything that is purchase, sold or made? Because if you are and you appear to be doing so, making the GDP number bigger makes the expat percentage even smaller!

Edited December 11, 2023 by Mike Lister

[ravip]

On 12/9/2023 at 7:33 PM, Caldera said:

Every time an "expat exodus" and a subsequent "collapse" has been predicted, neither did happen.

 

I really can't take this nonsensical fear-mongering seriously anymore.

 

Yes, some more people will get taxed. Yes, for some of them that will be reason enough to leave. No, it won't amount to a mass exodus. No, it won't lead to any kind of collapse of parts of the Thai economy. Duh.

Absolutely correct.

[BigStar]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:32 PM, BE88 said:

Well said Bob, we are not at all linked to Thailand where they don't want to integrate us due to pure racism

 

You mean, Malaysians, Indonesians, and Filipinos, same race, are treated differently?

 

Besides, integration doesn't work well, as seen in Europe and the USA. Good on Thais for keeping Thailand for Thais and Thai culture. Same w/ Japanese and Asian countries in general.

 

On 12/8/2023 at 5:32 PM, BE88 said:

So if they continue to bust my balls I have no problem with changing country.

 

You have them? Ouch! Better just to leave now.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Are you suggesting the GDP of Thailand at USD525 billion, doesn't include everything that is purchase, sold or made? Because if you are and you appear to be doing so, making the GDP number bigger makes the expat percentage even smaller!

 

GDP measures the monetary value of final goods and services—that is, those that are bought by the final user—produced in a country in a given period of time (say a quarter or a year). It counts all of the output generated within the borders of a country. GDP is composed of goods and services produced for sale in the market and also includes some nonmarket production, such as defense or education services provided by the government.

Gross Domestic Product: An Economy’s All (imf.org)

 

The PM does not go and greet each car as it rolls off the Honda factory floor - like they do for tourists.

 

300M Expats (there are 100K Japanese Expats alone - they are the biggest number) equals 7.14 million tourists EVERY year guaranteed. 

 

By the term 'Expats' (my definition) means retired, married, working people who are living full-time in Thailand from 1st world countries.  

There are 3.5 to 4 million Expats living and working in Thailand full time - the vast majority are from Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar. 

 

Your 'argument' is as lost in reality, and is obviosuly wrong because it is the same 'argument' that Thai authorities believe about Expats.  As Janis said many years ago "you dont know what you've got, 'til it's gone".   IMO the 'paradise' that is Thailand is being turned into a parking lot. 

[mokwit]

35 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

As Janis said many years ago "you dont know what you've got, 'til it's gone". 

Wasn't that Joanie [Mitchell]?

[Geir Rasch]

On 12/9/2023 at 4:18 PM, Presnock said:

how can it reduce? tax office in home country will only reimburse that money taken by the Thais

 

There are two different system.
.1. Your tax to your home country will be reduced with the tax paid to Thailand. The effect of this is zero. I believe this is the system used by usa.
2. Your taxable income in your home country is reduced with the amount taxed in Thailand. That gives two low income taxed in two different countries. Because of a progressiv tax system the total tax will be lower than if all income was taxed in your home country. I’m glad my home country follow this rule.

[Geir Rasch]

On 12/9/2023 at 12:59 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You asked in a post about being offended or insulted by being told to pay tax to Thailand. I wonder, how can one be offended or insulted when told to pay tax to the country you live in? I understand there is no profit for you paying tax to Thailand, only extra paperwork, but you live here by your own free will. Do you feel yourself so important to Thailand that it is insulting to ask you to pay tax?

[mokwit]

5 minutes ago, Geir Rasch said:

You asked in a post about being offended or insulted by being told to pay tax to Thailand. I wonder, how can one be offended or insulted when told to pay tax to the country you live in? I understand there is no profit for you paying tax to Thailand, only extra paperwork, but you live here by your own free will. Do you feel yourself so important to Thailand that it is insulting to ask you to pay tax?

They changed the deal on us. we were not able to factor this into our decision.

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

GDP measures the monetary value of final goods and services—that is, those that are bought by the final user—produced in a country in a given period of time (say a quarter or a year). It counts all of the output generated within the borders of a country. GDP is composed of goods and services produced for sale in the market and also includes some nonmarket production, such as defense or education services provided by the government.

Gross Domestic Product: An Economy’s All (imf.org)

 

The PM does not go and greet each car as it rolls off the Honda factory floor - like they do for tourists.

 

300M Expats (there are 100K Japanese Expats alone - they are the biggest number) equals 7.14 million tourists EVERY year guaranteed. 

 

By the term 'Expats' (my definition) means retired, married, working people who are living full-time in Thailand from 1st world countries.  

There are 3.5 to 4 million Expats living and working in Thailand full time - the vast majority are from Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar. 

 

Your 'argument' is as lost in reality, and is obviosuly wrong because it is the same 'argument' that Thai authorities believe about Expats.  As Janis said many years ago "you dont know what you've got, 'til it's gone".   IMO the 'paradise' that is Thailand is being turned into a parking lot. 

Remember that house I said was rent nearby that you might be interested in? Well, it's no longer available, at least it wont be after I set fire to it in a few hours.

 

More seriously, you understand as much about economics as you do about tax and doing cut and paste of baby speak explanations wont make me change my mind on that. Byeee, again!

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, mokwit said:

They changed the deal on us. we were not able to factor this into our decision.

If you believed they would never change the deal, you were very deluded.

[mokwit]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If you believed they would never change the deal, you were very deluded.

So, which will they change next then? This was in place for 38 years.

 

I don't believe they won't change the deal on us - that is why I don't recommend Thailand as a resettlement retirement destination. It is fine for people who have somewhere to go back to.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, mokwit said:

So, which will they change next then? This was in place for 38 years.

 

I don't believe they won't change the deal on us - that is why I don't recommend Thailand as a resettlement retirement destination. It is fine for people who have somewhere to go back to.

There are several things I have expected them to do but haven't, yet, I'm certain they will at some point and these include:

 

- Long overdue increases in visa costs

- Revenue approval certificates to renew a visa and to exit the country

- Mandatory health insurance for everyone, regardless of visa or reason for stay